Having said that, I think his refusal to sign the letter (for either reason) was just the final straw. When you have people like Mansfield and Ive, who are the real lifeblood of Apple (especially since Jobs is gone) then you do what you have to do to keep them around. If Forstall couldn't work well with the other VPs, he had to go.
And maybe he didn't think to license the Swiss clock either, costing the company $26M...? THAT could have been the last straw...
Exaclty. Maps is a real complex thing and what if Eddie Cue doesn't get it right? Will they blow him away as well? As far as I can see and read in Jobs's book, Eddie was one of the key people in iTunes and iPod era... Well I wish him all the best, but I think Maps will take a lot of time to get it to the level where Google is... you can't do that overnight with 100mph speed.
Forstall's biggest mistake was the secrecy. As a result he failed to communicate the real situation and mismanaged the expectation.
For Eddy to fix Map, he will need to address the expectation and trust problem FIRST. If he can separate the accurate POIs from the unverified ones (yet) visually, it would give the users a way to mitigate their risk and expectation.
They should also impose the 24-48 hour map fix time. This would show the early users that things are getting better relatively quickly.
Small visible changes work best here. If Eddy chooses to revamp the entire thing, he will need to start a parallel effort.
Also getting outside help is a smart or rather the right move. But they should put in as much resources and $$$ as possible to automate the hourly map update.
I think iOS7 is going to make or break the iPhone for a lot of people. iOS6 to me was the least interesting, least innovative update yet, messing with and kind of clunking up things like app store, podcasts, maps, relatively useless ticket app, ugly icon tiles for facebook twitter print etc, lack of widget and lock screen customization. None of it is terrible, but none of it's A anymore. Feels like nobody is talking over there, nobody managing it all. This is all coming from a huge apple fan, who's used an iPhone since 3G. It seems like they're struggling lately, the new iTunes 11 having issues, maps of couse, whatever is going on with Ive taking over Forstall. They need to seriously come out with a massive iOS7, not just a few tiny tweeks, to convince people they're still number one. The hardware's always been great, but we've hit a point where it's all about the software. They're coasting on 3rd party apps, but they've got more power than anyone, can do whatever they want, can hire whoever they want to help, and they're playing things way too safe.
... Cue reportedly pushed out Williamson quickly after he took on an expanded role that has put him in charge of iOS Maps. ...
This, as well as the title of the previous article are kind of re-writing history IMO.
Maps wasn't an "instant disaster" and it took a reasonable amount of time for Apple to even mention the problems or do anything about them. When they announced anything at all, they said that Eddie Cue was taking over but specifically *didn't* fire the guy in charge of the situation. After Eddie took over, he initiated a review of what happened and then only after that, he made the decision to let this guy go.
Despite what Apple Insider seems to be pushing here, he was most likely not fired out of spite or as revenge, or even because he was nominally in charge. It also didn't seem to happen "fast" or "quickly" at all to me. It seems more like a reasoned decision made after much thought.
this has to be the most overblown issue I've seen in a long time. Every time I've used it, the new Maps app works great. Far better than the old Google app.
Unfortunately, I think Apple Maps will remain a patchwork of various partners' technology and data sets for some time, which, in my opinion is the fundamental issue going forward. Unlike Google who is simply extending the search data that they already own to their maps, Apple has to depend on several other third parties. In a way, Microsoft did a much better job with their back end and cloud services than Apple. Bing search and maps are reasonably good. They were smart to build it in-house. I think this is what Apple needs to do. Search and maps are services that naturally go together and if they share some of the same code base it makes them so much more efficient rather than having many disparate partners like Apple does. There is just too much unnecessary complexity in the way Apple did their mapping solution.
Without a ground up rewrite I can't really see Eddie being able to completely fix Apple Maps. Improve, sure, but really make it competitive with the other mapping solutions out there, not likely. Apple maps has one really strong feature, it is the default mapping app on iOS, but that is about it.
"Microsoft did a much better job with their back end and cloud services than Apple. Bing search and maps are reasonably good. They were smart to build it in-house."
Actually, MS did not build their own mapping solution in-house. Bing maps is powered by Navteq which is owned by Nokia. The Bing mapping team built the UI front-end. So it's really no different than what Apple has done. On a side note, Apple should license mapping data from Navteq or use their $100+ billion war chest to buy them outright
I think iOS7 is going to make or break the iPhone for a lot of people. iOS6 to me was the least interesting, least innovative update yet, messing with and kind of clunking up things like app store, podcasts, maps, relatively useless ticket app, ugly icon tiles for facebook twitter print etc, lack of widget and lock screen customization. None of it is terrible, but none of it's A anymore. Feels like nobody is talking over there, nobody managing it all. This is all coming from a huge apple fan, who's used an iPhone since 3G. It seems like they're struggling lately, the new iTunes 11 having issues, maps of couse, whatever is going on with Ive taking over Forstall. They need to seriously come out with a massive iOS7, not just a few tiny tweeks, to convince people they're still number one. The hardware's always been great, but we've hit a point where it's all about the software. They're coasting on 3rd party apps, but they've got more power than anyone, can do whatever they want, can hire whoever they want to help, and they're playing things way too safe.
Nah, they need to develop their existing concepts deeper. Passbook is the most interesting of the lot and in my view the most powerful. Siri needs another upgrade in accuracy based on users' collective search history since they own Safari and the iOS screen search. Then introduce integration and swiping across apps.
They also need to make the OS more refined. There have been some regressions. Fix all the glaring issues, and then start to clean up the UI visually to minimize the clutter. Do more content deals for the users.
That's what I meant about Ive.
Who is more important to Apple... Cook or Ive?
So if Ive strongly disagrees with Cook on a project what will happen? Cook aint Jobs. Cook's track record is in running the company. He wasn't the vision guy.
I'm not sure either is more important. To me, Ive is indispensable in terms if executing an envisioned product in terms of design. Tim seems to be indispensable in terms of supply chain management and seems to be doing quite well at running the ship overall. However, my concern is: who is now creating the actual visions and then make sure it gets done, internally as well as externally. Like my impression is that all that never ending negotiating with cable companies and media creators would have run differently under SJ. But that's just...like... My opinion. :-). Sorry for taking this slightly OT
Why didn't Apple just release Maps as a beta like they did with Siri. I think they will do this in future for such an important release.
I find a few things weak in Apple, e.g., Mail was weak awhile ago, Notes is weak. I don't like have 3 separate apps for Mail, iCal, Notes. I like the Outlook approach of one app for all three. (Hate MS though).
MobileMe was weak. But I stuck with it.
iWeb was weak. But the integration with iPhoto and Pages was far superior to anything else out there. Same with Numbers.
Again, I've put up with it because of the integration across the Apple platform and as time goes by, Apple always improves just about everything.
I like asking Siri for directions to the Airport and she just sets it all up. The Tom Tom App, which I thought was the best iPhone app I ever bought. But I had to type in the City, then the street name, then the address number....
However, I like that the Tom Tom App automatically changes to blue tones at night time.
Isle...
Based on your comments here, it appears as through you are dissatisfied with Tim Cook or his performance.
Care to elaborate?
Actually, Dick, "I" don't have to be dissatisfied to feel that Cook's job is tentative. He, in my opinion, isn't the most important guy on the team. I think that Ive is the most important guy, but Ive is also not a Steve Jobs.
Steve Jobs was not even the best idea guy, but he was definitely the guy who could plainly see which ideas would work and which ones wouldn't. He had a vision of where he wanted to take Apple. His track record speaks for itself.
Cook on the other hand hasn't shown us yet where he wants to take Apple and, in my opinion, if he has then I'm not sure about his route. A few heads have rolled and we can't necessarily say the right ones have been tossed out the door. That happens... again, we can look at Steve Jobs history with Apple as an example. Rubbing people the wrong way might not be the worst trait one can have in the Apple corporate world.
As I said... more at 6...
I agree with most of that!
One of Steve's traits was that he would micromanage a situation until he understood all the trade-offs and possibilities. Then he would find the talented people he needed to execute on that vision. Then he let them succeed, or fail…
Ive, Cook, and Ron Johnson are some notable examples of Job stepping aside (delegating) and letting people execute the vision.
Jobs made lots of mistakes – but he was a visionary, got to the heart of the matter and made decisions. He was right much more often than he was wrong.
I am sure that Cook, as CEO, will be challenged by Ives and other executives from time to time…
It will be interesting to see if Cook can subordinate his personality in order to implement the vision -- especially when the vision originates from someone else.
I believe Tim Cook has already proven that he can do this.
Actually, MS did not build their own mapping solution in-house. Bing maps is powered by Navteq which is owned by Nokia. The Bing mapping team built the UI front-end. So it's really no different than what Apple has done. On a side note, Apple should license mapping data from Navteq or use their $100+ billion war chest to buy them outright
I totally agree but is Navteq for sale? Nokia market cap is 12B of which Navteq is probably valued at a few billion but not anywhere as much as the 8 billion that Nokia paid for it.
I think Bing also uses several other third party vendors for their maps but all of it is integrated into their own data sets using their own enterprise technologies like MSSQL, SharePoint, Virtual Earth, Windows Server and their multitudes of datacenter building experiences as well as their Bing search data. Very little of which Apple has to any significant degree.
I'm less sanguine about Eddy Cue's ability to fix Maps than I'd like to be. His previous "successes" include iTunes (ubiquitous, but bloated and increasingly unmanageable, it's really Apple's MS Office) and iCloud (better than its predecessor perhaps, but still widely reviled for it's bugs, data corruption issues, downtime, odd limitations and general unreliability). Why would anyone think this is the guy to fix Maps?
To me one of the key things about the Maps issue was almost completely missed by the press and most commentators - the fact that when Apple put out a list of recommended mapping apps in the app store they omitted TomTom from it. Given that TomTom are one of the main suppliers of mapping data for Apple's Maps that seemed like a pretty clear statement by Apple as to where they thought the blame lay for the problems. Apple saw the problem as bad data supplied by TomTom. Now we hear TomTom have been 'prodded' by Eddie to fix the data they're supplying to Apple. I'll bet they have!
This is most likely why Scott Forstall wouldn't sign any public apology, as far as he was concerned the problem wasn't Apple's, it was (mostly anyway) TomTom's fault and he wanted them to fix their end first. Hence their omission from the app store 'recommended apps' list. Unfortunately for him he now had few friends left in the executive suites and they took advantage of this to get rid of him.
If Forstall pressuring TomTom by omitting them from the list of recommended apps and Eddie's additional "prodding" (whatever that involves) doesn't work to Apple's satisfaction I expect this dispute will end up in court. From Apple's perspective they are paying good money for mapping data from one of the leading companies in the field, it should be the same data TomTom use in their own highly regarded mapping apps, but it's apparently not. It's full of errors and embarrassment for Apple. That's got to upset them and have them itching to start throwing lawyers at the problem.
Ten years at Apple and no second chance? They could have just taken him off the project and assigned him somewhere else. So either they wanted to make a statement or there might be more to it.
We know very very little. There is definitely much more to everything to such things. Anyone who has ever been in a conflict situation with people knows this.
I totally agree but is Navteq for sale? Nokia market cap is 12B of which Navteq is probably valued at a few billion but not anywhere as much as the 8 billion that Nokia paid for it.
I think Bing also uses several other third party vendors for their maps but all of it is integrated into their own data sets using their own enterprise technologies like MSSQL, SharePoint, Virtual Earth, Windows Server and their multitudes of datacenter building experiences as well as their Bing search data. Very little of which Apple has to any significant degree.
I'm not sure if Navteq is for sale but there's nothing stopping Apple from making an offer. Apple uses MS Azure and Amazon EWC for their datacenter technologies so whatever server technologies MS is using, Apple is using as well.
The big difference is, is that Apple doesn't have search data like Bing and doesn't have the server / cloud services culture that MS, Google or Amazon have to build not only scalable, but reliable cloud services. That requires talent that's very different from building devices. Cloud services is where Apple is weakest and cloud services is where the war will be won. I feel sorry for Eddy Cue because whether he knows it or not his job is probably the most important one at Apple in terms of making their services functional and reliable.
Actually, MS did not build their own mapping solution in-house. Bing maps is powered by Navteq which is owned by Nokia. The Bing mapping team built the UI front-end. So it's really no different than what Apple has done. On a side note, Apple should license mapping data from Navteq or use their $100+ billion war chest to buy them outright
I totally agree but is Navteq for sale? Nokia market cap is 12B of which Navteq is probably valued at a few billion but not anywhere as much as the 8 billion that Nokia paid for it.
I think Bing also uses several other third party vendors for their maps but all of it is integrated into their own data sets using their own enterprise technologies like MSSQL, SharePoint, Virtual Earth, Windows Server and their multitudes of datacenter building experiences as well as their Bing search data. Very little of which Apple has to any significant degree.
This is a little OT...
But every now and again I have to stop and wonder where things would be today if…
Google had not chosen to compete with Apple by releasing Android...
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by allenbf
I have my doubts about the latter.
Having said that, I think his refusal to sign the letter (for either reason) was just the final straw. When you have people like Mansfield and Ive, who are the real lifeblood of Apple (especially since Jobs is gone) then you do what you have to do to keep them around. If Forstall couldn't work well with the other VPs, he had to go.
And maybe he didn't think to license the Swiss clock either, costing the company $26M...? THAT could have been the last straw...
Forstall's biggest mistake was the secrecy. As a result he failed to communicate the real situation and mismanaged the expectation.
For Eddy to fix Map, he will need to address the expectation and trust problem FIRST. If he can separate the accurate POIs from the unverified ones (yet) visually, it would give the users a way to mitigate their risk and expectation.
They should also impose the 24-48 hour map fix time. This would show the early users that things are getting better relatively quickly.
Small visible changes work best here. If Eddy chooses to revamp the entire thing, he will need to start a parallel effort.
Also getting outside help is a smart or rather the right move. But they should put in as much resources and $$$ as possible to automate the hourly map update.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider
... Cue reportedly pushed out Williamson quickly after he took on an expanded role that has put him in charge of iOS Maps. ...
This, as well as the title of the previous article are kind of re-writing history IMO.
Maps wasn't an "instant disaster" and it took a reasonable amount of time for Apple to even mention the problems or do anything about them. When they announced anything at all, they said that Eddie Cue was taking over but specifically *didn't* fire the guy in charge of the situation. After Eddie took over, he initiated a review of what happened and then only after that, he made the decision to let this guy go.
Despite what Apple Insider seems to be pushing here, he was most likely not fired out of spite or as revenge, or even because he was nominally in charge. It also didn't seem to happen "fast" or "quickly" at all to me. It seems more like a reasoned decision made after much thought.
this has to be the most overblown issue I've seen in a long time. Every time I've used it, the new Maps app works great. Far better than the old Google app.
Originally Posted by island hermit
Only a year has passed and already you are giving him full credit for everything that has been designed....
NOPE!
Exactly the opposite, in fact. I'd say less than half of post-Jobs' Apple's vision has been even hinted to, much less seen. Which is why I said wait.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
Unfortunately, I think Apple Maps will remain a patchwork of various partners' technology and data sets for some time, which, in my opinion is the fundamental issue going forward. Unlike Google who is simply extending the search data that they already own to their maps, Apple has to depend on several other third parties. In a way, Microsoft did a much better job with their back end and cloud services than Apple. Bing search and maps are reasonably good. They were smart to build it in-house. I think this is what Apple needs to do. Search and maps are services that naturally go together and if they share some of the same code base it makes them so much more efficient rather than having many disparate partners like Apple does. There is just too much unnecessary complexity in the way Apple did their mapping solution.
Without a ground up rewrite I can't really see Eddie being able to completely fix Apple Maps. Improve, sure, but really make it competitive with the other mapping solutions out there, not likely. Apple maps has one really strong feature, it is the default mapping app on iOS, but that is about it.
"Microsoft did a much better job with their back end and cloud services than Apple. Bing search and maps are reasonably good. They were smart to build it in-house."
Actually, MS did not build their own mapping solution in-house. Bing maps is powered by Navteq which is owned by Nokia. The Bing mapping team built the UI front-end. So it's really no different than what Apple has done. On a side note, Apple should license mapping data from Navteq or use their $100+ billion war chest to buy them outright
Nah, they need to develop their existing concepts deeper. Passbook is the most interesting of the lot and in my view the most powerful. Siri needs another upgrade in accuracy based on users' collective search history since they own Safari and the iOS screen search. Then introduce integration and swiping across apps.
They also need to make the OS more refined. There have been some regressions. Fix all the glaring issues, and then start to clean up the UI visually to minimize the clutter. Do more content deals for the users.
THEN do a big leap, away from the crowd.
Oh, I'm waiting...
I'm not sure either is more important. To me, Ive is indispensable in terms if executing an envisioned product in terms of design. Tim seems to be indispensable in terms of supply chain management and seems to be doing quite well at running the ship overall. However, my concern is: who is now creating the actual visions and then make sure it gets done, internally as well as externally. Like my impression is that all that never ending negotiating with cable companies and media creators would have run differently under SJ. But that's just...like... My opinion. :-). Sorry for taking this slightly OT
Why didn't Apple just release Maps as a beta like they did with Siri. I think they will do this in future for such an important release.
I find a few things weak in Apple, e.g., Mail was weak awhile ago, Notes is weak. I don't like have 3 separate apps for Mail, iCal, Notes. I like the Outlook approach of one app for all three. (Hate MS though).
MobileMe was weak. But I stuck with it.
iWeb was weak. But the integration with iPhoto and Pages was far superior to anything else out there. Same with Numbers.
Again, I've put up with it because of the integration across the Apple platform and as time goes by, Apple always improves just about everything.
I like asking Siri for directions to the Airport and she just sets it all up. The Tom Tom App, which I thought was the best iPhone app I ever bought. But I had to type in the City, then the street name, then the address number....
However, I like that the Tom Tom App automatically changes to blue tones at night time.
Anyway...people need to lighten up.
I agree with most of that!
One of Steve's traits was that he would micromanage a situation until he understood all the trade-offs and possibilities. Then he would find the talented people he needed to execute on that vision. Then he let them succeed, or fail…
Ive, Cook, and Ron Johnson are some notable examples of Job stepping aside (delegating) and letting people execute the vision.
Jobs made lots of mistakes – but he was a visionary, got to the heart of the matter and made decisions. He was right much more often than he was wrong.
I am sure that Cook, as CEO, will be challenged by Ives and other executives from time to time…
It will be interesting to see if Cook can subordinate his personality in order to implement the vision -- especially when the vision originates from someone else.
I believe Tim Cook has already proven that he can do this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shameer Mulji
Actually, MS did not build their own mapping solution in-house. Bing maps is powered by Navteq which is owned by Nokia. The Bing mapping team built the UI front-end. So it's really no different than what Apple has done. On a side note, Apple should license mapping data from Navteq or use their $100+ billion war chest to buy them outright
I totally agree but is Navteq for sale? Nokia market cap is 12B of which Navteq is probably valued at a few billion but not anywhere as much as the 8 billion that Nokia paid for it.
I think Bing also uses several other third party vendors for their maps but all of it is integrated into their own data sets using their own enterprise technologies like MSSQL, SharePoint, Virtual Earth, Windows Server and their multitudes of datacenter building experiences as well as their Bing search data. Very little of which Apple has to any significant degree.
To me one of the key things about the Maps issue was almost completely missed by the press and most commentators - the fact that when Apple put out a list of recommended mapping apps in the app store they omitted TomTom from it. Given that TomTom are one of the main suppliers of mapping data for Apple's Maps that seemed like a pretty clear statement by Apple as to where they thought the blame lay for the problems. Apple saw the problem as bad data supplied by TomTom. Now we hear TomTom have been 'prodded' by Eddie to fix the data they're supplying to Apple. I'll bet they have!
This is most likely why Scott Forstall wouldn't sign any public apology, as far as he was concerned the problem wasn't Apple's, it was (mostly anyway) TomTom's fault and he wanted them to fix their end first. Hence their omission from the app store 'recommended apps' list. Unfortunately for him he now had few friends left in the executive suites and they took advantage of this to get rid of him.
If Forstall pressuring TomTom by omitting them from the list of recommended apps and Eddie's additional "prodding" (whatever that involves) doesn't work to Apple's satisfaction I expect this dispute will end up in court. From Apple's perspective they are paying good money for mapping data from one of the leading companies in the field, it should be the same data TomTom use in their own highly regarded mapping apps, but it's apparently not. It's full of errors and embarrassment for Apple. That's got to upset them and have them itching to start throwing lawyers at the problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WonkoTheSane
Ten years at Apple and no second chance? They could have just taken him off the project and assigned him somewhere else. So either they wanted to make a statement or there might be more to it.
We know very very little. There is definitely much more to everything to such things. Anyone who has ever been in a conflict situation with people knows this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
I totally agree but is Navteq for sale? Nokia market cap is 12B of which Navteq is probably valued at a few billion but not anywhere as much as the 8 billion that Nokia paid for it.
I think Bing also uses several other third party vendors for their maps but all of it is integrated into their own data sets using their own enterprise technologies like MSSQL, SharePoint, Virtual Earth, Windows Server and their multitudes of datacenter building experiences as well as their Bing search data. Very little of which Apple has to any significant degree.
I'm not sure if Navteq is for sale but there's nothing stopping Apple from making an offer. Apple uses MS Azure and Amazon EWC for their datacenter technologies so whatever server technologies MS is using, Apple is using as well.
The big difference is, is that Apple doesn't have search data like Bing and doesn't have the server / cloud services culture that MS, Google or Amazon have to build not only scalable, but reliable cloud services. That requires talent that's very different from building devices. Cloud services is where Apple is weakest and cloud services is where the war will be won. I feel sorry for Eddy Cue because whether he knows it or not his job is probably the most important one at Apple in terms of making their services functional and reliable.
This is a little OT...
But every now and again I have to stop and wonder where things would be today if…
Google had not chosen to compete with Apple by releasing Android...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
This is a little OT...
But every now and again I have to stop and wonder where things would be today if…
Google had not chosen to compete with Apple by releasing Android...
What they could've done is merge and create the most powerful mobile platform...period.
All I want to know is, where's iTunes 11?
Try a 3D view of Oxford street .. Only the south side is 3D
Rendering of any satellite or 3D image is poor even via wireless on a 70 mbps connection, it appears at times apples servers can't ope
Some roads have incorrect names, despite notifying apple of the errors