Sorry, I have to disagree with this statement. In any industry that is as fast changing as the computer/tech industry .... you absolutely have to cannibalize just to stay at the cutting edge .... otherwise you end up like Microsoft ..... selling over bloated and second rate products. You must learn what and when to let stuff go so you can keep ahead of the competition.
You misunderstand me, it's the word 'cannibalise' that I disagree with as it implies some sort of loss, when in fact it's simply providing choice.
You can't have an opinion on something unless you've tried it? He's been working at Apple for a long time and he's clearly not an idiot so I think if he reads about a products features he come to a clear opinion as to why he thinks it's confusing and compromising, especially considering Apple going the opposite direction to make a very clear use product with the iPad and iOS.
What Apple is doing to OSX in implementing iOS features does not paint a very clear picture to me.
I also highly doubt he hasn't tried windows 8 or surface at all. If only to qualify it as a non-competitor (which is not my opinion by the way, I think MS has nailed the one-OS-fits all quite nicely, especially since you also have desktop mode)
What a misleading and innaccurate headline! Tim Cook was just quoting someone else - that isn't his opinion on the Surface since he hasn't even tried it!
You can't have an opinion on something unless you've tried it? He's been working at Apple for a long time and he's clearly not an idiot so I think if he reads about a products features he come to a clear opinion as to why he thinks it's confusing and compromising, especially considering Apple going the opposite direction to make a very clear use product with the iPad and iOS.
In his defense, I think Mobius meant that the headline reads that Tim Cook calls it C&C, while the article's first sentence reads that the reviewers called it C&C. Nonetheless, agree with your view. Also the next one down this thread.
You can't have an opinion on something unless you've tried it? He's been working at Apple for a long time and he's clearly not an idiot so I think if he reads about a products features he come to a clear opinion as to why he thinks it's confusing and compromising, especially considering Apple going the opposite direction to make a very clear use product with the iPad and iOS.
Well, one can have opinion even about something one never heard about before. But having some first-hand experience with the subject definitively gives that opinion some weight.
No compromise, except of course battery life, screen resolution, weight, low-power CPU, two models to confuse customers, etc.
From Anandtech: "Overall battery life is pretty competitive with the iPad. In lighter use cases Apple pulls ahead slightly, but if you look at our updated web browsing test the heavier CPU load pushes Surface ahead of the third gen iPad. It’s not clear how the 4th gen iPad would stack up in this comparison."
9.12 hours of light browsing, compared to iPad3 9.28 hours is not bad really. And this is only MS Surface. Other vendors can push battery life further than that, if they choose to. Asus VivoTab RT comes with keyboard dock housing 2nd battery, and is only 525g without keyboard (iPad 3 is 680g for wifi version).
Yes, CPU is slower and screen is lower res... for now. That is the beauty of standard platform vs. single vendor - things are changing fast. Variations in size, weight, battery life, hardware features... will be covered.
And then, there is Office. Some people here are dismissing importance of this because they dislike it and have managed to find a niche that does not require presence of Office in everyday. But for majority, importance of Office will be higher than importance of Retina display.
And then, there is Office. Some people here are dismissing importance of this because they dislike it and have managed to find a niche that does not require presence of Office in everyday. But for majority, importance of Office will be higher than importance of Retina display.
For anyone who arg about OfficeRT being the Surface Killer should try it first. OfficeRT is a very light version of the real Office and no better of what already exist on iPad and Android.
I'll keep an eye on Surface but I think many first buyers will be deceived by what they got vs a real PC
What Apple is doing to OSX in implementing iOS features does not paint a very clear picture to me.
I also highly doubt he hasn't tried windows 8 or surface at all. If only to qualify it as a non-competitor (which is not my opinion by the way, I think MS has nailed the one-OS-fits all quite nicely, especially since you also have desktop mode)
Saw a few Windows 8 laptops this morning, the design and layout of the screen makes you want to touch them like a Windows phone, of course nothing happens you have to use the touchpad and keyboard.
This echoes my feelings about Windows 8.
Everything I needed to do on a desktop/laptop seemed to be hidden behind the tile UI. Which may make sense on a tablet, but just adds one more level of stuff to navigate through on a desktop. And trying to launch applications which don't have a tile associated with them was an absolute pain to figure out. Not to mention figuring out how to shut down the computer, quitting out of fullscreen applications, etc. Definitely a confused UI for a traditional computer.
The first thing I think of when I look at that Surface tablets is, why on earth would I want to work in an environment immersed in garish colors (magenta, turquoise, etc.). Microsoft seems to go out of their way to prove Steve Jobs' observation correct %u2013 they are sorely lacking in their sense of taste.
The first thing I think of when I look at that Surface tablets is, why on earth would I want to work in an environment immersed in garish colors (magenta, turquoise, etc.). Microsoft seems to go out of their way to prove Steve Jobs' observation correct %u2013 they are sorely lacking in their sense of taste.
The thing that boggles my mind, is MS managed to bring back the Membrane Keyboard(Timex Sinclair called from 1982, they want their keyboard back), charge $100 for it, and the tech press is lapping it up.
I've never heard people complain so much about a product they have no intention of buying. The sad truth is your heads are so far up Apples butt you wouldn't know a good product if you saw it. You wont allow yourselves to like certain products no matter how good because of your childish allegiance to Apple.
You are forgetting the obvious fact that Surface is just one of many tablet and hybrid form factors that will run Win8. Asus, Lenovo, Dell, and numerous others have already announced devices and some of those devices will bring to the market features Surface is missing. 3G, 4G, LTE and all the rest will be available in weeks time - It won't be a 'year' before we see the shortcomings you allege addressed. This same fact is why the Zune comparison is off the mark; Zune wasn't an operating system - it pitched one MS device against one Apple device. That scenario does not fit what is happening now.
I also think you underestimate the potential for the MS app store. The feature that gave the app store so much push - the depth and breadth of its offerings - has become a big liability for it. Developers who are thoughtful realize that it is now almost impossible to get noticed, and that means that developers increasingly have to budget advertising and other efforts to get sales. That makes the app store start to look more and more like any other retail endeavor and it squeezes out the smaller devs. LOTS of developers are going to see the Win8 store as a blank slate upon which they have a new chance to get noticed.
In the past many of the same arguments you make were used about Android tablets, too. Remember all the snide chuckling around here about the Android tabs, and all the mocking and silliness? Well guess what - while last year Apple enjoyed an 81% market share, this year they enjoyed only a 52% market share. Android went from 15% to 48% - in one year. Examined in that context, the increases in Apple sales do not indicate that Apple is in an insurmountable number one position, they indicate that the market size and potential for these device types is huge and Apple is riding that wave. While folks like to use the rising numbers of Apple shipments to argue that Apple is on top, the reality is that the market is growing, and it is growing faster than Apple sales in terms of total volume. That is why Android was able to eat essentially a third of Apple's market share in one year without anybody even noticing - the market is new and expanding. What I find most remarkable about this is that Android was able to accomplish it despite the fact that it (Android) is such a horrid piece of trash (and it is - both for end users and for developers).
Microsoft is positioning itself first and foremost to eat Android's lunch, and frankly, I think the Redmond crew is well positioned to do so. But don't let that fool you into complacently thinking Apple remains unassailable - it most definitely does not. Ultimately these markets - smart phones and tablets - will mature just as the PC market has. When that happens, market share will matter because market growth will not be able to compensate for declining or static market share. What is going to happen to Apple stock when they can't post amazing YOY growth? A sobering question for you to consider.
These reasons above are all why it does matter what MS is up to, and why Apple shouldn't be foolish enough to dismiss MS... as Microsoft was to dismiss Apple.
you didn't notice my comment was clearly specific to the Surface RT manufactured by MS? since that is what all the reviews are reviewing right now? if what you say is true and other OEM's offer RT tablets this year that are better, then they will kill this MS Surface dead even faster than i expected. a cool keyboard is not enough.
but even they cannot solve the missing software, can't run old Windows applications, and "you have to get used to it" problems that apply to all RT products. and of those, only the missing software could be fixed by sometime next year. RT is a one-off ARM concept from MS, an interim placeholder in the market until Intel can finally produce a decent X86 tablet chip for low power devices. MS is just trying to buy time. Remember Windows Phone 6.5? or 7.0? or 7.5? all fatally flawed/limited interim products that MS hyped at the time anyway in order to keep a foothold in the smartphone market. RT may not be dumped as fast as the Kin was, another such MS gambit, but i give it less than 2 years.
the X86 Surface Pro, that may be different. have to wait and see until one is actually put on the market, not just hyped. it has very different markets and issues.
MS likewise tried to expand the Zune from just hardware into its overall media store software for all PC's and OEM media products, the Zune Marketplace with associated services. they just recently changed the name to XBox Music, finally admitting that the Zune "brand" was dead dead dead and hoping to hitch it up to an actually popular product by re-branding. so yes, the MS media store is still alive, but a distant also ran behind several others.
in this case we have the RT - which will use XBox Music for media - as the launchpad for the new MS App store too. so yes, maybe the MS App store will do a lot more, including smartphone apps (the Windows 8 phone is a whole other topic!), and live beyond the RT Surface. at least this time MS didn't saddle it with the name of a dead-end product.
but i can't find any "juggernaut" in any of the above. your post is long on rhetoric but very very short on any specific reasoning.
Giant banners of products on white backgrounds… glass product nameplates on the tables…
Get bent, Microsoft. Yeah, I appreciate you doing your own thing with your mobile software, but frigging commit to being different, you idiots. This is purposeful obfuscation.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by newbee
Sorry, I have to disagree with this statement. In any industry that is as fast changing as the computer/tech industry .... you absolutely have to cannibalize just to stay at the cutting edge .... otherwise you end up like Microsoft ..... selling over bloated and second rate products. You must learn what and when to let stuff go so you can keep ahead of the competition.
You misunderstand me, it's the word 'cannibalise' that I disagree with as it implies some sort of loss, when in fact it's simply providing choice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
You can't have an opinion on something unless you've tried it? He's been working at Apple for a long time and he's clearly not an idiot so I think if he reads about a products features he come to a clear opinion as to why he thinks it's confusing and compromising, especially considering Apple going the opposite direction to make a very clear use product with the iPad and iOS.
What Apple is doing to OSX in implementing iOS features does not paint a very clear picture to me.
I also highly doubt he hasn't tried windows 8 or surface at all. If only to qualify it as a non-competitor (which is not my opinion by the way, I think MS has nailed the one-OS-fits all quite nicely, especially since you also have desktop mode)
Only time will tell...
In his defense, I think Mobius meant that the headline reads that Tim Cook calls it C&C, while the article's first sentence reads that the reviewers called it C&C. Nonetheless, agree with your view. Also the next one down this thread.
Well, one can have opinion even about something one never heard about before. But having some first-hand experience with the subject definitively gives that opinion some weight.
Did you ever desire to use laptop in portrait mode..?
From Anandtech: "Overall battery life is pretty competitive with the iPad. In lighter use cases Apple pulls ahead slightly, but if you look at our updated web browsing test the heavier CPU load pushes Surface ahead of the third gen iPad. It’s not clear how the 4th gen iPad would stack up in this comparison."
9.12 hours of light browsing, compared to iPad3 9.28 hours is not bad really. And this is only MS Surface. Other vendors can push battery life further than that, if they choose to. Asus VivoTab RT comes with keyboard dock housing 2nd battery, and is only 525g without keyboard (iPad 3 is 680g for wifi version).
Yes, CPU is slower and screen is lower res... for now. That is the beauty of standard platform vs. single vendor - things are changing fast. Variations in size, weight, battery life, hardware features... will be covered.
And then, there is Office. Some people here are dismissing importance of this because they dislike it and have managed to find a niche that does not require presence of Office in everyday. But for majority, importance of Office will be higher than importance of Retina display.
Well this is my opinion. Time will tell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133
And then, there is Office. Some people here are dismissing importance of this because they dislike it and have managed to find a niche that does not require presence of Office in everyday. But for majority, importance of Office will be higher than importance of Retina display.
For anyone who arg about OfficeRT being the Surface Killer should try it first. OfficeRT is a very light version of the real Office and no better of what already exist on iPad and Android.
I'll keep an eye on Surface but I think many first buyers will be deceived by what they got vs a real PC
Originally Posted by Blitz1
I'm surprised TC commented on the Surface.
Must be that he thinks it will be a formidable competitor
Looks like we might need a new Rule on the list.
"Apple never talks about their competitors. Ever. For any reason. Unless they feel threatened by them."
Well, he could have that he didn't have any useful to say
What can you do in Desktop Mode on the Surface?
Originally Posted by Blitz1
Well, he could have that he didn't have any useful to say
Yeah, THAT sure projects a better image. ????
Come on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60
Saw a few Windows 8 laptops this morning, the design and layout of the screen makes you want to touch them like a Windows phone, of course nothing happens you have to use the touchpad and keyboard.
This echoes my feelings about Windows 8.
Everything I needed to do on a desktop/laptop seemed to be hidden behind the tile UI. Which may make sense on a tablet, but just adds one more level of stuff to navigate through on a desktop. And trying to launch applications which don't have a tile associated with them was an absolute pain to figure out. Not to mention figuring out how to shut down the computer, quitting out of fullscreen applications, etc. Definitely a confused UI for a traditional computer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by c4rlob
The first thing I think of when I look at that Surface tablets is, why on earth would I want to work in an environment immersed in garish colors (magenta, turquoise, etc.). Microsoft seems to go out of their way to prove Steve Jobs' observation correct %u2013 they are sorely lacking in their sense of taste.
The thing that boggles my mind, is MS managed to bring back the Membrane Keyboard(Timex Sinclair called from 1982, they want their keyboard back), charge $100 for it, and the tech press is lapping it up.
They complain about Apple RDF?
I've never heard people complain so much about a product they have no intention of buying. The sad truth is your heads are so far up Apples butt you wouldn't know a good product if you saw it. You wont allow yourselves to like certain products no matter how good because of your childish allegiance to Apple.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tt92618
You are forgetting the obvious fact that Surface is just one of many tablet and hybrid form factors that will run Win8. Asus, Lenovo, Dell, and numerous others have already announced devices and some of those devices will bring to the market features Surface is missing. 3G, 4G, LTE and all the rest will be available in weeks time - It won't be a 'year' before we see the shortcomings you allege addressed. This same fact is why the Zune comparison is off the mark; Zune wasn't an operating system - it pitched one MS device against one Apple device. That scenario does not fit what is happening now.
I also think you underestimate the potential for the MS app store. The feature that gave the app store so much push - the depth and breadth of its offerings - has become a big liability for it. Developers who are thoughtful realize that it is now almost impossible to get noticed, and that means that developers increasingly have to budget advertising and other efforts to get sales. That makes the app store start to look more and more like any other retail endeavor and it squeezes out the smaller devs. LOTS of developers are going to see the Win8 store as a blank slate upon which they have a new chance to get noticed.
In the past many of the same arguments you make were used about Android tablets, too. Remember all the snide chuckling around here about the Android tabs, and all the mocking and silliness? Well guess what - while last year Apple enjoyed an 81% market share, this year they enjoyed only a 52% market share. Android went from 15% to 48% - in one year. Examined in that context, the increases in Apple sales do not indicate that Apple is in an insurmountable number one position, they indicate that the market size and potential for these device types is huge and Apple is riding that wave. While folks like to use the rising numbers of Apple shipments to argue that Apple is on top, the reality is that the market is growing, and it is growing faster than Apple sales in terms of total volume. That is why Android was able to eat essentially a third of Apple's market share in one year without anybody even noticing - the market is new and expanding. What I find most remarkable about this is that Android was able to accomplish it despite the fact that it (Android) is such a horrid piece of trash (and it is - both for end users and for developers).
Microsoft is positioning itself first and foremost to eat Android's lunch, and frankly, I think the Redmond crew is well positioned to do so. But don't let that fool you into complacently thinking Apple remains unassailable - it most definitely does not. Ultimately these markets - smart phones and tablets - will mature just as the PC market has. When that happens, market share will matter because market growth will not be able to compensate for declining or static market share. What is going to happen to Apple stock when they can't post amazing YOY growth? A sobering question for you to consider.
These reasons above are all why it does matter what MS is up to, and why Apple shouldn't be foolish enough to dismiss MS... as Microsoft was to dismiss Apple.
you didn't notice my comment was clearly specific to the Surface RT manufactured by MS? since that is what all the reviews are reviewing right now? if what you say is true and other OEM's offer RT tablets this year that are better, then they will kill this MS Surface dead even faster than i expected. a cool keyboard is not enough.
but even they cannot solve the missing software, can't run old Windows applications, and "you have to get used to it" problems that apply to all RT products. and of those, only the missing software could be fixed by sometime next year. RT is a one-off ARM concept from MS, an interim placeholder in the market until Intel can finally produce a decent X86 tablet chip for low power devices. MS is just trying to buy time. Remember Windows Phone 6.5? or 7.0? or 7.5? all fatally flawed/limited interim products that MS hyped at the time anyway in order to keep a foothold in the smartphone market. RT may not be dumped as fast as the Kin was, another such MS gambit, but i give it less than 2 years.
the X86 Surface Pro, that may be different. have to wait and see until one is actually put on the market, not just hyped. it has very different markets and issues.
MS likewise tried to expand the Zune from just hardware into its overall media store software for all PC's and OEM media products, the Zune Marketplace with associated services. they just recently changed the name to XBox Music, finally admitting that the Zune "brand" was dead dead dead and hoping to hitch it up to an actually popular product by re-branding. so yes, the MS media store is still alive, but a distant also ran behind several others.
in this case we have the RT - which will use XBox Music for media - as the launchpad for the new MS App store too. so yes, maybe the MS App store will do a lot more, including smartphone apps (the Windows 8 phone is a whole other topic!), and live beyond the RT Surface. at least this time MS didn't saddle it with the name of a dead-end product.
but i can't find any "juggernaut" in any of the above. your post is long on rhetoric but very very short on any specific reasoning.
Prediction: A total flop just like the Windows phone.
I mostly agree but my question is, Who's hitting Who's forehead over their Touch/Type Covers?
http://blogs.wsj.com/corporate-intelligence/2012/10/26/a-visit-to-the-microsoft-store-on-surface-day-raises-tough-questions/
Originally Posted by Rogifan
Good call Tim.
http://blogs.wsj.com/corporate-intelligence/2012/10/26/a-visit-to-the-microsoft-store-on-surface-day-raises-tough-questions/
Giant banners of products on white backgrounds… glass product nameplates on the tables…
Get bent, Microsoft. Yeah, I appreciate you doing your own thing with your mobile software, but frigging commit to being different, you idiots. This is purposeful obfuscation.