I'm a big fan of national parks and travel to one or more per year. The US was the first to officially establish one, Yellowstone, in 1872. I also enjoy my TomTom app on my iPhone. That said, I have never once thought to use an electronic map in the park. Perhaps it's different in Australia than in the US but they usually offer comprehensive maps near or at the entrance of the park.
Not really. They have gigantic areas of wilderness where you can't get wireless service. Even if you could, why would you rely on something with a battery as your only means of navigation? Analogue tools are still superior for such things. You can generally purchase printed maps locally, and a compass isn't a bad idea, especially if you aren't sticking to well marked trails. Not all trails there are well marked or maintained. A lot of the overland trails tend to be somewhat rough, and some of these parks can't even be entered by car.
Even then it's still a good idea to warn people not to count on Apple Maps as a sole source of reference. They may result in poor driving plans if they're that far off.
I'd have to disagree with the statement that analogue tools are better. Even with a map and a compass, self-location is not trivial, and not accurate in the absence of good visibility and distinctive landmarks. A GPS with cached maps is the tool of choice in most situations, with a map and compass as backup. Electrical power is not generally an issue in a vehicle.
I'd have to disagree with the statement that analogue tools are better. Even with a map and a compass, self-location is not trivial, and not accurate in the absence of good visibility and distinctive landmarks. A GPS with cached maps is the tool of choice in most situations, with a map and compass as backup. Electrical power is not generally an issue in a vehicle.
While I agree with you, note that these people left their vehicles and wandered around for 24 hours. With 24 hours of continually checking your maps, their phone battery would have been dead.
I'm still convinced it was a setup.
For months, there were no reported problems. Then, all at once, we have "a number of people" in 2 months who:
1. Relied on Apple Maps to get them to the location.
2. Entered the city name but not the address (I can't remember the last time I did that. I rarely just want to go to a city, I want to go to a specific place in the city)
3. They didn't check in advance to see if the maps were correct.
4. They didn't ever even consider that they were being sent through a remote park location
5. They got out of their vehicles and wandered around
6. They didn't have water, food, or any other supplies
It's just far too much of a coincidence for this to be plausible.
And I demonstrated to be open to that possibility. If you don't think I refuted everything, please bring it up for further discussion and clarification.
Well, you were, using your own rules of argument, universally and permanently refuted, so we're done with you.
I'd have to disagree with the statement that analogue tools are better. Even with a map and a compass, self-location is not trivial, and not accurate in the absence of good visibility and distinctive landmarks. A GPS with cached maps is the tool of choice in most situations, with a map and compass as backup. Electrical power is not generally an issue in a vehicle.
While I agree with you, note that these people left their vehicles and wandered around for 24 hours. With 24 hours of continually checking your maps, their phone battery would have been dead.
I'm still convinced it was a setup.
For months, there were no reported problems. Then, all at once, we have "a number of people" in 2 months who:
1. Relied on Apple Maps to get them to the location.
2. Entered the city name but not the address (I can't remember the last time I did that. I rarely just want to go to a city, I want to go to a specific place in the city)
3. They didn't check in advance to see if the maps were correct.
4. They didn't ever even consider that they were being sent through a remote park location
5. They got out of their vehicles and wandered around
6. They didn't have water, food, or any other supplies
It's just far too much of a coincidence for this to be plausible.
Some of them apparently left their vehicles to look for cell phone reception, after somehow getting stranded, but it's not very clear how they managed to get stranded. The location that iOS Maps marked as the center of Mildura LGA is less than 30 miles from the nearest main road, and it should have been simple to reverse navigation. If they were just wandering around then they cannot have been checking their maps.
I agree that it looks a bit fishy, but it would risk serious legal trouble to manufacture such events. I'm inclined to think that the rash of mishaps was just coincidental. I've seen similar geographic clusters of such situations for no apparent reason and with no connection. While I cannot begin to imagine the lack of situational awareness necessary to keep driving on unmarked and increasingly poor backcountry roads in a wilderness environment without deciding to return to a main road, I have seen it happen a number of times.
I'd have to disagree with the statement that analogue tools are better. Even with a map and a compass, self-location is not trivial, and not accurate in the absence of good visibility and distinctive landmarks.
You should always ship a sextant and a good chronometer as a backup to GPS anyway.
I'd have to disagree with the statement that analogue tools are better. Even with a map and a compass, self-location is not trivial, and not accurate in the absence of good visibility and distinctive landmarks.
You should always ship a sextant and a good chronometer as a backup to GPS anyway.
Nope, it wasn't. The claims of accuracy were part of someone else's argument which relevance was never fully explained
I know I said we were done with you, and we are, but I really had a good laugh when I read this. Did you happen to notice the title of the article this forum thread is attached to?
Inaccurate Apple Maps directions causes 'life threatening issue' for travelers, says Australian...
And you need someone to explain to you the relevance of accuracy to this discussion?
(I hate the emoticons, I really do, but I just can't find words to adequately express the sentiment.)
Looks like the real blame might be Victoria if not Australian govt. Not only do they not require road signs in rural areas and haven't pushed for better cell service but apparently their own authoritative source for city and town information, which might have been Apples source has two Mildura listings
In the wake of criticism over its Maps application for iOS 6, Apple has revised its website to no longer refer to the software as the most "powerful mapping service ever."
"....Apple's new mapping solution is generally seen as inferior to the product it replaced, which was powered by Google Maps."
What part of your statement "As I see it, you can make the following 2 assumptions based upon these observations" do you not understand? It says that one can make 2 assumptions. The rest of the post (including the Occam's Razor comment) reinforce that. You were presenting the two options as if they were the only options. Without that assumption, the entire Occam's razor comment would be meaningless (that is, if there were three or more options, then choosing from only two of them would be foolish).
I love it when the trolls like you are proven wrong and you double down on your stupid comments.
What part of me setting up 2 scenarios for comparison do you not understand? Since when did "you can make the following 2 assumptions" equate "you can ONLY make the following 2 assumptions". I have already stated that this was never implied, it was never explicitly made, yet you still keep asserting it. Why?
Regarding the troll comment, I'm afraid I'm not the one who has already been called that in this thread alone. Considering your persistent provoking and inflammatory remarks, I would have to say I concur with others that YOU are indeed the troll in the room tonight...
As an Australian, I'd like to take the opportunity to say:
Hey, Dumbasses!
Research trips more thoroughly using more than a single source of information that isn't the first version of a type of technology!
Or buy Android, which has a real mapping system. Your argument is that if iPhone isn't as good as the other systems, then people should research their trips better? What a bad argument.
Also, I agree with the fact people _should_ have researched their trips, but you can't fail them for trusting a $700+ piece of hardware that's advertised as "top of the line"...
Looks like the real blame might be Victoria if not Australian govt. Not only do they not require road signs in rural areas and haven't pushed for better cell service but apparently their own authoritative source for city and town information, which might have been Apples source has two Mildura listings
No, it's not. When you specify a single vendor as being a problem, there's an implication that the others are OK. So mindless people who go wandering in the wilderness with no food, no water, no maps, and no intelligence will get lost with someone else's GPS next time.
The proper response would have been to warn them that relying on GPS was foolish and that people should carry emergency supplies in their car when driving in remote locations and not to leave the car except in an emergency.
That's very exact. However, the fact that Google spent billions prooofing their data with cars (while advertising the service as a beta) while Apple has pushed Apple Maps as a selling point for their devices and relies on the paying users to correct them still in an Apple failure.
The fact that ordinary users don't have a clue about the inaccuracy of GPS and the basic security measures involved in surviving zombies invasions the wilderness also can be pointed to advertisement. Apple did not quite advertise their system as "sorry, could be completely inaccurate", and even if they might have left some small-type lettering under videos, they also share a responsibility there.
I don't mean I have a solution, I just say that Appple hasn't quite done their best, and they know it.
Comments
[IMG ALT=""]http://forums.appleinsider.com/content/type/61/id/17578/width/350/height/700[/IMG]
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
I'm a big fan of national parks and travel to one or more per year. The US was the first to officially establish one, Yellowstone, in 1872. I also enjoy my TomTom app on my iPhone. That said, I have never once thought to use an electronic map in the park. Perhaps it's different in Australia than in the US but they usually offer comprehensive maps near or at the entrance of the park.
Not really. They have gigantic areas of wilderness where you can't get wireless service. Even if you could, why would you rely on something with a battery as your only means of navigation? Analogue tools are still superior for such things. You can generally purchase printed maps locally, and a compass isn't a bad idea, especially if you aren't sticking to well marked trails. Not all trails there are well marked or maintained. A lot of the overland trails tend to be somewhat rough, and some of these parks can't even be entered by car.
Even then it's still a good idea to warn people not to count on Apple Maps as a sole source of reference. They may result in poor driving plans if they're that far off.
I'd have to disagree with the statement that analogue tools are better. Even with a map and a compass, self-location is not trivial, and not accurate in the absence of good visibility and distinctive landmarks. A GPS with cached maps is the tool of choice in most situations, with a map and compass as backup. Electrical power is not generally an issue in a vehicle.
While I agree with you, note that these people left their vehicles and wandered around for 24 hours. With 24 hours of continually checking your maps, their phone battery would have been dead.
I'm still convinced it was a setup.
For months, there were no reported problems. Then, all at once, we have "a number of people" in 2 months who:
1. Relied on Apple Maps to get them to the location.
2. Entered the city name but not the address (I can't remember the last time I did that. I rarely just want to go to a city, I want to go to a specific place in the city)
3. They didn't check in advance to see if the maps were correct.
4. They didn't ever even consider that they were being sent through a remote park location
5. They got out of their vehicles and wandered around
6. They didn't have water, food, or any other supplies
It's just far too much of a coincidence for this to be plausible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelian
And I demonstrated to be open to that possibility. If you don't think I refuted everything, please bring it up for further discussion and clarification.
Well, you were, using your own rules of argument, universally and permanently refuted, so we're done with you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry
I'd have to disagree with the statement that analogue tools are better. Even with a map and a compass, self-location is not trivial, and not accurate in the absence of good visibility and distinctive landmarks. A GPS with cached maps is the tool of choice in most situations, with a map and compass as backup. Electrical power is not generally an issue in a vehicle.
While I agree with you, note that these people left their vehicles and wandered around for 24 hours. With 24 hours of continually checking your maps, their phone battery would have been dead.
I'm still convinced it was a setup.
For months, there were no reported problems. Then, all at once, we have "a number of people" in 2 months who:
1. Relied on Apple Maps to get them to the location.
2. Entered the city name but not the address (I can't remember the last time I did that. I rarely just want to go to a city, I want to go to a specific place in the city)
3. They didn't check in advance to see if the maps were correct.
4. They didn't ever even consider that they were being sent through a remote park location
5. They got out of their vehicles and wandered around
6. They didn't have water, food, or any other supplies
It's just far too much of a coincidence for this to be plausible.
Some of them apparently left their vehicles to look for cell phone reception, after somehow getting stranded, but it's not very clear how they managed to get stranded. The location that iOS Maps marked as the center of Mildura LGA is less than 30 miles from the nearest main road, and it should have been simple to reverse navigation. If they were just wandering around then they cannot have been checking their maps.
I agree that it looks a bit fishy, but it would risk serious legal trouble to manufacture such events. I'm inclined to think that the rash of mishaps was just coincidental. I've seen similar geographic clusters of such situations for no apparent reason and with no connection. While I cannot begin to imagine the lack of situational awareness necessary to keep driving on unmarked and increasingly poor backcountry roads in a wilderness environment without deciding to return to a main road, I have seen it happen a number of times.
Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry
I'd have to disagree with the statement that analogue tools are better. Even with a map and a compass, self-location is not trivial, and not accurate in the absence of good visibility and distinctive landmarks.
You should always ship a sextant and a good chronometer as a backup to GPS anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse
Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry
I'd have to disagree with the statement that analogue tools are better. Even with a map and a compass, self-location is not trivial, and not accurate in the absence of good visibility and distinctive landmarks.
You should always ship a sextant and a good chronometer as a backup to GPS anyway.
Don't leave home without them.
...Here be dragons...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
...Here be dragons...
I can imagine Siri warning about that.
"Bushcraft" ? As an American, this is a foreign but altogether awesome concept
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelian
Nope, it wasn't. The claims of accuracy were part of someone else's argument which relevance was never fully explained
I know I said we were done with you, and we are, but I really had a good laugh when I read this. Did you happen to notice the title of the article this forum thread is attached to?
Inaccurate Apple Maps directions causes 'life threatening issue' for travelers, says Australian...
And you need someone to explain to you the relevance of accuracy to this discussion?
(I hate the emoticons, I really do, but I just can't find words to adequately express the sentiment.)
I was taught that a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush...
But, a push in the bush I don't understand...
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12/10/apple_maps_ghost_mildura/
More than 2 months prior to today's debacle, people were already saying apple maps is inferior to what it replaced.
Sunday, September 30, 2012, 02:06 pm
Revised Apple website no longer calls iOS 6 Maps most 'powerful'
By AppleInsider Staff
In the wake of criticism over its Maps application for iOS 6, Apple has revised its website to no longer refer to the software as the most "powerful mapping service ever."
"....Apple's new mapping solution is generally seen as inferior to the product it replaced, which was powered by Google Maps."
http://appleinsider.com/articles/12/09/30/revised-apple-website-no-longer-calls-ios-6-maps-most-powerful
Nazi, Hitler...
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
What part of your statement "As I see it, you can make the following 2 assumptions based upon these observations" do you not understand? It says that one can make 2 assumptions. The rest of the post (including the Occam's Razor comment) reinforce that. You were presenting the two options as if they were the only options. Without that assumption, the entire Occam's razor comment would be meaningless (that is, if there were three or more options, then choosing from only two of them would be foolish).
I love it when the trolls like you are proven wrong and you double down on your stupid comments.
What part of me setting up 2 scenarios for comparison do you not understand? Since when did "you can make the following 2 assumptions" equate "you can ONLY make the following 2 assumptions". I have already stated that this was never implied, it was never explicitly made, yet you still keep asserting it. Why?
Regarding the troll comment, I'm afraid I'm not the one who has already been called that in this thread alone. Considering your persistent provoking and inflammatory remarks, I would have to say I concur with others that YOU are indeed the troll in the room tonight...
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTR
As an Australian, I'd like to take the opportunity to say:
Hey, Dumbasses!
Research trips more thoroughly using more than a single source of information that isn't the first version of a type of technology!
Or buy Android, which has a real mapping system. Your argument is that if iPhone isn't as good as the other systems, then people should research their trips better? What a bad argument.
Also, I agree with the fact people _should_ have researched their trips, but you can't fail them for trusting a $700+ piece of hardware that's advertised as "top of the line"...
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna
Looks like the real blame might be Victoria if not Australian govt. Not only do they not require road signs in rural areas and haven't pushed for better cell service but apparently their own authoritative source for city and town information, which might have been Apples source has two Mildura listings
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12/10/apple_maps_ghost_mildura/
Well, now that's interesting, very nice point they have here...
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
No, it's not. When you specify a single vendor as being a problem, there's an implication that the others are OK. So mindless people who go wandering in the wilderness with no food, no water, no maps, and no intelligence will get lost with someone else's GPS next time.
The proper response would have been to warn them that relying on GPS was foolish and that people should carry emergency supplies in their car when driving in remote locations and not to leave the car except in an emergency.
That's very exact. However, the fact that Google spent billions prooofing their data with cars (while advertising the service as a beta) while Apple has pushed Apple Maps as a selling point for their devices and relies on the paying users to correct them still in an Apple failure.
The fact that ordinary users don't have a clue about the inaccuracy of GPS and the basic security measures involved in surviving zombies invasions the wilderness also can be pointed to advertisement. Apple did not quite advertise their system as "sorry, could be completely inaccurate", and even if they might have left some small-type lettering under videos, they also share a responsibility there.
I don't mean I have a solution, I just say that Appple hasn't quite done their best, and they know it.