So 1 million people repeating the same unfounded assertion makes it true?
Let's see:
jobs is god 285,000,000 hits
google sucks 98,800,800 hits
rich is a moron 5,880,000 hits
Since all of those got more hits than 'apple maps wrong', they must be more true, right?
How can you possibly say that an assertion that has been backed by Apple CEO Tim Cook ("At Apple, we strive to make world-class products that deliver the best experience possible to our customers. With the launch of our new Maps last week, we fell short on this commitment.") has no founding?
Just like people who bitched when the iPad got ever so slightly thicker and heavier (to accommodate that brilliant retina display) and now are bitching that the iPhone 5 is too thin and light and feels like a cheap toy. It's basically heads I win tails you lose.
If I make small shoes, the people with big feet complain.
If I make big shoes, the people with small feet complain.
Complain complain complain. That's what these forums are all about.
Cut to WWDC 2013 with Schmidt (a la Bill Gates) on the gigantic screen greeting Cook ( who in return will welcome him with open arms) and iFans. Google will be back with their new Map App with both Street and Resident View. And all will be right in the world.
That imaginary scene is some kind of Fandroid pornography.
Meanwhile, in the real world, Apple is working to improve Maps.
Maps will never be fixed until it gets a built-in street view. We'd been spoiled.
You better return that phone now because Street View is protected IP of Google and thus will never be 'built in' as they don't license it to those using other map data.
I think that the Street Viewer app for iOS uses a Google backend. Apparently, they will also offer Google Maps for the map view in Oct.
eventually, migrate all Apple mapping to the new backend
avoid the problems when trying to change everything at once ala MobileMe
I think #1 is most important in that it prevents Google from tracking millions of iDevices and using billions of map requests to refine the Google backend.
I suspect that a statistician could plot the tipping point that results from removing billions of requests from Google and moving them to Apple.
You make a good point, with which I would combine Gruber's suggestions:
Apple doesn't have infinite development resources and migration away from Google maps in iOS was highest priority. Migration away from Google maps in iCloud can take place at Apple's relative leisure over the coming year.
The more I explore Apple Maps, the more I like it. This first 1.0 release already beats Google Maps even with it's flaws.
1. Vector based maps.
2. FlyOver
3. Turn-by-turn direction.
4. Point of interest Info, Reviews, Photos
5. Siri integration.
If you honestly explore these things on the new iPad or the new iPhone the superiority is so obvious.
I can wait for Bus, Train, Subway, Bike, Walking, Boat, Underwater/Submarine routes to be integrated world wide.
No single company can provide all this information for the entire world so many 3rd parties will do the job.
Not to mention information like demographic, political, financial, crime etc that will be provided by third party.
It a whole new gold rush folks. Apple has reinvented portable mapping...
If Google is smart, they will embrace and extend Apple Maps by developing 3rd party layers for Apple Maps that will make use of Google Backend Data because the Apple architecture is much better. You will soon see a booming Apple Maps add-on layer market from 3rd parties all over the world. Does Google wants to stand by and let others take that market on Apple Maps when it already has valuable data?
Check out this demo of PolicyMaps, which is based on PlaceBase; a company that Apple purchased years ago to integrate in Apple Maps.
Yes! Thanks for that link. I wish the old PlaceBase and PushPin (API) sites were still up... It was amazing to see the things you could do with map overlays...
How can you possibly say that an assertion that has been backed by Apple CEO Tim Cook ("At Apple, we strive to make world-class products that deliver the best experience possible to our customers. With the launch of our new Maps last week, we fell short on this commitment.") has no founding?
I never said any such thing.
"we fall short of making THE BEST EXPERIENCE POSSIBLE" is one thing. Everyone here is pretending that he said "our app is no good and we should never have released it" - which is an entirely different statement.
He said that it wasn't the best experience possible. Big deal. Nothing in computers is the best experience possible as long as someone can see a way to improve it. That's not an admission of failure.
With Apple, since the Apple ][ it has always been the "software" that sets Apple "hardware" apart from the others.
In earlier machines or peripherals * much of the "software" was in the ROMS, PROMS and EPROMS. This has evolved to where most of the "software" is in the OS and apps.
* the Integrated Woz Machine on the Apple Disk ][ and the Mac
As "services" become more-integrated into the OS, they and their supporting "software", essentially, become part of the "hardware".
"It just works" would not be possible without the software to make it happen!
Problem is it doesn't always "just work". Maps is case in point. iTunes Match and iCloud don't always "just work".
Without the software, it wouldn't work at all! Get real -- Apple has never been a "Hardware only" company -- I have 34 years experience using, buying, reselling, co-developing and programming their products. The Apple ][ had a built-in (ROM) Assembler/Debugger, Integer BASIC, Hi and Lo-res graphics, TV Typewriter... All "software" that enabled the "hardware" to do something. Even the maimframe and mini computers of that day could not match the Apple ][ built-in software.
I just tried the turn by turn navigation on my iphone 4s running IOS 6 on a drive down to San Diego, and I thought it had a much better interface than my Garmin. It definitely shows a lot of potential to be the best GPS mapping app.
Apple could have explained the problem with something like:
"We wanted to bring the best and most up-to-date mapping services to our iOS customers. Unfortunately, we were unable to negotiate an agreement with Google to provide those services... so we decided to built a new mapping service from the ground up. We are late to the game, but we will work to provide the best solution to our customers!"
This is a statement of fact -- not a blame game or pissing contest. However, the observer can "read between the lines", do a little research, surmise what happened, and assign any blame as they see fit.
Had they done it this way, likely, half of the bloggers/journalists would have taken Apple's side and made Tim's apology unnecessary.
Finally, All this bad publicity and Tim's apology -- is still publicity.
Apple has accepted the challenge in the public forum -- now, all they need do is "perform" and fix the problems. Once they do that, they will have a net gain from the publicity... one step back, then a leap forward for Apple.
Except that you would have a bunch of users saying "how can the richest company in the world not care enough about its users to pony-up what Google wanted for their complete mapping services" or the like. The apology was unnecessary, and this all would have settled down in a few weeks just like any other "Applegate" issue has. iOS6 has only been officially released for a week or so, so it is natural to have all eyes on it. As people calm down and the emotion subsides I like to think that rational thought would have returned.
Apple did what had to be done. It wasn't painless, but now they can look towards the future and can do it their way for their customers. They are no longer at the mercy of Google for their mapping. This is an admirable position to be in, not being dependent on a competitor. Does anyone doubt that Apple will address any outstanding issues in a very short time-frame? There are alternatives out there, but Apple looked weak in pointing them out publicly.
I disagree with your first paragraph! If Google were not willing to provide the services -- how does being "the richest company in the world" solve the problem. I can't buy if you won't sell! Or, I won't sell my farm to buy your plow.
I believe that Tim handled the situation exactly right.
They could not negotiate an agreement! We can argue the reasons... but we do not know!
Another brilliant piece, calling for Forstall's head over maps, basically the guy wh architected iOS and is most responsible for Apple's current success after Jobs.
These arm-chair analysts, who have never done anything worthwhile in their lives, are disgusting. Yeah, Forstall should be 'fired'. Who will take his place? The writer? What a bunch of vicious, "kick them when they're down" baboons. What an utter lack of perspective. The guy is in charge of the most successful mobile OS on the planet. Give him a shred of credit, you fuckwits. He's the closest thing to a Jobs that Apple has, or will ever have. Maybe SJ should have quit after any one of the number of "blunders" under his watch too?
I agree that calling for Forstall's head is premature at this time. But I disagree that he's the closest we have to Steve. Though I don't doubt HE thinks he's a mini-Steve. But let's face it both maps and Siri are a bit of an embarrassment. Half the time Siri doesn't work for me. And most people I know who have an iPhone spent more time trying to stump Siri and once that novelty wore off they hardly use it anymore. And the biggest 'wow' we got with Siri in iOS 6 is providing sports scores? Really? That's the best Forstall and team can do?
Personally I think the hardware teams don't get enough credit. What they did with the A6 chip and getting all that amazing technology in a thinner and lighter device blows away anything the iOS team did with iOS 6 IMO.
Without the software, it wouldn't work at all! Get real -- Apple has never been a "Hardware only" company -- I have 34 years experience using, buying, reselling, co-developing and programming their products. The Apple ][ had a built-in (ROM) Assembler/Debugger, Integer BASIC, Hi and Lo-res graphics, TV Typewriter... All "software" that enabled the "hardware" to do something. Even the maimframe and mini computers of that day could not match the Apple ][ built-in software.
I never suggested they were ONLY a hardware company. I just believe if you had to weight the two I'd weight it more towards hardware right now. For me the biggest improvements with the new iPad and iPhone 5 are on the hardware side, not iOS. And same thing with the new Macabook Pro. These are amazing hardware engineering feats.
Take a course in critical thinking. Nothing in Cook's letter says that they made a mistake, nor does it say that it's not as good as Google's app.
You might want to start by reading the letter for comprehension instead of simply pretending that it says what you want it to say.
You don't have to worry about me, though thank you for your concern.
But do you really think parsing the explicit meaning of Tom Cook's lame apology is going to make a hill-of-beans difference to all the iPhone users who buy their phones at Walmart?
No matter what you infer from Tim Cook's apology letter, and it is far from definitive, the media, and Apple's competitors and detractors, have all spun it the worst possible way.
While I appreciate your position, and would love to believe there is no other way to interpret his words, it is simply not the case. You would therefore be doing all of us who support Apple a great service by illustrating exactly how you have parsed the letter line-by-line, so that we may all benifit by your insight in our efforts to make our collective case.
Otherwise, I see the Maps arguments as finished, point Google, until Google or Apple introduce some new aspect to the discussion in a month or two for further consideration.
Without the software, it wouldn't work at all! Get real -- Apple has never been a "Hardware only" company -- I have 34 years experience using, buying, reselling, co-developing and programming their products. The Apple ][ had a built-in (ROM) Assembler/Debugger, Integer BASIC, Hi and Lo-res graphics, TV Typewriter... All "software" that enabled the "hardware" to do something. Even the maimframe and mini computers of that day could not match the Apple ][ built-in software.
I never suggested they were ONLY a hardware company. I just believe if you had to weight the two I'd weight it more towards hardware right now. For me the biggest improvements with the new iPad and iPhone 5 are on the hardware side, not iOS. And same thing with the new Macabook Pro. These are amazing hardware engineering feats.
Now, you are just being stubborn. How do you know what changes were made to iOS... say to support the 3 new, more-powerful CPU cores, a larger screen, and more RAM increased performance -- all without reducing battery life. There are things in iOS 6 that we have yet to see. There are people playing 2K and 4K videos on an iPad -- that requires very powerful hardware and software support.
Before you downgrade the iOS changes, I suggest you become an iOS developer and see just what is contained, and what has changed in iOS.
If Apple decides it really has mapping problems, they should just BUY Nokia which also owns Navtaq. Nokia's total net-worth is only $10 billion and the Navteq portion of that is estimated to be $1 billion.
I'm sure Apple wants to run the failing phone maker (good tech chops/formerly good company/missed the smart phone wave) most committed to Win 8 Phones... ...and meanwhile, Finland would declare war on California if AAPL tried to dismantle the company for its IP.......
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse
You might as well be asking, why does Google try to destroy the competition in every market they enter?
Because, for Google to be successful, they have to eliminate alternatives to add based content and services, or such is their belief and overall business strategy for years now.
Because Google wants to control access to all information, so everyone has to go through them, so they know everything about everyone.
Because Page is a psychopathic megalomaniac mentored by the utterly devoid of all morals Schmidt.
It doesn't even have to be rational when the people running the company have a Pinky and the Brain mentality.
You realize many have made most of these same (and analogous) charges about many companies, most notably (in chronological order), Microsoft and Apple. Well, actually since you're a rabies victim (foaming at the mouth), you may well not, and the chronology would just be too tedious, and for the reasonable and well-versed, superfluous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chadmatic
The New York Times?! Nobody reads that rag anymore.
The bad news: Unfortunately many do.
The good: Last I heard they were still bleeding money year after year....
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
Exactly how far behind is Windows behind Mac OS X?
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
So 1 million people repeating the same unfounded assertion makes it true?
Let's see:
jobs is god 285,000,000 hits
google sucks 98,800,800 hits
rich is a moron 5,880,000 hits
Since all of those got more hits than 'apple maps wrong', they must be more true, right?
How can you possibly say that an assertion that has been backed by Apple CEO Tim Cook ("At Apple, we strive to make world-class products that deliver the best experience possible to our customers. With the launch of our new Maps last week, we fell short on this commitment.") has no founding?
And it's all about comparing results...
rich is a genius: 80,700,000 hits
:P
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan
Just like people who bitched when the iPad got ever so slightly thicker and heavier (to accommodate that brilliant retina display) and now are bitching that the iPhone 5 is too thin and light and feels like a cheap toy. It's basically heads I win tails you lose.
If I make small shoes, the people with big feet complain.
If I make big shoes, the people with small feet complain.
Complain complain complain. That's what these forums are all about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iSheldon
Cut to WWDC 2013 with Schmidt (a la Bill Gates) on the gigantic screen greeting Cook ( who in return will welcome him with open arms) and iFans. Google will be back with their new Map App with both Street and Resident View. And all will be right in the world.
That imaginary scene is some kind of Fandroid pornography.
Meanwhile, in the real world, Apple is working to improve Maps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna
Quote:
Originally Posted by iSheldon
Maps will never be fixed until it gets a built-in street view. We'd been spoiled.
You better return that phone now because Street View is protected IP of Google and thus will never be 'built in' as they don't license it to those using other map data.
I think that the Street Viewer app for iOS uses a Google backend. Apparently, they will also offer Google Maps for the map view in Oct.
http://streetviewer-en.mymapplus.com
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
Here is what I think Apple is doing:
getting mobile mapping off of Google ASAP
eventually, migrate all Apple mapping to the new backend
avoid the problems when trying to change everything at once ala MobileMe
I think #1 is most important in that it prevents Google from tracking millions of iDevices and using billions of map requests to refine the Google backend.
I suspect that a statistician could plot the tipping point that results from removing billions of requests from Google and moving them to Apple.
You make a good point, with which I would combine Gruber's suggestions:
http://daringfireball.net/2012/09/timing_of_apples_map_switch
Apple doesn't have infinite development resources and migration away from Google maps in iOS was highest priority. Migration away from Google maps in iCloud can take place at Apple's relative leisure over the coming year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleSauce007
The more I explore Apple Maps, the more I like it. This first 1.0 release already beats Google Maps even with it's flaws.
1. Vector based maps.
2. FlyOver
3. Turn-by-turn direction.
4. Point of interest Info, Reviews, Photos
5. Siri integration.
If you honestly explore these things on the new iPad or the new iPhone the superiority is so obvious.
I can wait for Bus, Train, Subway, Bike, Walking, Boat, Underwater/Submarine routes to be integrated world wide.
No single company can provide all this information for the entire world so many 3rd parties will do the job.
Not to mention information like demographic, political, financial, crime etc that will be provided by third party.
It a whole new gold rush folks. Apple has reinvented portable mapping...
If Google is smart, they will embrace and extend Apple Maps by developing 3rd party layers for Apple Maps that will make use of Google Backend Data because the Apple architecture is much better. You will soon see a booming Apple Maps add-on layer market from 3rd parties all over the world. Does Google wants to stand by and let others take that market on Apple Maps when it already has valuable data?
Check out this demo of PolicyMaps, which is based on PlaceBase; a company that Apple purchased years ago to integrate in Apple Maps.
http://www.policymap.com/demo.html
Time will tell.
Yes! Thanks for that link. I wish the old PlaceBase and PushPin (API) sites were still up... It was amazing to see the things you could do with map overlays...
...Coming Soon -- to your Mac and iDevices!
I never said any such thing.
"we fall short of making THE BEST EXPERIENCE POSSIBLE" is one thing. Everyone here is pretending that he said "our app is no good and we should never have released it" - which is an entirely different statement.
He said that it wasn't the best experience possible. Big deal. Nothing in computers is the best experience possible as long as someone can see a way to improve it. That's not an admission of failure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
With Apple, since the Apple ][ it has always been the "software" that sets Apple "hardware" apart from the others.
In earlier machines or peripherals * much of the "software" was in the ROMS, PROMS and EPROMS. This has evolved to where most of the "software" is in the OS and apps.
* the Integrated Woz Machine on the Apple Disk ][ and the Mac
As "services" become more-integrated into the OS, they and their supporting "software", essentially, become part of the "hardware".
"It just works" would not be possible without the software to make it happen!
Problem is it doesn't always "just work". Maps is case in point. iTunes Match and iCloud don't always "just work".
Without the software, it wouldn't work at all! Get real -- Apple has never been a "Hardware only" company -- I have 34 years experience using, buying, reselling, co-developing and programming their products. The Apple ][ had a built-in (ROM) Assembler/Debugger, Integer BASIC, Hi and Lo-res graphics, TV Typewriter... All "software" that enabled the "hardware" to do something. Even the maimframe and mini computers of that day could not match the Apple ][ built-in software.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iSteelers
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
Apple could have explained the problem with something like:
"We wanted to bring the best and most up-to-date mapping services to our iOS customers. Unfortunately, we were unable to negotiate an agreement with Google to provide those services... so we decided to built a new mapping service from the ground up. We are late to the game, but we will work to provide the best solution to our customers!"
This is a statement of fact -- not a blame game or pissing contest. However, the observer can "read between the lines", do a little research, surmise what happened, and assign any blame as they see fit.
Had they done it this way, likely, half of the bloggers/journalists would have taken Apple's side and made Tim's apology unnecessary.
Finally, All this bad publicity and Tim's apology -- is still publicity.
Apple has accepted the challenge in the public forum -- now, all they need do is "perform" and fix the problems. Once they do that, they will have a net gain from the publicity... one step back, then a leap forward for Apple.
Except that you would have a bunch of users saying "how can the richest company in the world not care enough about its users to pony-up what Google wanted for their complete mapping services" or the like. The apology was unnecessary, and this all would have settled down in a few weeks just like any other "Applegate" issue has. iOS6 has only been officially released for a week or so, so it is natural to have all eyes on it. As people calm down and the emotion subsides I like to think that rational thought would have returned.
Apple did what had to be done. It wasn't painless, but now they can look towards the future and can do it their way for their customers. They are no longer at the mercy of Google for their mapping. This is an admirable position to be in, not being dependent on a competitor. Does anyone doubt that Apple will address any outstanding issues in a very short time-frame? There are alternatives out there, but Apple looked weak in pointing them out publicly.
I disagree with your first paragraph! If Google were not willing to provide the services -- how does being "the richest company in the world" solve the problem. I can't buy if you won't sell! Or, I won't sell my farm to buy your plow.
I believe that Tim handled the situation exactly right.
They could not negotiate an agreement! We can argue the reasons... but we do not know!
Originally Posted by mstone
She is already a sassy bitch you don't need to encourage her.
*ding ding* "I heard that." *ding ding*
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
Me: "Siri: How do I get to Carnegie Hall?"
Siri: "Turn left on..."
You were expecting "Siri: Practice, practice, practice"?
I think I'd actually prefer a 1 in 10 chance that she appends "and you should probably learn an instrument" to the instructions for that.
Throw in little jokes like that every so often in addition to the proper info.
Me: "Siri: Crosstown busses run all night?"
Siri: "Doo-Dah, Doo-Dah!"
Me: "Siri: Call me an ambulance!"
Siri: "Right... you're an ambulance"
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
But no, they had to get up on the stage and proclaim it was the most powerful and most elegant mapping solution the world has ever known.
Wrong.
As with all things Apple the "proclamation" was that it was the "most powerful and most elegant mapping solution" Apple products had ever known.
Fastest IPHONE yet, thinnest iPhone yet, etc.
Apple always make announcements comparing THEIR OWN products, new against old.
People ALWAYS misrepresent that as saying better than ANY OTHER product.
Why?
Because it's an easy way to smear Apple.
Personally I think the hardware teams don't get enough credit. What they did with the A6 chip and getting all that amazing technology in a thinner and lighter device blows away anything the iOS team did with iOS 6 IMO.
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
Me: "Siri: Crosstown busses run all night?"
Siri: "Doo Dah, Doo, Dah!"
Me: "Siri: Call me an ambulance!"
Siri: "Right... you're an ambulance"
You: "Siri, this is serious!"
Siri: "I know. And don't call me Siri."
Or when you're getting directions:
"In 100 feet, go west. Life is peaceful there."
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
I think I'd actually prefer a 1 in 10 chance that she appends "and you should probably learn an instrument" to the instructions for that.
Throw in little jokes like that every so often in addition to the proper info.
She is already a sassy bitch you don't need to encourage her.
Ahh... you need to train her...
Me: "Siri: Who am I?"
Siri: "You're Dick, But since we're friends, I get to call you 'Oh Omnipotent one'."
But do you really think parsing the explicit meaning of Tom Cook's lame apology is going to make a hill-of-beans difference to all the iPhone users who buy their phones at Walmart?
No matter what you infer from Tim Cook's apology letter, and it is far from definitive, the media, and Apple's competitors and detractors, have all spun it the worst possible way.
While I appreciate your position, and would love to believe there is no other way to interpret his words, it is simply not the case. You would therefore be doing all of us who support Apple a great service by illustrating exactly how you have parsed the letter line-by-line, so that we may all benifit by your insight in our efforts to make our collective case.
Otherwise, I see the Maps arguments as finished, point Google, until Google or Apple introduce some new aspect to the discussion in a month or two for further consideration.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
Without the software, it wouldn't work at all! Get real -- Apple has never been a "Hardware only" company -- I have 34 years experience using, buying, reselling, co-developing and programming their products. The Apple ][ had a built-in (ROM) Assembler/Debugger, Integer BASIC, Hi and Lo-res graphics, TV Typewriter... All "software" that enabled the "hardware" to do something. Even the maimframe and mini computers of that day could not match the Apple ][ built-in software.
I never suggested they were ONLY a hardware company. I just believe if you had to weight the two I'd weight it more towards hardware right now. For me the biggest improvements with the new iPad and iPhone 5 are on the hardware side, not iOS. And same thing with the new Macabook Pro. These are amazing hardware engineering feats.
Now, you are just being stubborn. How do you know what changes were made to iOS... say to support the 3 new, more-powerful CPU cores, a larger screen, and more RAM increased performance -- all without reducing battery life. There are things in iOS 6 that we have yet to see. There are people playing 2K and 4K videos on an iPad -- that requires very powerful hardware and software support.
Before you downgrade the iOS changes, I suggest you become an iOS developer and see just what is contained, and what has changed in iOS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by matrix07
How about Apple buying Nokia? Problem solved.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman
If Apple decides it really has mapping problems, they should just BUY Nokia which also owns Navtaq. Nokia's total net-worth is only $10 billion and the Navteq portion of that is estimated to be $1 billion.
I'm sure Apple wants to run the failing phone maker (good tech chops/formerly good company/missed the smart phone wave) most committed to Win 8 Phones... ...and meanwhile, Finland would declare war on California if AAPL tried to dismantle the company for its IP.......
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse
You might as well be asking, why does Google try to destroy the competition in every market they enter?
Because, for Google to be successful, they have to eliminate alternatives to add based content and services, or such is their belief and overall business strategy for years now.
Because Google wants to control access to all information, so everyone has to go through them, so they know everything about everyone.
Because Page is a psychopathic megalomaniac mentored by the utterly devoid of all morals Schmidt.
It doesn't even have to be rational when the people running the company have a Pinky and the Brain mentality.
You realize many have made most of these same (and analogous) charges about many companies, most notably (in chronological order), Microsoft and Apple. Well, actually since you're a rabies victim (foaming at the mouth), you may well not, and the chronology would just be too tedious, and for the reasonable and well-versed, superfluous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chadmatic
The New York Times?! Nobody reads that rag anymore.
The bad news: Unfortunately many do.
The good: Last I heard they were still bleeding money year after year....
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
Exactly how far behind is Windows behind Mac OS X?
Well, we're about to find out.....