The software and the data are inextricably linked - you don't push an app out the door that relies on faulty data.
Correct—to a point: the way map data improves IS by software. By pushing it out the door for people to use. That’s how Google does it, and that’s how Apple will do it too. Nobody in Apple’s labs is going to know that Susan’s Diner moved a block over. User reports—and to some extent automated GPS processing (which we hope is anonymized properly)—provide the necessary info to improve and update mapping systems.
Now—where does the best user-sourced data come from?
It comes from the devices people actually have WITH them, awake and in use, when they’re out and about and noticing problems. Not their desktop or even their laptop, but their smartphone.
Which smartphones generate the most user-source data?
The ones that are actually in active use. Look at actual usage data and you’ll see that iPhone dominates. Yes, handset makers throw Android for free onto every random handset these days, and carrier stores (where Americans at least buy most of their phones) push Android over Apple. But you can’t make people USE it. Most of the mobile computing is done on iPhone, and iPhone users are the best possible source of mapping improvements. And most of them are simply going to use the pre-installed Maps app. It’s good enough--and the alternatives aren’t perfect enough to be worth the trouble for average people (as opposed to we tech-heads).
So—who has access to that data? It used to be Google receiving map improvements from iPhone users. Now they’ve lost the single best resource for keeping Google Maps current on ALL platforms, desktop included. Google’s loss is Apple’s gain: Apple now has exclusive access to user problem reports from the Maps app.
So yes, Apple SHOULD have pushed it out the door with faulty data (after all, Google is packed with faulty data too). And now they’re compiling better data while Google is left out.
Look at what Nokia just did with the Here app: by their own admission, they NEED iPhone users to improve their map data—without it, Nokia’s own phones suffer! For the same reason, expect Google to have their own app—but they weren’t smart. They’re too late, and now people are used to the fact that Apple’s Maps is actually OK. Google should have played up the media hype and “saved the day” before people ever gave Maps a chance. Too late now.
That's because all roads in North Korea are six lane freeways, all personally paved by Kim Jong Il one sunday to celebrate his 50 under par golf round.
I love how Apple is doing its damndest to keep the negative maps PR going by firing someone new each month. You know, just when its out of the headlines each time, they go ahead and make sure to drag it back to the spotlight. How does it make sense to fire someone who's had a hand in development of maps since the beginning- wouldnt this person be in the best position to have insight into what improvements to make, etc, instead of going out and looking for something new? It's not rocket science, it just needs time and a shitload of work, not some radical new ideas. It's mapping. The fundamentals are there. Apple is just making itself look utterly incompetent and clueless by continuing to fire people and actively publicizing that they're looking for someone 'outside the company for help' making it seem as if they don't have the people or the skills to get the job done, and lowering trust in the product even more. Maps has already improved greatly since it launched, yet Apple is seemingly doing everything in its power to continue to give the perception that the product is shit. Stock has already taken a significant hit, after finally being on an upwards roll. I don't see why the people who built maps (which has great fundamentals) wouldn't be able to continue improving a task, which should be a much simpler task now.
That's because all roads in North Korea are six lane freeways, all personally paved by Kim Jong Il one sunday to celebrate his 50 under par golf round.
Why, you'd need an interocitor to be able to lay a highway that quickly…
*gasp* The North Koreans are getting help from the aliens!
It is not at all nonsensical to prefer using the same maps solution on desktop and on mobile devices.
Show me a proper, exhaustive comparison that reports "few" significant differences between Apple Maps and Google Maps. I don't even know how one would define the comparison to begin with, and I am way smarter (and better looker) than you.
I did not say iOS maps were significantly flawed. I merely wrote that I didn't know how we could arrive at the conclusion at it was not significantly worse than Google. I could have written that I don't know how we can arrive at the conclusion that it is significantly worse. But you are so instinctively, preternaturally defensive that you resort to manipulation of emphasis, convenient/deliberate negligence of my presentation of two-sided perspective, sophomoric use of single exceptions to invalidate a general observation and hyperbolic belittlement. As usual, these low level tactics only serve to undermine you instead of me.
Take a deep breath. I am not attacking your wife's ugliness (or your husband). I am asking how we can objectively define whether he/she is significantly ugly, or pretty.
I am glad to hear you are so smart and good looking and modest. In any case, to keep with the sophomoric tone of your post: as everyone knows, beauty is skin deep, but ugliness goes straight to the bone. In other words: you can never convince anyone that something is great, but it is very easy to convince someone that the something is bad: just find an example of catastrophic failure. For me, I don't really care what the picture of the Hoover Dam looks like, but I do care that Apple Maps gives me wrong direction to my house from half a mile away (I do know how to get there without Maps, luckily, but some unfortunate guest might not).
I could be wrong but I believe you just defended Google Maps.
I'll defend it where it deserves defending and be critical of it where it deserves criticism. It's the old standard now, just as Yahoo! and MapQuest were the old standards at Google Maps' introduction. It had many errors at launch—but no more than Apple Maps did—and it has errors now. All mapping systems do, and will, and therefore the fight is in how seamlessly they do what they're designed to do.
Apple Maps is stunning. The methods of interaction it provides and the UI through which it serves its content will become the new baseline for all future softwares in this field. Google Maps was just the same at its launch. But it got things wrong. Boy, did it ever. But if I recall correctly, Google Maps still has Apple's one-upped in transit systems. It'll be interesting to see how that changes in the near future, however.
Scott Forstall had every right not to sign the letter of apology because the issues were not caused by his software but by faulty maps data and images. Steve Jobs would have done the same thing.
So I don't see why they are firing Scott. His team has done an excellent job on the application.
Even if he has issues with other managers, that is not reason to fire him.
I think Scott Forstall should be retained at Apple.
Time will tell.
You have no idea how companies work. Forstall was in charge of iOS and he screwed it up with Maps in iOS 6. He is ultimately responsible because he is in charge of iOS. Forstall was ultimately responsible to make sure the lousy map data works, and it doesn't. Apple bought outdated Map data from various companies and couldn't make it work. Steve Jobs apologized for the mess that MobileMe was. Steve Jobs always admitted when Apple made mistakes, and he did it publicly. So your opinion about Steve Jobs is wrong. Forstall's refusal to admit failure just proves what an ass he really is. Forstall's team did a shit job on the Map app because it doesn't work with outdated data. When someone has issues with other managers and they cannot work together, that IS a reason to be fired. Apple doesn't need to do turn by turn navi when there are much better third-party apps that have done it for years.
Holy s**t I just only found out through this article that Scott Forstall left. I knew something felt funny at (or it was just me) Apple this past November.
BTW Nov 28 and iMac production is still jacked up.
Street View is not relevant... It never existed on the Google version of the iPhone maps app. Google would not allow it, nor would they allow turn-by-turn..... No iPhone user 'lost' street view by moving to Apple maps...
What Apple maps users gained in iOS 6 was native turn-by-turn and flyover... Definitely an upgrade...
When Google ships an iOS maps app, then the comparison will make sense... Not sure what's taking them so long...
You have no idea what you are talking about. The Google Map app in iOS always had Street View. Sounds like you had no idea how to use it. Most iOS users got a downgrade in maps when they moved to iOS 6. Just because you could not figure out how to use Street View, doesn't mean you can assume that everyone out there didn't use it. Apple didn't need turn by turn navi when there were already third party apps providing the feature, and in a much better method. Flyover is worthless eye-candy because no one travels by helicopter to see where they are going. It is worthless. Google has now implemented Street View into their mobile web version of Google Maps. But I am guessing you don't know how to use that either.
You have no idea what you are talking about. The Google Map app in iOS always had Street View. Sounds like you had no idea how to use it. Most iOS users got a downgrade in maps when they moved to iOS 6. Just because you could not figure out how to use Street View, doesn't mean you can assume that everyone out there didn't use it. Apple didn't need turn by turn navi when there were already third party apps providing the feature, and in a much better method. Flyover is worthless eye-candy because no one travels by helicopter to see where they are going. It is worthless. Google has now implemented Street View into their mobile web version of Google Maps. But I am guessing you don't know how to use that either.
Flyover is nice because you can visualise a city in 3D and it helps in turn-by-turn. That said, it is poorly implemented in a number of cities in the US (as I understand) and around the world (eg. Melbourne, Australia).
Holy s**t I just only found out through this article that Scott Forstall left. I knew something felt funny at (or it was just me) Apple this past November.
BTW Nov 28 and iMac production is still jacked up.
Hmmm, I'm not liking all of these upper management/department-head shakeups lately. Too many in too short-of time period.
Indeed. Very fishy. I just found out today about Forstall (yes, I'm slipping). Need to find out about that more. The moment Forstall goes to Android, if he can fit in, Boom! (reference intended).
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by runbuh
The software and the data are inextricably linked - you don't push an app out the door that relies on faulty data.
Correct—to a point: the way map data improves IS by software. By pushing it out the door for people to use. That’s how Google does it, and that’s how Apple will do it too. Nobody in Apple’s labs is going to know that Susan’s Diner moved a block over. User reports—and to some extent automated GPS processing (which we hope is anonymized properly)—provide the necessary info to improve and update mapping systems.
Now—where does the best user-sourced data come from?
It comes from the devices people actually have WITH them, awake and in use, when they’re out and about and noticing problems. Not their desktop or even their laptop, but their smartphone.
Which smartphones generate the most user-source data?
The ones that are actually in active use. Look at actual usage data and you’ll see that iPhone dominates. Yes, handset makers throw Android for free onto every random handset these days, and carrier stores (where Americans at least buy most of their phones) push Android over Apple. But you can’t make people USE it. Most of the mobile computing is done on iPhone, and iPhone users are the best possible source of mapping improvements. And most of them are simply going to use the pre-installed Maps app. It’s good enough--and the alternatives aren’t perfect enough to be worth the trouble for average people (as opposed to we tech-heads).
So—who has access to that data? It used to be Google receiving map improvements from iPhone users. Now they’ve lost the single best resource for keeping Google Maps current on ALL platforms, desktop included. Google’s loss is Apple’s gain: Apple now has exclusive access to user problem reports from the Maps app.
So yes, Apple SHOULD have pushed it out the door with faulty data (after all, Google is packed with faulty data too). And now they’re compiling better data while Google is left out.
Look at what Nokia just did with the Here app: by their own admission, they NEED iPhone users to improve their map data—without it, Nokia’s own phones suffer! For the same reason, expect Google to have their own app—but they weren’t smart. They’re too late, and now people are used to the fact that Apple’s Maps is actually OK. Google should have played up the media hype and “saved the day” before people ever gave Maps a chance. Too late now.
I refuse to use Google's maps until they include North Korea street view... damn pansy asses...!
Originally Posted by Macky the Macky
I refuse to use Google's maps until they include North Korea street view... damn pansy asses...!
I've always wondered about that. They've no problem showing secret US installations but don't even show the simplest dirt farm road in Best Korea.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
I've always wondered about that. They've no problem showing secret US installations but don't even show the simplest dirt farm road in Best Korea.
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That's because all roads in North Korea are six lane freeways, all personally paved by Kim Jong Il one sunday to celebrate his 50 under par golf round.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy
I love how Apple is doing its damndest to keep the negative maps PR going by firing someone new each month. You know, just when its out of the headlines each time, they go ahead and make sure to drag it back to the spotlight. How does it make sense to fire someone who's had a hand in development of maps since the beginning- wouldnt this person be in the best position to have insight into what improvements to make, etc, instead of going out and looking for something new? It's not rocket science, it just needs time and a shitload of work, not some radical new ideas. It's mapping. The fundamentals are there. Apple is just making itself look utterly incompetent and clueless by continuing to fire people and actively publicizing that they're looking for someone 'outside the company for help' making it seem as if they don't have the people or the skills to get the job done, and lowering trust in the product even more. Maps has already improved greatly since it launched, yet Apple is seemingly doing everything in its power to continue to give the perception that the product is shit. Stock has already taken a significant hit, after finally being on an upwards roll. I don't see why the people who built maps (which has great fundamentals) wouldn't be able to continue improving a task, which should be a much simpler task now.
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Month one: the miscreants have been shot.
Month two: the people who shot the miscreants have been shot.
Month three: the people who shot the people who shot the miscreants have been shot.
Etc.
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Originally Posted by igriv
That's because all roads in North Korea are six lane freeways, all personally paved by Kim Jong Il one sunday to celebrate his 50 under par golf round.
Why, you'd need an interocitor to be able to lay a highway that quickly…
*gasp* The North Koreans are getting help from the aliens!
Quote:
Originally Posted by ankleskater
It is not at all nonsensical to prefer using the same maps solution on desktop and on mobile devices.
Show me a proper, exhaustive comparison that reports "few" significant differences between Apple Maps and Google Maps. I don't even know how one would define the comparison to begin with, and I am way smarter (and better looker) than you.
I did not say iOS maps were significantly flawed. I merely wrote that I didn't know how we could arrive at the conclusion at it was not significantly worse than Google. I could have written that I don't know how we can arrive at the conclusion that it is significantly worse. But you are so instinctively, preternaturally defensive that you resort to manipulation of emphasis, convenient/deliberate negligence of my presentation of two-sided perspective, sophomoric use of single exceptions to invalidate a general observation and hyperbolic belittlement. As usual, these low level tactics only serve to undermine you instead of me.
Take a deep breath. I am not attacking your wife's ugliness (or your husband). I am asking how we can objectively define whether he/she is significantly ugly, or pretty.
Try to be better.
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I am glad to hear you are so smart and good looking and modest. In any case, to keep with the sophomoric tone of your post: as everyone knows, beauty is skin deep, but ugliness goes straight to the bone. In other words: you can never convince anyone that something is great, but it is very easy to convince someone that the something is bad: just find an example of catastrophic failure. For me, I don't really care what the picture of the Hoover Dam looks like, but I do care that Apple Maps gives me wrong direction to my house from half a mile away (I do know how to get there without Maps, luckily, but some unfortunate guest might not).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Wait, you don't know?
Trolls don't actually use Apple products. They couldn't possibly know what features they have.
I'd rather it not die. It's one of the better ways to out people that have never used Apple products at all.
I could be wrong but I believe you just defended Google Maps.
Originally Posted by extremeskater
I could be wrong but I believe you just defended Google Maps.
I'll defend it where it deserves defending and be critical of it where it deserves criticism. It's the old standard now, just as Yahoo! and MapQuest were the old standards at Google Maps' introduction. It had many errors at launch—but no more than Apple Maps did—and it has errors now. All mapping systems do, and will, and therefore the fight is in how seamlessly they do what they're designed to do.
Apple Maps is stunning. The methods of interaction it provides and the UI through which it serves its content will become the new baseline for all future softwares in this field. Google Maps was just the same at its launch. But it got things wrong. Boy, did it ever. But if I recall correctly, Google Maps still has Apple's one-upped in transit systems. It'll be interesting to see how that changes in the near future, however.
This shall all pass.............Maps will get better as they can't really get worse. Johny Cue is more than capable of bringing great talent to Apple.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Why, you'd need an interocitor to be able to lay a highway that quickly…
*gasp* The North Koreans are getting help from the aliens!
#next_pages_container { width: 5px; hight: 5px; position: absolute; top: -100px; left: -100px; z-index: 2147483647 !important; }How wrong you are! It is the ALIENS who called on Kim Jong Il to help them build communism on Alderaan -- that is why he has temporarily departed us!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleSauce007
Scott Forstall had every right not to sign the letter of apology because the issues were not caused by his software but by faulty maps data and images. Steve Jobs would have done the same thing.
So I don't see why they are firing Scott. His team has done an excellent job on the application.
Even if he has issues with other managers, that is not reason to fire him.
I think Scott Forstall should be retained at Apple.
Time will tell.
You have no idea how companies work. Forstall was in charge of iOS and he screwed it up with Maps in iOS 6. He is ultimately responsible because he is in charge of iOS. Forstall was ultimately responsible to make sure the lousy map data works, and it doesn't. Apple bought outdated Map data from various companies and couldn't make it work. Steve Jobs apologized for the mess that MobileMe was. Steve Jobs always admitted when Apple made mistakes, and he did it publicly. So your opinion about Steve Jobs is wrong. Forstall's refusal to admit failure just proves what an ass he really is. Forstall's team did a shit job on the Map app because it doesn't work with outdated data. When someone has issues with other managers and they cannot work together, that IS a reason to be fired. Apple doesn't need to do turn by turn navi when there are much better third-party apps that have done it for years.
BTW Nov 28 and iMac production is still jacked up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken_sanders_aia
Street View is not relevant... It never existed on the Google version of the iPhone maps app. Google would not allow it, nor would they allow turn-by-turn..... No iPhone user 'lost' street view by moving to Apple maps...
What Apple maps users gained in iOS 6 was native turn-by-turn and flyover... Definitely an upgrade...
When Google ships an iOS maps app, then the comparison will make sense... Not sure what's taking them so long...
You have no idea what you are talking about. The Google Map app in iOS always had Street View. Sounds like you had no idea how to use it. Most iOS users got a downgrade in maps when they moved to iOS 6. Just because you could not figure out how to use Street View, doesn't mean you can assume that everyone out there didn't use it. Apple didn't need turn by turn navi when there were already third party apps providing the feature, and in a much better method. Flyover is worthless eye-candy because no one travels by helicopter to see where they are going. It is worthless. Google has now implemented Street View into their mobile web version of Google Maps. But I am guessing you don't know how to use that either.
Indeed. The betas had quite shocking maps and nobody seemed to be too concerned?
Flyover is nice because you can visualise a city in 3D and it helps in turn-by-turn. That said, it is poorly implemented in a number of cities in the US (as I understand) and around the world (eg. Melbourne, Australia).
Originally Posted by sr2012
Holy s**t I just only found out through this article that Scott Forstall left. I knew something felt funny at (or it was just me) Apple this past November.
BTW Nov 28 and iMac production is still jacked up.
*confused face*
*looks at clock*
Oh, yeah, it's tomorrow where you are.
Indeed. Very fishy. I just found out today about Forstall (yes, I'm slipping). Need to find out about that more. The moment Forstall goes to Android, if he can fit in, Boom! (reference intended).