I'm not dodging the question at, I even gave you another concrete example so you could make the comparison and understand what I'm saying, so I can't really understand how you read that as me avoiding the question. I've already fully explained what I said a number of times: Google Maps did not replace anything; Nokia Maps did not replace anything; so yes they can suck because people had no reason to expect anything from them. Apple Maps DID replace Google Maps, so no, it can not suck any more than Google Maps does, because by replacing Google Maps it essentially accepts the burden of being up to Google Maps' standards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse
OK, so, you're arguing, that anyone who releases software that replaces existing software (which must have been released first if it's being "replaced", but we'll ignore that for the sake of argument) must be perfect, but it's ok for the existing software to suck?
I want to make sure we have this straight since it's always so hard to figure out what you are trying to say.
You haven't answered this question yet. I'd have to say you are dodging it. And, it certainly does appear to be the claim you made, but, as I said, I want to be sure.
Ranting? So making a logical, factual argument is ranting?
Meanwhile, you and all the others who are screaming "Apple Maps sucks" (even though you haven't been able to show any reasonable comparison to support your claims) are not? (Note - just choosing one location where Apple fails is not evidence. There are also locations where Google fails and Apple gets it right. You're confusing 'anecdote' with 'evidence').
Wow. Just wow.
Are you familiar with the Tumblr site that was made after Apple Maps came out? It's pretty much an endless collection of user-submitted screenshots of all kinds of mistakes in Apple Maps. If that isn't "evidence", I don't know what is.
Do other mapping software have mistakes? Yes. Nothing's perfect. But some of the mistakes Apple Maps has (much like this article's example of misplacing whole cities) I just don't understand how it is possible.
Once place I do give Apple Maps the nod for clarity is sensitive facilities. Apple shows prisons, military bases, and other sensitive locations with great clarity...much to the annoyance of their home governments.
They'd have no maps instead of these maps. Because apparently they'd rather have nothing than something.
Originally Posted by AsianBob
Are you familiar with the Tumblr site that was made after Apple Maps came out? It's pretty much an endless collection of user-submitted screenshots of all kinds of mistakes in Apple Maps. If that isn't "evidence", I don't know what is.
It's not.
1. It's Tumblr.
2. There are just as many about Google Maps guffaws.
But some of the mistakes Apple Maps has (much like this article's example of misplacing whole cities) I just don't understand how it is possible.
Same mistakes that Google Maps had (or still have). I just don't understand how people think we can't see through their anti-Apple crap.
When folk follow a generic GPS without thinking, we call them idiots.
When folk follow the Maps app without thinking, Cupertino is 'endangering lives'.
You have accurately summarized the situation with regard to the question of safety. Navigation errors when using navigation systems tend to get more attention than source or end user mistakes with paper maps, probably because there is the feeling that one is simply following instructions rather than figuring it out oneself. That is one reason that all these systems come with disclaimers.
Similar warnings have been issued in the past regarding the practice of blindly following navigation system directions, but it does seem that errors in Apple's maps are leading to the complaints being taken to a new level, as seems to be common with all kinds of complaints about Apple products. The complete lack of common sense that must have led to the drivers in this case getting lost in the manner that they did is not uncommon unfortunately, and not infrequently leads to SAR deployment when it happens in wilderness areas, but seldom does it result in the navigation systems being blamed to this extent.
The question of whether Apple Maps is an acceptable replacement for Google Maps is a different question, and the answer clearly depends both on expectations and location.
Are you familiar with the Tumblr site that was made after Apple Maps came out? It's pretty much an endless collection of user-submitted screenshots of all kinds of mistakes in Apple Maps. If that isn't "evidence", I don't know what is. Do other mapping software have mistakes? Yes. Nothing's perfect. But some of the mistakes Apple Maps has (much like this article's example of misplacing whole cities) I just don't understand how it is possible.
Once place I do give Apple Maps the nod for clarity is sensitive facilities. Apple shows prisons, military bases, and other sensitive locations with great clarity...much to the annoyance of their home governments.
You realize there have been similar sites related to Google Maps? No one could understand how those were possible either. Does no one have an actual valid point?
So, you are claiming that no one ever got lost in Australia using any other mapping service?
Nice try with the straw man argument, but no, that is not what I claimed at all. I hardly think that the police notifying the public about a frequently recurring issue is "behaving irresponsibly" though. This would be like saying a city was "behaving irresponsibly" for putting up a crosswalk at an intersection with frequently recurring pedestrian accidents, even though accidents still happen at other intersections that were not 'critically evaluated'.
You haven't answered this question yet. I'd have to say you are dodging it. And, it certainly does appear to be the claim you made, but, as I said, I want to be sure.
Why would I be expected to answer a framed question? Your question is framed to rely on a logical fallacy, which I have already pointed ot, so why would I be required to answer it on your irrational terms?
Police are worried that Maps is leading them astray when the idiots are going out totally unprepared, i.e., no water in summer (or almost summer)? Are these fools trying for a Darwin Award or something? Talk about lack of bushcraft. Mindless idiots.
Unbelievable? Nah, there's one born every minute.
Quote:
Originally Posted by radster360
It is an stupidity of the individual. It has widely been published about issues with iOS6 map. If I I am going to be in wilderness, I better check out other map to validate the accuracy, especially when it has been a public knowledge about the iOS6 map. Secondly, the interesting thing the article mentions about lack of cell coverage in the area. Even with the correct map, the person would have not been able to follow the maps.
Apparently, Australia has found one thing or another to come after Apple. First, it was the LTE issue and now they are pulling this map non-sense. Apple, Screw Australia!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayz
I'm not convinced it was a set-up, but yes - these people are too stupid to hold driving licences.
When I read the headline, my notion for a comment was to ding the Aussie police for scare tactics and quote (I think) Lou Costello saying "Everybody wants to get into the [Apple-bashing] act!" But in point of fact, Apple is still encouraging people to believe in (and trust) Maps. And a product marketed around the world should work reasonably well wherever it's sold, and not just relatively better in its largest markets.
Right on the iPhone 5 features page, just beneath a picture of mapping directions it says: "You rely on your iPhone."
Which absolutely implies that you can... ...and therefore should do so.....
And about Maps itself, it still says:
Quote:
Maps designed by Apple.
The new Maps app gives you a better way to find your way. Map elements are vector based, which means graphics and text are incredibly sharp, even when you zoom in. Pan around, and you’ll instantly notice how smooth and responsive Maps is. Need directions from Point A to Point B? Maps not only shows you how to get there, it tells you — out loud, turn by turn. Maps also gives you real-time traffic information and reroutes you to avoid delays.
So rather than bash the people of an entire country ("Screw Australia!"), this is only becoming a bigger issue for Apple. Not everyone in the world reads tech news like Tim Cook's apology, and not everyone drives into a National Park for a lark equipped for a 24 hour walk caused by faulty tech (which I would certainly call "a delay") - but those who order from a web site or go to a store do believe what they're encouraged to believe.
And even though - as others have noted - no mapping system is flawless (including paper maps), Apple's baseline release - unless you can cite a thoroughly documented study to the contrary - seems more flawed than what it replaced.
There's legitimately defending Apple and then there's ignorant Apple Chauvinism (see - there are words other than "fanboi" to make the point). And these kinds of posts are clearly the latter.
Apple rushed in to ditch Google when they could have taken another year - with a half-baked product that could have been marked as Beta (like Siri) - and they're still not copping to it in their own marketing materials - so they deserve every bit of criticism they're getting on this one. And I expect will end up paying both to these folks (and maybe others) as well as in a tarnished reputation and a continuation of "Maps gate."
Once a perception sets in over a period of time (see Windows Blue Screen of Death - although I haven't had one in ages on my old Win VISTA machine), it lingers long after.
Also, noting that Eddy Cue has a lot on his plate is another weak defense. This called for a crash program from day one. I remember Apple moving people from one major team to another (I believe it was from OS X to then iPhone OS) to get a critical release out. While real mapping expertise may be in short supply, hiring a crew of temps to make sure that every user-submitted correction is logged, checked and dealt with in a timely manner is not beyond their resources.
I agree with most of what you say except:
Quote:
Apple rushed in to ditch Google when they could have taken another year - with a half-baked product that could have been marked as Beta
Apple may have had no choice:
I suspect that:
Apple and Google had a multi-year agreement that Google furnish back-end data and services to Apple's Maps app.
this agreement was renegotiated for each new iOS/iDevice release
existing and older iOSes and iDevices were supported as an extension (or a condition) of the existing agreement
I suspect that in the iOS 6 negotiations:
Apple wanted all the Map features available to Android
Google wanted to include ads in maps
Google wanted to track location and user data
A standoff resulted. If they could not reach agreement, Apple had no choice but to offer their own solution for new iDevices and iOS6 and discontinue the prior maps app for same.
I have no way of knowing that the above is true -- but I have 56 years of high tech experience and 34 years dealing with Apple... and a pretty good idea of the ritual dance among frenemies.
Nice try with the straw man argument, but no, that is not what I claimed at all. I hardly think that the police notifying the public about a frequently recurring issue is "behaving irresponsibly" though. This would be like saying a city was "behaving irresponsibly" for putting up a crosswalk at an intersection with frequently recurring pedestrian accidents, even though accidents still happen at other intersections that were not 'critically evaluated'.
Well, speaking of straw men and bad analogies...
But, I'm just trying to figure out what it is that you and others in this thread are trying to say, exactly what points you are trying to make. Because, frankly, none of you seems to have one and you are slippery as eels when we try to figure out what it might be.
But some of the mistakes Apple Maps has (much like this article's example of misplacing whole cities) I just don't understand how it is possible.
It is possible because Apple did a good job on the mapping, but a poor job on usability. The city isn't misplaced at all. There is just another, much larger entity with the same name. If the user doesn't supply anything like an address or postal code to differentiate, Apple returns the the centre of the bigger region instead of the town with the same name. Neither the data or not the app are technically doing anything wrong, but end result is very bad press.
Why would I be expected to answer a framed question? Your question is framed to rely on a logical fallacy, which I have already pointed ot, so why would I be required to answer it on your irrational terms?
I'm just trying to figure out what you were trying to say when you wrote,
Quote:
Google Maps does not have to be perfect because it did not replace anything.
Rewording it and asking you if that was what you meant is a legitimate method of trying to understand someone. It's not a framed question at all.
Well, if they were "endorsing" other solutions, they wouldn't be implying it, would they. That's not a question, Bob.
Have people ever gotten lost using other mapping solutions? Did the Australian police issue statements saying they presented a life threatening issue? If so, I withdraw my statement, otherwise, I stand by it. Frankly, I think they are just caught up in the hysteria, too.
I'm sure others have gotten lost using other mapping solutions. I just know that in these cases, the reason the tourists got lost was because they followed Apple Maps. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure one of the first questions the police asked them was what they were using to navigate with that got them into the situation.
Again, all I see is the police just reporting the facts as it is. Apple Maps was the common denominator in what I would assume is a higher than average string of people getting lost. So the police are asking people to not use it until Apple puts Mildura back where the rest of the world says it is. Nothing unprofessional at all.
And I don't see any proof they're "caught up in the hysteria". Unless there's some tin foil plot that you think is afoot...
So rather than bash the people of an entire country ("Screw Australia!"), this is only becoming a bigger issue for Apple. Not everyone in the world reads tech news like Tim Cook's apology, and not everyone drives into a National Park for a lark equipped for a 24 hour walk caused by faulty tech (which I would certainly call "a delay") - but those who order from a web site or go to a store do believe what they're encouraged to believe.
And even though - as others have noted - no mapping system is flawless (including paper maps), Apple's baseline release - unless you can cite a thoroughly documented study to the contrary - seems more flawed than what it replaced.
There's legitimately defending Apple and then there's ignorant Apple Chauvinism (see - there are words other than "fanboi" to make the point). And these kinds of posts are clearly the latter.
Apple rushed in to ditch Google when they could have taken another year - with a half-baked product that could have been marked as Beta (like Siri) - and they're still not copping to it in their own marketing materials - so they deserve every bit of criticism they're getting on this one. And I expect will end up paying both to these folks (and maybe others) as well as in a tarnished reputation and a continuation of "Maps gate."
Perhaps the reason they haven't changed the marketing materials is because they have a better idea of the real size of the problem, rather than guesswork based on the rumblings on the internet. This report, and the accompanying hysteria you've been swept along by, is based on a handful of people getting lost. How many others are actually reaching their destination using Apple Maps? Six, seven, or a few more than that?
I take your point on the advertising though. I once bought a packet of crisps that promised that they would be the 'best crisps I'd ever tasted'. They weren't. The packet is now in the hands of my lawyers.
Yeah, of course someone will sue. Someone always does.
Having said that, given the number of foul-ups with GPS these days, you'd think most operators would have been sued out of existence by now. I suspect that for the sake of a few bucks, no one really wants to stand up in court and admit they were foolish enough to follow their SatNav into the Pacific Ocean.
Unless there's some tin foil plot that you think is afoot...
It's hardly a conspiracy to say (truthfully) that the shortcomings of Google Maps, while identical to Apple Maps, are being not only ignored, but also actively obfuscated by… let's just call 'em detractors.
Rewording it and asking you if that was what you meant is a legitimate method of trying to understand someone. It's not a framed question at all.
Unless it's used to try to convey distinct concepts into an idea that misrepresents the opposition and then attacking that idea rather than the opposition.
I've already done so, I've even included another concrete case so you could understand the difference in one of my posts. What was it that you did not understand?
It is possible because Apple did a good job on the mapping, but a poor job on usability. The city isn't misplaced at all. There is just another, much larger entity with the same name. If the user doesn't supply anything like an address or postal code to differentiate, Apple returns the the centre of the bigger region instead of the town with the same name. Neither the data or not the app are technically doing anything wrong, but end result is very bad press.
So you're saying there's a "Mildura" in Murray-Sunset National Park?
The Tumblr site I posted earlier has more examples of various cities that Apple Maps has misplaced. Not all of them have a similarly named entity anywhere near them. All I'm questioning is where this mapping data is coming from. Is Apple not using the same base source Nokia and Google are using? Since there are already accurate maps, where was the cross-check?
For individual things like stores and the such, I can understand being slightly out of place. But entire cities?
And what did you not understand from my 4 posts following that?
Unless it's used to try to convey distinct concepts into an idea that misrepresents the opposition and then attacking that idea rather than the opposition.
I've already done so, I've even included another concrete case so you could understand the difference in one of my posts. What was it that you did not understand?
Still no straight answer? It really looks to me like you are dodging it. I don't blame you, though. It was a pretty ridiculous thing to write. I wouldn't want to have to try to explain it either.
But, just in case there is any confusion, we're trying to find out what this quote from you means:
Quote:
Google Maps does not have to be perfect because it did not replace anything.
Feel free to put it in "context" if you feel I'm taking it out of context. But, frankly, I don't see how it can mean anything but that you are arguing that Google Maps and Apple Maps ought to be judged by entirely different standards because Apple Maps "replaced" Google Maps. In which case, you need to explain why getting replaced absolves one solution from criticism.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelian
I'm not dodging the question at, I even gave you another concrete example so you could make the comparison and understand what I'm saying, so I can't really understand how you read that as me avoiding the question. I've already fully explained what I said a number of times: Google Maps did not replace anything; Nokia Maps did not replace anything; so yes they can suck because people had no reason to expect anything from them. Apple Maps DID replace Google Maps, so no, it can not suck any more than Google Maps does, because by replacing Google Maps it essentially accepts the burden of being up to Google Maps' standards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse
OK, so, you're arguing, that anyone who releases software that replaces existing software (which must have been released first if it's being "replaced", but we'll ignore that for the sake of argument) must be perfect, but it's ok for the existing software to suck?
I want to make sure we have this straight since it's always so hard to figure out what you are trying to say.
You haven't answered this question yet. I'd have to say you are dodging it. And, it certainly does appear to be the claim you made, but, as I said, I want to be sure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Ranting? So making a logical, factual argument is ranting?
Meanwhile, you and all the others who are screaming "Apple Maps sucks" (even though you haven't been able to show any reasonable comparison to support your claims) are not? (Note - just choosing one location where Apple fails is not evidence. There are also locations where Google fails and Apple gets it right. You're confusing 'anecdote' with 'evidence').
Wow. Just wow.
Are you familiar with the Tumblr site that was made after Apple Maps came out? It's pretty much an endless collection of user-submitted screenshots of all kinds of mistakes in Apple Maps. If that isn't "evidence", I don't know what is.
http://theamazingios6maps.tumblr.com
Do other mapping software have mistakes? Yes. Nothing's perfect. But some of the mistakes Apple Maps has (much like this article's example of misplacing whole cities) I just don't understand how it is possible.
Once place I do give Apple Maps the nod for clarity is sensitive facilities. Apple shows prisons, military bases, and other sensitive locations with great clarity...much to the annoyance of their home governments.
Originally Posted by Rayz
And how would that help Australia?
They'd have no maps instead of these maps. Because apparently they'd rather have nothing than something.
Originally Posted by AsianBob
Are you familiar with the Tumblr site that was made after Apple Maps came out? It's pretty much an endless collection of user-submitted screenshots of all kinds of mistakes in Apple Maps. If that isn't "evidence", I don't know what is.
It's not.
1. It's Tumblr.
2. There are just as many about Google Maps guffaws.
But some of the mistakes Apple Maps has (much like this article's example of misplacing whole cities) I just don't understand how it is possible.
Same mistakes that Google Maps had (or still have). I just don't understand how people think we can't see through their anti-Apple crap.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayz
Well, that's just it isn't?
When folk follow a generic GPS without thinking, we call them idiots.
When folk follow the Maps app without thinking, Cupertino is 'endangering lives'.
You have accurately summarized the situation with regard to the question of safety. Navigation errors when using navigation systems tend to get more attention than source or end user mistakes with paper maps, probably because there is the feeling that one is simply following instructions rather than figuring it out oneself. That is one reason that all these systems come with disclaimers.
Similar warnings have been issued in the past regarding the practice of blindly following navigation system directions, but it does seem that errors in Apple's maps are leading to the complaints being taken to a new level, as seems to be common with all kinds of complaints about Apple products. The complete lack of common sense that must have led to the drivers in this case getting lost in the manner that they did is not uncommon unfortunately, and not infrequently leads to SAR deployment when it happens in wilderness areas, but seldom does it result in the navigation systems being blamed to this extent.
The question of whether Apple Maps is an acceptable replacement for Google Maps is a different question, and the answer clearly depends both on expectations and location.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsianBob
Are you familiar with the Tumblr site that was made after Apple Maps came out? It's pretty much an endless collection of user-submitted screenshots of all kinds of mistakes in Apple Maps. If that isn't "evidence", I don't know what is. Do other mapping software have mistakes? Yes. Nothing's perfect. But some of the mistakes Apple Maps has (much like this article's example of misplacing whole cities) I just don't understand how it is possible.
Once place I do give Apple Maps the nod for clarity is sensitive facilities. Apple shows prisons, military bases, and other sensitive locations with great clarity...much to the annoyance of their home governments.
You realize there have been similar sites related to Google Maps? No one could understand how those were possible either. Does no one have an actual valid point?
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse
So, you are claiming that no one ever got lost in Australia using any other mapping service?
Nice try with the straw man argument, but no, that is not what I claimed at all. I hardly think that the police notifying the public about a frequently recurring issue is "behaving irresponsibly" though. This would be like saying a city was "behaving irresponsibly" for putting up a crosswalk at an intersection with frequently recurring pedestrian accidents, even though accidents still happen at other intersections that were not 'critically evaluated'.
Why would I be expected to answer a framed question? Your question is framed to rely on a logical fallacy, which I have already pointed ot, so why would I be required to answer it on your irrational terms?
Originally Posted by anonymouse
Does no one have an actual valid point?
Well, if Apple is still dragging their feet on transit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigpics
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexN
Police are worried that Maps is leading them astray when the idiots are going out totally unprepared, i.e., no water in summer (or almost summer)? Are these fools trying for a Darwin Award or something? Talk about lack of bushcraft. Mindless idiots.
Unbelievable? Nah, there's one born every minute.
Quote:
Originally Posted by radster360
It is an stupidity of the individual. It has widely been published about issues with iOS6 map. If I I am going to be in wilderness, I better check out other map to validate the accuracy, especially when it has been a public knowledge about the iOS6 map. Secondly, the interesting thing the article mentions about lack of cell coverage in the area. Even with the correct map, the person would have not been able to follow the maps.
Apparently, Australia has found one thing or another to come after Apple. First, it was the LTE issue and now they are pulling this map non-sense. Apple, Screw Australia!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayz
I'm not convinced it was a set-up, but yes - these people are too stupid to hold driving licences.
When I read the headline, my notion for a comment was to ding the Aussie police for scare tactics and quote (I think) Lou Costello saying "Everybody wants to get into the [Apple-bashing] act!" But in point of fact, Apple is still encouraging people to believe in (and trust) Maps. And a product marketed around the world should work reasonably well wherever it's sold, and not just relatively better in its largest markets.
Right on the iPhone 5 features page, just beneath a picture of mapping directions it says: "You rely on your iPhone."
Which absolutely implies that you can... ...and therefore should do so.....
And about Maps itself, it still says:
Quote:
The new Maps app gives you a better way to find your way. Map elements are vector based, which means graphics and text are incredibly sharp, even when you zoom in. Pan around, and you’ll instantly notice how smooth and responsive Maps is. Need directions from Point A to Point B? Maps not only shows you how to get there, it tells you — out loud, turn by turn. Maps also gives you real-time traffic information and reroutes you to avoid delays.Maps designed by Apple.
So rather than bash the people of an entire country ("Screw Australia!"), this is only becoming a bigger issue for Apple. Not everyone in the world reads tech news like Tim Cook's apology, and not everyone drives into a National Park for a lark equipped for a 24 hour walk caused by faulty tech (which I would certainly call "a delay") - but those who order from a web site or go to a store do believe what they're encouraged to believe.
And even though - as others have noted - no mapping system is flawless (including paper maps), Apple's baseline release - unless you can cite a thoroughly documented study to the contrary - seems more flawed than what it replaced.
There's legitimately defending Apple and then there's ignorant Apple Chauvinism (see - there are words other than "fanboi" to make the point). And these kinds of posts are clearly the latter.
Apple rushed in to ditch Google when they could have taken another year - with a half-baked product that could have been marked as Beta (like Siri) - and they're still not copping to it in their own marketing materials - so they deserve every bit of criticism they're getting on this one. And I expect will end up paying both to these folks (and maybe others) as well as in a tarnished reputation and a continuation of "Maps gate."
Once a perception sets in over a period of time (see Windows Blue Screen of Death - although I haven't had one in ages on my old Win VISTA machine), it lingers long after.
Also, noting that Eddy Cue has a lot on his plate is another weak defense. This called for a crash program from day one. I remember Apple moving people from one major team to another (I believe it was from OS X to then iPhone OS) to get a critical release out. While real mapping expertise may be in short supply, hiring a crew of temps to make sure that every user-submitted correction is logged, checked and dealt with in a timely manner is not beyond their resources.
I agree with most of what you say except:
Quote:
Apple rushed in to ditch Google when they could have taken another year - with a half-baked product that could have been marked as Beta
Apple may have had no choice:
I suspect that:
Apple and Google had a multi-year agreement that Google furnish back-end data and services to Apple's Maps app.
this agreement was renegotiated for each new iOS/iDevice release
existing and older iOSes and iDevices were supported as an extension (or a condition) of the existing agreement
I suspect that in the iOS 6 negotiations:
Apple wanted all the Map features available to Android
Google wanted to include ads in maps
Google wanted to track location and user data
A standoff resulted. If they could not reach agreement, Apple had no choice but to offer their own solution for new iDevices and iOS6 and discontinue the prior maps app for same.
I have no way of knowing that the above is true -- but I have 56 years of high tech experience and 34 years dealing with Apple... and a pretty good idea of the ritual dance among frenemies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by e_veritas
Nice try with the straw man argument, but no, that is not what I claimed at all. I hardly think that the police notifying the public about a frequently recurring issue is "behaving irresponsibly" though. This would be like saying a city was "behaving irresponsibly" for putting up a crosswalk at an intersection with frequently recurring pedestrian accidents, even though accidents still happen at other intersections that were not 'critically evaluated'.
Well, speaking of straw men and bad analogies...
But, I'm just trying to figure out what it is that you and others in this thread are trying to say, exactly what points you are trying to make. Because, frankly, none of you seems to have one and you are slippery as eels when we try to figure out what it might be.
So, please, what are you claiming?
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsianBob
But some of the mistakes Apple Maps has (much like this article's example of misplacing whole cities) I just don't understand how it is possible.
It is possible because Apple did a good job on the mapping, but a poor job on usability. The city isn't misplaced at all. There is just another, much larger entity with the same name. If the user doesn't supply anything like an address or postal code to differentiate, Apple returns the the centre of the bigger region instead of the town with the same name. Neither the data or not the app are technically doing anything wrong, but end result is very bad press.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelian
Why would I be expected to answer a framed question? Your question is framed to rely on a logical fallacy, which I have already pointed ot, so why would I be required to answer it on your irrational terms?
I'm just trying to figure out what you were trying to say when you wrote,
Quote:
Google Maps does not have to be perfect because it did not replace anything.
Rewording it and asking you if that was what you meant is a legitimate method of trying to understand someone. It's not a framed question at all.
But, please, tell us exactly what you did mean.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse
Well, if they were "endorsing" other solutions, they wouldn't be implying it, would they. That's not a question, Bob.
Have people ever gotten lost using other mapping solutions? Did the Australian police issue statements saying they presented a life threatening issue? If so, I withdraw my statement, otherwise, I stand by it. Frankly, I think they are just caught up in the hysteria, too.
I'm sure others have gotten lost using other mapping solutions. I just know that in these cases, the reason the tourists got lost was because they followed Apple Maps. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure one of the first questions the police asked them was what they were using to navigate with that got them into the situation.
Again, all I see is the police just reporting the facts as it is. Apple Maps was the common denominator in what I would assume is a higher than average string of people getting lost. So the police are asking people to not use it until Apple puts Mildura back where the rest of the world says it is. Nothing unprofessional at all.
And I don't see any proof they're "caught up in the hysteria". Unless there's some tin foil plot that you think is afoot...
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigpics
So rather than bash the people of an entire country ("Screw Australia!"), this is only becoming a bigger issue for Apple. Not everyone in the world reads tech news like Tim Cook's apology, and not everyone drives into a National Park for a lark equipped for a 24 hour walk caused by faulty tech (which I would certainly call "a delay") - but those who order from a web site or go to a store do believe what they're encouraged to believe.
And even though - as others have noted - no mapping system is flawless (including paper maps), Apple's baseline release - unless you can cite a thoroughly documented study to the contrary - seems more flawed than what it replaced.
There's legitimately defending Apple and then there's ignorant Apple Chauvinism (see - there are words other than "fanboi" to make the point). And these kinds of posts are clearly the latter.
Apple rushed in to ditch Google when they could have taken another year - with a half-baked product that could have been marked as Beta (like Siri) - and they're still not copping to it in their own marketing materials - so they deserve every bit of criticism they're getting on this one. And I expect will end up paying both to these folks (and maybe others) as well as in a tarnished reputation and a continuation of "Maps gate."
Perhaps the reason they haven't changed the marketing materials is because they have a better idea of the real size of the problem, rather than guesswork based on the rumblings on the internet. This report, and the accompanying hysteria you've been swept along by, is based on a handful of people getting lost. How many others are actually reaching their destination using Apple Maps? Six, seven, or a few more than that?
I take your point on the advertising though. I once bought a packet of crisps that promised that they would be the 'best crisps I'd ever tasted'. They weren't. The packet is now in the hands of my lawyers.
Yeah, of course someone will sue. Someone always does.
Having said that, given the number of foul-ups with GPS these days, you'd think most operators would have been sued out of existence by now. I suspect that for the sake of a few bucks, no one really wants to stand up in court and admit they were foolish enough to follow their SatNav into the Pacific Ocean.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
The real issue here, is how long does it take Apple to fix the problem.
Umm, maybe never. It's whole lot cheaper just let the police to ask Australian not to use Apple map instead of fixing it.
Originally Posted by AsianBob
Unless there's some tin foil plot that you think is afoot...
It's hardly a conspiracy to say (truthfully) that the shortcomings of Google Maps, while identical to Apple Maps, are being not only ignored, but also actively obfuscated by… let's just call 'em detractors.
And what did you not understand from my 4 posts following that?
Unless it's used to try to convey distinct concepts into an idea that misrepresents the opposition and then attacking that idea rather than the opposition.
I've already done so, I've even included another concrete case so you could understand the difference in one of my posts. What was it that you did not understand?
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsianBob
And I don't see any proof they're "caught up in the hysteria". Unless there's some tin foil plot that you think is afoot...
Sorry, Bob, but being caught up in hysteria implies there is no tin foil plot, just hysteria.
(Gotta love the tin foil reference in the context of the present thread, though.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tflanders
It is possible because Apple did a good job on the mapping, but a poor job on usability. The city isn't misplaced at all. There is just another, much larger entity with the same name. If the user doesn't supply anything like an address or postal code to differentiate, Apple returns the the centre of the bigger region instead of the town with the same name. Neither the data or not the app are technically doing anything wrong, but end result is very bad press.
So you're saying there's a "Mildura" in Murray-Sunset National Park?
The Tumblr site I posted earlier has more examples of various cities that Apple Maps has misplaced. Not all of them have a similarly named entity anywhere near them. All I'm questioning is where this mapping data is coming from. Is Apple not using the same base source Nokia and Google are using? Since there are already accurate maps, where was the cross-check?
For individual things like stores and the such, I can understand being slightly out of place. But entire cities?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelian
And what did you not understand from my 4 posts following that?
Unless it's used to try to convey distinct concepts into an idea that misrepresents the opposition and then attacking that idea rather than the opposition.
I've already done so, I've even included another concrete case so you could understand the difference in one of my posts. What was it that you did not understand?
Still no straight answer? It really looks to me like you are dodging it. I don't blame you, though. It was a pretty ridiculous thing to write. I wouldn't want to have to try to explain it either.
But, just in case there is any confusion, we're trying to find out what this quote from you means:
Quote:
Google Maps does not have to be perfect because it did not replace anything.
Feel free to put it in "context" if you feel I'm taking it out of context. But, frankly, I don't see how it can mean anything but that you are arguing that Google Maps and Apple Maps ought to be judged by entirely different standards because Apple Maps "replaced" Google Maps. In which case, you need to explain why getting replaced absolves one solution from criticism.