Now that we know pricing I can safely say this device is doomed. There is no way the consumer market is going to pay the same or more for a device whose best features are a keyboard that will go unused and business software that most don't need or want.
Hello MS...the tablet market is for consumer electronics. The vast majority want the device to consume content. The business people using iPads use them mostly for personal stuff and when we do use them for business it is to access email and the internet. The market for using a tablet to create word documents is almost nothing. Did you learn nothing in the last 10 years trying to sell tablets to the business market? Business people that want portability, power, and a keyboard are buying ultrabooks (mostly Macbook Airs). And, if you bothered asking corporate customers, we would tell you that we don't care about carrying a second device. Everyone I know has a laptop, an iPad, and a smartphone and we want all three devices and we like them just how they are.
I only know one person that has expressed interest in a Surface tablet. He is an electrical engineer with a law degree. He makes several hundred thousand dollars a year and buys a new android or netbook every six months. Those are the kind of people that are going to buy the Surface. MS should plan on selling about 100,000 units at full price and 4,900,000 units at the fire sale price of $200.
The Real issue with the keyboard is at what point do people hate it once they realize their finger tips get snore from banging into the hard surface. Besides the tactile feedback the regular keyboard provided the keys allow your fingers to de-accelerate so you do not bottom out and hit hard. This had been the trade off for years on how small of a keystrock you can make and still make it usable.
This thin keyboard is not new, there have been membrane keyboards for a long time and they have not been successful, why because you can not type on them long. They are okay for short durations but if you type on these thin keyboard for a long time your finger hurt and your hand gets fatigue. Look at this way, if this was the way to go, Laptop would have done it a long time ago to make the thinner, bit they too still use a traditional keyboard, because it works well.
If people are cross-shopping this with the iPad, then you're comparing it to typing on the screen or buying a BT keyboard to carry along separately. Both you can (likely?) do with the Surface as well. This cover does add a new possibility that's not available from Apple. Haven't seen one from a 3rd party cover maker either
You might ultimately be correct, but you and none of us have any idea about it's software or hardware or its quality because, as you said, "no hands on demos to date". After that, nothing you say has any evidence backing it up. ...
That's all the evidence we need to know it's not nearly ready for release.
OK so on Microsoft's surface site they offer the 32 and 64 GB models with black touch cover. Then they also offer the touch cover as a stand alone purchase in different colors at $120 and the type cover at $130. So does that mean if you want a touch cover in a color other than black it will cost you $20 more for the 32GB model and $120 more for the 64GB model (since they don't offer a 64GB model without the touch cover). That sucks.
The basic philosophy of the post-PC revolution is to get the "PC" and all that technology out of the way, so there's little as possible between the user and the content, or between the user and the user experience.
I used to remember in the early 90s trying to map ports on a firewall so I could get webcam sessions to work between PCs running Microsoft NetMeeting, and I could never call my dad, but he could call me, so we'd get on the phone first to arrange a video chat session. And now there's FaceTime and it just works.
Microsoft doesn't get it. They think it's all about appearances. About marketing. Surface is aptly named, because that's how Microsoft sees all this iPad-driven tablet frenzy. They see the tablet as a PC (Ballmer said this in public), so the Surface tablet is nothing but a PC laptop reskinned to look like a tablet. And it's only skin deep. Windows 8 is a reskinned desktop OS: you'll spend most of your time on the desktop using Office or Visual Studio, but they never show the desktop UI in their advertising, just the Metro-y Start page. A PC wearing post-PC clothing.
Which is fine for the niche of "gadget geeks" who can tell the difference between eSata and HDMI on visual inspection alone, but Microsoft desperately wants Surface to win over the iPad loving masses, and that won't happen. Not with Surface, not with Windows 8/RT. Microsoft has to be willing to throw out the PC. And they can't do it.
Of course it won't undercut the iPad price, because nobody can build one for less unless they want to lose money on every device sold... And M$ may still lose money on every one of these they sell - we don't yet know the full cost (not just materials) of these tablets.
It will be interesting to watch what happens though. I don't begrudge M$ any success they have with it - because they at least designed a product that is not a blatant rip-off of the iPad, which is more than I can say for some other companies.
I predict that the real Surface killer is going to be when Apple updates the iPad next week to have an A6 processor, which will give it lower heat and huge battery life. If the iPad is a new product, it will sell like crazy this holiday season. Does anyone else think this is the obvious (but not so obvious) move for Apple to make? And they will be doing it at the end of October, which means no competitors will have time to respond before the holiday shopping season. MS Surface is going to be road kill.
Here's how I see the mobile wars: The tablet war is between Amazon and Apple (somewhat Android) and the phone war is between Android and Apple. The ultrabook war is between Apple and HP.
I don't know how the phone war comes out, but the outcome of the tablet war is obvious. It is going to play out just like the board game "Risk." The person that wins Risk is the one that gets a good position early on and then avoids the initial major battles. If your competitors engage early on, their weakness will be exposed in second or third round of reinforcements. Android, MS, and Amazon are all engaging in squabbles and price wars at the bottom end of the market while Apple is building a technology platform, a huge customer base, distribution channels, brand recognition, etc. Keeping with the "Risk" analogy, Amazon, Google, and MS are fighting over Europe and Asia and Apple just locked up North America, South America, and Australia with very few casualties. Just watch as those efforts give a huge return on investment this holiday season. This will be the round of fighting where everyone realizes that Apple has built a fortress of sales and nobody has the fire power to stop them.
If Apple doesn't update the iPad with a new processor, they're fools. A new iPad and a new iPad could be a decisive blow in this war.
Full? really - they pulled that old trick when they went head to head against palm devices back in the day. People jumped from the (at the time) very capable Treo to some windows pocket OC because it offered MS Office. Now the palm office products (from various suppliers) were in fact more capable, and more compatible with the 'pocket' version of word, excel etc.. but slick marketing made it seem like you got FULL office features and compatibility.
Now another thing you get with Apple, are that you buy apps for you phone - and they are available across all devices.(I know you can get enhanced versions for iPad - but even the iPhone versions will work) How will this work with the RT versions of surface, v the windows 8 versions. You gotta buy mutliple copies?
So I buy an expensive package on my Windows 8 surface, but at work I would like to use same software on more powerful desktop - do I have yo buy it twice?
To answer your question, when you buy a Metro app on one Windows 8 / RT device it will work across all Win8 / RT devices. The only exception being Windows Phone 8. With Apple it's different. They have universal apps for iPhone / iPad but you pay again for the Mac version.
Full Microsoft Office, USB ports, microsd card support, uHDMI for video out, file browser, flash support, mouse support, double the capacity of the same price iPad. Heck adding a 32GB microsd card for less than 30 USD and you get a 64GB device for less than 600 USD.
oh..and there are way cheaper Windows 8 options than Surface. The Iconia W510 with ATOM is the same price as the 32GB Surface with all the feature set and the 16GB iPad .
Windows RT does NOT support Flash. Who really cares about Office apps on a ARM based tablet....2% of the tablet buying market? File browser...really? Best of luck with your Cyan Blue tablet Ricky!
Who cares about the price or if the keyboard is included?
The fact the RT tablets don't run x85 code is the biggest problem. Just wait until people buy a tablet that has "Windows" in the name and realize their existing Windows software WILL NOT RUN. Or that Office isn't quite the same as the full version on your PC. Or that there are hardly any programs available because of the major amount of work involved to re-write an existing x86 program to work on ARM.
That is the biggest reason these tablets are going to be a flop (or a very slow starter). No software.
To answer your question, when you buy a Metro app on one Windows 8 / RT device it will work across all Win8 / RT devices. The only exception being Windows Phone 8. With Apple it's different. They have universal apps for iPhone / iPad but you pay again for the Mac version.
That's not completely true. MS has it set up so if you write a program it's easy to target both PC and ARM versions. However, you can't easily take an EXISTING x86 program and move it over to Windows on ARM (RT). New Apps will be available on both, but don't expect developers of existing Apps to hand you a free version of an RT version just because you happen to own a PC version right now. More than likely they'll charge to to upgrade from the PC only version to the new "universal" version.
Full Microsoft Office, USB ports, microsd card support, uHDMI for video out, file browser, flash support, mouse support, double the capacity of the same price iPad. Heck adding a 32GB microsd card for less than 30 USD and you get a 64GB device for less than 600 USD.
oh..and there are way cheaper Windows 8 options than Surface. The Iconia W510 with ATOM is the same price as the 32GB Surface with all the feature set and the 16GB iPad .
So you WANT to use a cable to get video out???
Sounds more like you want a laptop.. It comes with all those useless ports, and has a keyboard permanently attached..
Microsoft is probably one of the last companies that has not put up a serious challenge to the since the iPad came to the market, even thought they were in the Tablet software business with their partners making the hardware. Probably the best suited to put up a fight against Apple, will be interesting to see especially after the Apple announcement of the Oct 23 event.
"The keyboard cover accessory will be available with the Surface tablet for $599, while a top-of-the-line 64-gigabyte model with touch cover will run $699.
So to reproduce these cool clicking noises seen in the M$ ad, people have to spent at least 699$.
Well done M$!"
You've contradicted yourself in a 3-sentence comment.
Will that mean that any non-MS tablet running WRT will start at around $ 599 since they'll have to pay for a licence? Of course, it's just a 'design-release' and manufacturers can do whatever they like...
I think MS was very smart on pricing. $499 leaves their OEMs breathing room even after paying for the OS...at least enough to make the usual meager profits that PC OEMs are used to.
WTF any OEM can do in the 7" Android Tablet market is beyond me with both Amazon and Google selling at cost.
Comments
Now that we know pricing I can safely say this device is doomed. There is no way the consumer market is going to pay the same or more for a device whose best features are a keyboard that will go unused and business software that most don't need or want.
Hello MS...the tablet market is for consumer electronics. The vast majority want the device to consume content. The business people using iPads use them mostly for personal stuff and when we do use them for business it is to access email and the internet. The market for using a tablet to create word documents is almost nothing. Did you learn nothing in the last 10 years trying to sell tablets to the business market? Business people that want portability, power, and a keyboard are buying ultrabooks (mostly Macbook Airs). And, if you bothered asking corporate customers, we would tell you that we don't care about carrying a second device. Everyone I know has a laptop, an iPad, and a smartphone and we want all three devices and we like them just how they are.
I only know one person that has expressed interest in a Surface tablet. He is an electrical engineer with a law degree. He makes several hundred thousand dollars a year and buys a new android or netbook every six months. Those are the kind of people that are going to buy the Surface. MS should plan on selling about 100,000 units at full price and 4,900,000 units at the fire sale price of $200.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestro64
The Real issue with the keyboard is at what point do people hate it once they realize their finger tips get snore from banging into the hard surface. Besides the tactile feedback the regular keyboard provided the keys allow your fingers to de-accelerate so you do not bottom out and hit hard. This had been the trade off for years on how small of a keystrock you can make and still make it usable.
This thin keyboard is not new, there have been membrane keyboards for a long time and they have not been successful, why because you can not type on them long. They are okay for short durations but if you type on these thin keyboard for a long time your finger hurt and your hand gets fatigue. Look at this way, if this was the way to go, Laptop would have done it a long time ago to make the thinner, bit they too still use a traditional keyboard, because it works well.
If people are cross-shopping this with the iPad, then you're comparing it to typing on the screen or buying a BT keyboard to carry along separately. Both you can (likely?) do with the Surface as well. This cover does add a new possibility that's not available from Apple. Haven't seen one from a 3rd party cover maker either
Quote:
Originally Posted by waldobushman
You might ultimately be correct, but you and none of us have any idea about it's software or hardware or its quality because, as you said, "no hands on demos to date". After that, nothing you say has any evidence backing it up. ...
That's all the evidence we need to know it's not nearly ready for release.
Now you see it...
The making of Microsoft Surface
The basic philosophy of the post-PC revolution is to get the "PC" and all that technology out of the way, so there's little as possible between the user and the content, or between the user and the user experience.
I used to remember in the early 90s trying to map ports on a firewall so I could get webcam sessions to work between PCs running Microsoft NetMeeting, and I could never call my dad, but he could call me, so we'd get on the phone first to arrange a video chat session. And now there's FaceTime and it just works.
Microsoft doesn't get it. They think it's all about appearances. About marketing. Surface is aptly named, because that's how Microsoft sees all this iPad-driven tablet frenzy. They see the tablet as a PC (Ballmer said this in public), so the Surface tablet is nothing but a PC laptop reskinned to look like a tablet. And it's only skin deep. Windows 8 is a reskinned desktop OS: you'll spend most of your time on the desktop using Office or Visual Studio, but they never show the desktop UI in their advertising, just the Metro-y Start page. A PC wearing post-PC clothing.
Which is fine for the niche of "gadget geeks" who can tell the difference between eSata and HDMI on visual inspection alone, but Microsoft desperately wants Surface to win over the iPad loving masses, and that won't happen. Not with Surface, not with Windows 8/RT. Microsoft has to be willing to throw out the PC. And they can't do it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoadm
The bollywood style ad is pathetic too
Even bollywood style is better. This is worse than gangnam style.
Of course it won't undercut the iPad price, because nobody can build one for less unless they want to lose money on every device sold... And M$ may still lose money on every one of these they sell - we don't yet know the full cost (not just materials) of these tablets.
It will be interesting to watch what happens though. I don't begrudge M$ any success they have with it - because they at least designed a product that is not a blatant rip-off of the iPad, which is more than I can say for some other companies.
I predict that the real Surface killer is going to be when Apple updates the iPad next week to have an A6 processor, which will give it lower heat and huge battery life. If the iPad is a new product, it will sell like crazy this holiday season. Does anyone else think this is the obvious (but not so obvious) move for Apple to make? And they will be doing it at the end of October, which means no competitors will have time to respond before the holiday shopping season. MS Surface is going to be road kill.
Here's how I see the mobile wars: The tablet war is between Amazon and Apple (somewhat Android) and the phone war is between Android and Apple. The ultrabook war is between Apple and HP.
I don't know how the phone war comes out, but the outcome of the tablet war is obvious. It is going to play out just like the board game "Risk." The person that wins Risk is the one that gets a good position early on and then avoids the initial major battles. If your competitors engage early on, their weakness will be exposed in second or third round of reinforcements. Android, MS, and Amazon are all engaging in squabbles and price wars at the bottom end of the market while Apple is building a technology platform, a huge customer base, distribution channels, brand recognition, etc. Keeping with the "Risk" analogy, Amazon, Google, and MS are fighting over Europe and Asia and Apple just locked up North America, South America, and Australia with very few casualties. Just watch as those efforts give a huge return on investment this holiday season. This will be the round of fighting where everyone realizes that Apple has built a fortress of sales and nobody has the fire power to stop them.
If Apple doesn't update the iPad with a new processor, they're fools. A new iPad and a new iPad could be a decisive blow in this war.
“Surface is not a tablet, but it’s the best tablet I’ve ever used. It’s not a laptop, but it’s the best laptop I’ve ever used,” said Sinofsky
Quote:
Originally Posted by Right_said_fred
Full? really - they pulled that old trick when they went head to head against palm devices back in the day. People jumped from the (at the time) very capable Treo to some windows pocket OC because it offered MS Office. Now the palm office products (from various suppliers) were in fact more capable, and more compatible with the 'pocket' version of word, excel etc.. but slick marketing made it seem like you got FULL office features and compatibility.
Now another thing you get with Apple, are that you buy apps for you phone - and they are available across all devices.(I know you can get enhanced versions for iPad - but even the iPhone versions will work) How will this work with the RT versions of surface, v the windows 8 versions. You gotta buy mutliple copies?
So I buy an expensive package on my Windows 8 surface, but at work I would like to use same software on more powerful desktop - do I have yo buy it twice?
To answer your question, when you buy a Metro app on one Windows 8 / RT device it will work across all Win8 / RT devices. The only exception being Windows Phone 8. With Apple it's different. They have universal apps for iPhone / iPad but you pay again for the Mac version.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardo Dawkins
Surface 32GB - 499 USD
Full Microsoft Office, USB ports, microsd card support, uHDMI for video out, file browser, flash support, mouse support, double the capacity of the same price iPad. Heck adding a 32GB microsd card for less than 30 USD and you get a 64GB device for less than 600 USD.
oh..and there are way cheaper Windows 8 options than Surface. The Iconia W510 with ATOM is the same price as the 32GB Surface with all the feature set and the 16GB iPad .
Windows RT does NOT support Flash. Who really cares about Office apps on a ARM based tablet....2% of the tablet buying market? File browser...really? Best of luck with your Cyan Blue tablet Ricky!
Yes you do.
Who cares about the price or if the keyboard is included?
The fact the RT tablets don't run x85 code is the biggest problem. Just wait until people buy a tablet that has "Windows" in the name and realize their existing Windows software WILL NOT RUN. Or that Office isn't quite the same as the full version on your PC. Or that there are hardly any programs available because of the major amount of work involved to re-write an existing x86 program to work on ARM.
That is the biggest reason these tablets are going to be a flop (or a very slow starter). No software.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shameer Mulji
To answer your question, when you buy a Metro app on one Windows 8 / RT device it will work across all Win8 / RT devices. The only exception being Windows Phone 8. With Apple it's different. They have universal apps for iPhone / iPad but you pay again for the Mac version.
That's not completely true. MS has it set up so if you write a program it's easy to target both PC and ARM versions. However, you can't easily take an EXISTING x86 program and move it over to Windows on ARM (RT). New Apps will be available on both, but don't expect developers of existing Apps to hand you a free version of an RT version just because you happen to own a PC version right now. More than likely they'll charge to to upgrade from the PC only version to the new "universal" version.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardo Dawkins
Surface 32GB - 499 USD
Full Microsoft Office, USB ports, microsd card support, uHDMI for video out, file browser, flash support, mouse support, double the capacity of the same price iPad. Heck adding a 32GB microsd card for less than 30 USD and you get a 64GB device for less than 600 USD.
oh..and there are way cheaper Windows 8 options than Surface. The Iconia W510 with ATOM is the same price as the 32GB Surface with all the feature set and the 16GB iPad .
So you WANT to use a cable to get video out???
Sounds more like you want a laptop.. It comes with all those useless ports, and has a keyboard permanently attached..
Microsoft is probably one of the last companies that has not put up a serious challenge to the since the iPad came to the market, even thought they were in the Tablet software business with their partners making the hardware. Probably the best suited to put up a fight against Apple, will be interesting to see especially after the Apple announcement of the Oct 23 event.
So to reproduce these cool clicking noises seen in the M$ ad, people have to spent at least 699$.
Well done M$!"
You've contradicted yourself in a 3-sentence comment.
Well done, moron!
Two inaccuracies in one sentence. Well done AI!
1)MATH FTW! $499 for 32GB model < $599 for 32GB iPad
2)It wasn't "leaked", it was officially disclosed and put on pre-order.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie
Will that mean that any non-MS tablet running WRT will start at around $ 599 since they'll have to pay for a licence? Of course, it's just a 'design-release' and manufacturers can do whatever they like...
I think MS was very smart on pricing. $499 leaves their OEMs breathing room even after paying for the OS...at least enough to make the usual meager profits that PC OEMs are used to.
WTF any OEM can do in the 7" Android Tablet market is beyond me with both Amazon and Google selling at cost.