You all people should get a life an stop talking about the same stuff all the time. Don't you have better things to do? Is it really worth having 11 pages to say nothing? This thread is pointless.
As an Australian, I'd like to take the opportunity to say: Hey, Dumbasses!, make sure you thoroughly test your shit before releasing it. You never know, someone might be stupid enough to use it.
Thanks for that post; easiest way to enlarge my blocklist with the thumbs-up you got with this post.
It's seems a fairly basic programming error: if your source maps contain both city names and government jurisdictional boundaries, you must differentiate between them when loading them to the database.
While I agree with you, note that these people left their vehicles and wandered around for 24 hours. With 24 hours of continually checking your maps, their phone battery would have been dead.
I'm still convinced it was a setup.
For months, there were no reported problems. Then, all at once, we have "a number of people" in 2 months who:
1. Relied on Apple Maps to get them to the location.
2. Entered the city name but not the address (I can't remember the last time I did that. I rarely just want to go to a city, I want to go to a specific place in the city)
3. They didn't check in advance to see if the maps were correct.
4. They didn't ever even consider that they were being sent through a remote park location
5. They got out of their vehicles and wandered around
6. They didn't have water, food, or any other supplies
It's just far too much of a coincidence for this to be plausible.
1. We're heading into holiday season here. This is not a week over Christmas. It's our July holiday period.
2. Maybe the authorities were waiting for more than a single incident. don't want to be crying wolf, now.
3. National parks here don't have picket fences around them and it's typical for them to have thoroughfares.
4. Although Australia is a big place you can drive across Victoria in the better part of a day. You're not going to carry around a gallon of water and weeks supply of twinkies for a day trip.
5. I think you're wearing a tin foil hat on this one.
It's shitty data. That's all there is to say about it. Oh, and that Apple is using that shitty data. And we can whine about it because this native app replaced the other native app which for me was perfectly serviceable. I haven't used maps in months, not since I spent an hour driving around in circles in the nations capital because there was no mapping data for an outlying suburb. Oh that, and all the business names in the city centre are a jumble of misplaced pins, not to mention the Starbucks, which while accurately placed, had shut years ago.
When I got up this morning I found that this thread had bloated somewhat alarming overnight (overnight in Oz, that is).
This looked a lot like a sudden influx of trolls, but having paged through the subsequent 10 pages I notice that it's mostly the regular suspects . Having had busier day than usual I didn't have time to look at the thread until this evening, and in the meantime I started mangling an old nursery rhyme to fit my preconception of things. The situation isn't quite as bad as I thought, although there is some apparent trolling, so here's the adaptation of that nursery rhyme for you all:
Trolls and shills come out to play
The Moon is shining as bright as Day
Leave your supper and leave your sleep
And come join your play fellows chasing the sheep
Come with a whoop and come with a call
And come with a cudgel or not at all...
(Girls and Boys Come Out to Play, Trad.)
I didn't do the whole thing as that's all that I can remember, although the Wikipedia has the whole thing.
I've noticed that there has been a lot of holier-then-thou tub-thumping when it comes to criticising Maps especially (the Apple Discussion Forums are a case in point) - I can't avoid the criticism having done quite a bit of that myself, but I am very slowly learning not do do such things. Righteous indignation is all very well, but one should ponder about one's own behaviour before hefting a half-brick.
Don't worry, I'll crawl back under my rock soon enough .
I made a point in another thread the other day that the original Apple web-page for iOS6 said that the Maps app "might just be the most beautiful, powerful maps app ever" - it didn't say that it was (even it it might have rather unfortunately suggested that it was). A bit of humility or honesty on Apple's part at the time of Scott Forstall's demonstration or at the release might have made things a lot smoother.
I don't really have much more to say that is constructive, but I will add that Apple's maps for some strange reason seems to be almost perfectly accurate in the neck o' the woods of Sydney that I infest.
Let's be honest, Mildura has a local population of 30,000,
I'd be very surprised if Apple hasn't already received a dozens of complaints about the obvious location problem. I think the true thing to focus on, is why is it taking Apple so long to fix these very obvious problems?
I reported my towns lack of location marker - this was when iOS was released... And still it hasn't been fixed... Also, many regional towns around me, don't exist by looking at the map... What's up with that?
What part of me setting up 2 scenarios for comparison do you not understand? Since when did "you can make the following 2 assumptions" equate "you can ONLY make the following 2 assumptions". I have already stated that this was never implied, it was never explicitly made, yet you still keep asserting it. Why?
You took a complex issue and reduced it to two options. You specifically stated that someone had to choose from those two options and then used Occam's razor to select one of the options. Logically, that's invalid when there are three or more options actually available.
Yes, you COULD HAVE presented a third or fourth option (in which case it would not have been a false dichotomy argument), but you didn't. So don't pretend that the fact that you had other options makes this any less of a false dichotomy.
Regarding the troll comment, I'm afraid I'm not the one who has already been called that in this thread alone. Considering your persistent provoking and inflammatory remarks, I would have to say I concur with others that YOU are indeed the troll in the room tonight...
Only if you've redefined troll as someone who consistently and regularly points out all the flaws in your logic.
That's very exact. However, the fact that Google spent billions prooofing their data with cars (while advertising the service as a beta) while Apple has pushed Apple Maps as a selling point for their devices and relies on the paying users to correct them still in an Apple failure.
The fact that ordinary users don't have a clue about the inaccuracy of GPS and the basic security measures involved in surviving zombies invasions the wilderness also can be pointed to advertisement. Apple did not quite advertise their system as "sorry, could be completely inaccurate", and even if they might have left some small-type lettering under videos, they also share a responsibility there.
I don't mean I have a solution, I just say that Appple hasn't quite done their best, and they know it.
So any device that's imperfect is a failure. Got it.
Besides, you're completely ignoring the fact that there are two listings for 'Mildura' - the province and the city. When you simply enter 'Mildura', it sends you to the center of the province. When you enter a street address, it takes you to the correct street address. If you enter 'Mildura city', it takes you to locations inside the city.
Not clear why it's Apple's fault that Australia named both the city and the province the same. How is Maps supposed to know which one you want?
Let's be honest, Mildura has a local population of 30,000,
I'd be very surprised if Apple hasn't already received a dozens of complaints about the obvious location problem. I think the true thing to focus on, is why is it taking Apple so long to fix these very obvious problems?
Yes, but it's not as simple as you suggest. The fundamental problem is that the region and the city have the same name. When you type 'Mildura', it assumes you want the region and sends you to the middle of the region. If you type 'Mildura city', it sends you to the city. If you type a street address, it takes you to the street address.
I tried 'Utah' and 'Delaware'. In both cases, the word took me to the middle of the state, NOT the city. Apparently, when given the choice between a city and a state with the same name, Maps chooses the state - which is what it did in Mildura, too. I don't think that's unreasonable behavior.
There is one exception, though: New York. When you simply enter 'New York', it takes you to the city. Presumably, they chose to override the standard 'select the state rather than the city when both have the same name' rule because of the size and population of New York City.
It's not at all clear that it's an error - just confusion caused by the use of a city and a region with the same name.
Can I ask a dumb question that none of you people in 400 posts have failed to question? Why is this discussion about "Google maps vs iOS maps"? The app is iOS 5 Maps vs. iOS 6 Maps. The data for the former is sourced from Google, while the data for the latter was sourced from Tom Tom. Both version of Maps were developed by Apple.
So if its the Apps you don't like, call out Apple. But if the discussion is about inaccurate map data, why isn't this framed as "Google vs Tom Tom data"?
PPS: I think the very ferocity and number of posts makes the point that this was, is and remains a problem for AAPL.....
No, the number of posts here represent a relatively small number of people who are not what you'd call typical Apple consumers - they're mostly techies or Android/Google fans.
Incidentally, it turns out that the problem was caused by a POI problem. Apple was using data provided by the Australian Gazetteer, the official go-to guide for this type of information. Yes, the dataset came from the state of Victoria itself. Which brings me back to my original point: the problem is the data, not the app, and this will not be discovered until it is actually used. If the state of Victoria can't provide correct geographical data then that won't be fixed by 'testing' Map applications inside a bunker.
Can I ask a dumb question that none of you people in 400 posts have failed to question? Why is this discussion about "Google maps vs iOS maps"? The app is iOS 5 Maps vs. iOS 6 Maps. The data for the former is sourced from Google, while the data for the latter was sourced from Tom Tom. Both version of Maps were developed by Apple.
So if its the Apps you don't like, call out Apple. But if the discussion is about inaccurate map data, why isn't this framed as "Google vs Tom Tom data"?
Because calling out Apple makes for a fan fodder .... :-)
No, the number of posts here represent a relatively small number of people who are not what you'd call typical Apple consumers - they're mostly techies or Android/Google fans.
Can I ask a dumb question that none of you people in 400 posts have failed to question? Why is this discussion about "Google maps vs iOS maps"? The app is iOS 5 Maps vs. iOS 6 Maps. The data for the former is sourced from Google, while the data for the latter was sourced from Tom Tom. Both version of Maps were developed by Apple.
So if its the Apps you don't like, call out Apple. But if the discussion is about inaccurate map data, why isn't this framed as "Google vs Tom Tom data"?
Didn't TomTom claim their data was fine; it was the way Apple was using it that was producing bad results? Even if TomTom is the problem then we have to ask, why would Apple use their data if it was that bad?
But I still would like to know why Apple feels it needs to be in the mapping business. It's not something you can do quickly or on the cheap. Are the only options Google maps or Apple doing their own solution?
Didn't TomTom claim their data was fine; it was the way Apple was using it that was producing bad results? Even if TomTom is the problem then we have to ask, why would Apple use their data if it was that bad?
But I still would like to know why Apple feels it needs to be in the mapping business. It's not something you can do quickly or on the cheap. Are the only options Google maps or Apple doing their own solution?
Apple doesn't have to tell you why. They made a decision based on what they know and their resources and circumstances. Unless you know more about running a computer company than Apple, you're not in a position to judge.
Apple doesn't have to tell you why. They made a decision based on what they know and their resources and circumstances. Unless you know more about running a computer company than Apple, you're not in a position to judge.
i can have an opinion though and that is I don't think Apple needs to be in the mapping business. Stick to the things they do really well. But if Cook and Co. think it's absolutely necessary for them to have their own mapping solution then spend whatever you have to so you can get it right. I read somewhere that Nokia has spent something like $8B to build out a maps product. Is Apple willing to spend whatever it takes to get this right and be a real competitor to established services out there like Google Maps?
i can have an opinion though and that is I don't think Apple needs to be in the mapping business. Stick to the things they do really well. But if Cook and Co. think it's absolutely necessary for them to have their own mapping solution then spend whatever you have to so you can get it right. I read somewhere that Nokia has spent something like $8B to build out a maps product. Is Apple willing to spend whatever it takes to get this right and be a real competitor to established services out there like Google Maps?
And why in the world would anyone care what your opinion is? What basis is there for thinking that your opinion is of any value?
Apple's management team (including Jobs who was involved when they started into mapping) has shown themselves to be one of the most talented, successful corporate management teams EVER. They made a decision to enter mapping based on what they knew.
Now, you don't have the facts. You don't have their experience. You don't know their constraints. You don't know their talent. And we're supposed to give a hoot what you think?
Can I ask a dumb question that none of you people in 400 posts have failed to question? Why is this discussion about "Google maps vs iOS maps"? The app is iOS 5 Maps vs. iOS 6 Maps. The data for the former is sourced from Google, while the data for the latter was sourced from Tom Tom. Both version of Maps were developed by Apple.
So if its the Apps you don't like, call out Apple. But if the discussion is about inaccurate map data, why isn't this framed as "Google vs Tom Tom data"?
That is not a stupid question, obviously. Unfortunately many discussions also revolve around the Android/iPhone market share, whilst that should be either Android vs iOS or some phone manufacturer vs iPhone.
And why in the world would anyone care what your opinion is? What basis is there for thinking that your opinion is of any value?
Apple's management team (including Jobs who was involved when they started into mapping) has shown themselves to be one of the most talented, successful corporate management teams EVER. They made a decision to enter mapping based on what they knew.
Now, you don't have the facts. You don't have their experience. You don't know their constraints. You don't know their talent. And we're supposed to give a hoot what you think?
Look I could care less if YOU give a "hoot" what I think. But I can be fairly certain I'm not the only one asking this question. I don't care how brilliant Apple's management team is. No company or executive is Infallible. Case in point the two Apple executives recently fired. One who was hired by Cook and fired after being on the job for less an a year. Even the great Apple can make mistakes. Maybe maps will turn out to be one of the most brilliant decisions Jobs & Co. made. But there's nothing wrong with wondering why they did it. Just like everyone who has an opinion on whether Apple should sell a TV set or a set top box. None of use are privy to those discussions either.
Comments
You all people should get a life an stop talking about the same stuff all the time. Don't you have better things to do? Is it really worth having 11 pages to say nothing? This thread is pointless.
Thanks for that post; easiest way to enlarge my blocklist with the thumbs-up you got with this post.
It's seems a fairly basic programming error: if your source maps contain both city names and government jurisdictional boundaries, you must differentiate between them when loading them to the database.
1. We're heading into holiday season here. This is not a week over Christmas. It's our July holiday period.
2. Maybe the authorities were waiting for more than a single incident. don't want to be crying wolf, now.
3. National parks here don't have picket fences around them and it's typical for them to have thoroughfares.
4. Although Australia is a big place you can drive across Victoria in the better part of a day. You're not going to carry around a gallon of water and weeks supply of twinkies for a day trip.
5. I think you're wearing a tin foil hat on this one.
It's shitty data. That's all there is to say about it. Oh, and that Apple is using that shitty data. And we can whine about it because this native app replaced the other native app which for me was perfectly serviceable. I haven't used maps in months, not since I spent an hour driving around in circles in the nations capital because there was no mapping data for an outlying suburb. Oh that, and all the business names in the city centre are a jumble of misplaced pins, not to mention the Starbucks, which while accurately placed, had shut years ago.
This looked a lot like a sudden influx of trolls, but having paged through the subsequent 10 pages I notice that it's mostly the regular suspects
Trolls and shills come out to play
The Moon is shining as bright as Day
Leave your supper and leave your sleep
And come join your play fellows chasing the sheep
Come with a whoop and come with a call
And come with a cudgel or not at all...
(Girls and Boys Come Out to Play, Trad.)
I didn't do the whole thing as that's all that I can remember, although the Wikipedia has the whole thing.
I've noticed that there has been a lot of holier-then-thou tub-thumping when it comes to criticising Maps especially (the Apple Discussion Forums are a case in point) - I can't avoid the criticism having done quite a bit of that myself, but I am very slowly learning not do do such things. Righteous indignation is all very well, but one should ponder about one's own behaviour before hefting a half-brick.
Don't worry, I'll crawl back under my rock soon enough
I made a point in another thread the other day that the original Apple web-page for iOS6 said that the Maps app "might just be the most beautiful, powerful maps app ever" - it didn't say that it was (even it it might have rather unfortunately suggested that it was). A bit of humility or honesty on Apple's part at the time of Scott Forstall's demonstration or at the release might have made things a lot smoother.
I don't really have much more to say that is constructive, but I will add that Apple's maps for some strange reason seems to be almost perfectly accurate in the neck o' the woods of Sydney that I infest.
Let's be honest, Mildura has a local population of 30,000,
I'd be very surprised if Apple hasn't already received a dozens of complaints about the obvious location problem. I think the true thing to focus on, is why is it taking Apple so long to fix these very obvious problems?
I reported my towns lack of location marker - this was when iOS was released... And still it hasn't been fixed... Also, many regional towns around me, don't exist by looking at the map... What's up with that?
You took a complex issue and reduced it to two options. You specifically stated that someone had to choose from those two options and then used Occam's razor to select one of the options. Logically, that's invalid when there are three or more options actually available.
Yes, you COULD HAVE presented a third or fourth option (in which case it would not have been a false dichotomy argument), but you didn't. So don't pretend that the fact that you had other options makes this any less of a false dichotomy.
Only if you've redefined troll as someone who consistently and regularly points out all the flaws in your logic.
So any device that's imperfect is a failure. Got it.
Besides, you're completely ignoring the fact that there are two listings for 'Mildura' - the province and the city. When you simply enter 'Mildura', it sends you to the center of the province. When you enter a street address, it takes you to the correct street address. If you enter 'Mildura city', it takes you to locations inside the city.
Not clear why it's Apple's fault that Australia named both the city and the province the same. How is Maps supposed to know which one you want?
Yes, but it's not as simple as you suggest. The fundamental problem is that the region and the city have the same name. When you type 'Mildura', it assumes you want the region and sends you to the middle of the region. If you type 'Mildura city', it sends you to the city. If you type a street address, it takes you to the street address.
For something familiar to Americans, look up cities which have their state names:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_states_have_a_city_with_the_same_name
I tried 'Utah' and 'Delaware'. In both cases, the word took me to the middle of the state, NOT the city. Apparently, when given the choice between a city and a state with the same name, Maps chooses the state - which is what it did in Mildura, too. I don't think that's unreasonable behavior.
There is one exception, though: New York. When you simply enter 'New York', it takes you to the city. Presumably, they chose to override the standard 'select the state rather than the city when both have the same name' rule because of the size and population of New York City.
It's not at all clear that it's an error - just confusion caused by the use of a city and a region with the same name.
So if its the Apps you don't like, call out Apple. But if the discussion is about inaccurate map data, why isn't this framed as "Google vs Tom Tom data"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigpics
PPS: I think the very ferocity and number of posts makes the point that this was, is and remains a problem for AAPL.....
No, the number of posts here represent a relatively small number of people who are not what you'd call typical Apple consumers - they're mostly techies or Android/Google fans.
Incidentally, it turns out that the problem was caused by a POI problem. Apple was using data provided by the Australian Gazetteer, the official go-to guide for this type of information. Yes, the dataset came from the state of Victoria itself. Which brings me back to my original point: the problem is the data, not the app, and this will not be discovered until it is actually used. If the state of Victoria can't provide correct geographical data then that won't be fixed by 'testing' Map applications inside a bunker.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12/10/apple_maps_ghost_mildura/
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton
Can I ask a dumb question that none of you people in 400 posts have failed to question? Why is this discussion about "Google maps vs iOS maps"? The app is iOS 5 Maps vs. iOS 6 Maps. The data for the former is sourced from Google, while the data for the latter was sourced from Tom Tom. Both version of Maps were developed by Apple.
So if its the Apps you don't like, call out Apple. But if the discussion is about inaccurate map data, why isn't this framed as "Google vs Tom Tom data"?
Because calling out Apple makes for a fan fodder .... :-)
And paid shills.
But I still would like to know why Apple feels it needs to be in the mapping business. It's not something you can do quickly or on the cheap. Are the only options Google maps or Apple doing their own solution?
Apple doesn't have to tell you why. They made a decision based on what they know and their resources and circumstances. Unless you know more about running a computer company than Apple, you're not in a position to judge.
And why in the world would anyone care what your opinion is? What basis is there for thinking that your opinion is of any value?
Apple's management team (including Jobs who was involved when they started into mapping) has shown themselves to be one of the most talented, successful corporate management teams EVER. They made a decision to enter mapping based on what they knew.
Now, you don't have the facts. You don't have their experience. You don't know their constraints. You don't know their talent. And we're supposed to give a hoot what you think?
That is not a stupid question, obviously. Unfortunately many discussions also revolve around the Android/iPhone market share, whilst that should be either Android vs iOS or some phone manufacturer vs iPhone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
And why in the world would anyone care what your opinion is?
Huh?
For the same reason anyone would care what your opinion is...
or mine...
or any other forum member's.
EDIT;
Coming from a "businessman" I'd figure you already knew why you should care. You've never asked a customer for his opinion of your product?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy
Huh?
For the same reason anyone would care what your opinion is...
or mine...
or any other forum member's.
Clearly if your opinion doesn't match his, you:
A. Shouldn't have one
B. No one should care what it is
/s