I thing I wish Apple has done differently with Thunderbolt is the connector. It is too loose, if you move your laptop 1 or 2 inches, the mere weight of a cable is enough to pull it out.
It should have had a clip to hold it in, or if that is not minimalist enough, they could at least have made it tight.
Glad to see more TB products out there, but how about a TB external GPU—or slot in which to install one? Whatever card the drivers can handle! (Meaning, I suppose, whatever OS X expects a Mac Pro to handle.)
I can’t give up Air portability, but TB has held out the promise of greater GPU power when I’m at home at my desk. All promise... no reality, so far. A GPU made for Mac Pro would be FAR better than you’d expect an ultrathin laptop to be able to offer. Come on, TB, let me have my cake and eat it too! Plus then I could choose to keep the same (home-base-only) GPU when getting a new Air.
I found a nice reference for you. It's basically what I've been telling people. There are some individuals who get these things working on a case by case basis, but standard parts won't meet intel's certification due to drivers or possibly firmware. If we see eGPU support, I expect it to be driven by something like Windows gaming as a likely scenario. I'd also expect that if these companies do certify gpu cards for thunderbolt use, they'll make them in the form of breakout boxes. I don't expect to see anything like this until bandwidth increases to something closer to a normal card allocation. The minimum would be something like 8 lanes, as that is what is typically allocated on mobile cards. This is just speculation, but it should help explain why it wont happen today.
No, the NVIDIA Quadro 4000 is not Thunderbolt-compatible. Apple and Intel have prescribed specific connectivity standards for products with Thunderbolt technology interfaces. These include drivers that are recognized by Thunderbolt and allow the product to connect and disconnect while the computer is running (hot plug/unplug). Products with Thunderbolt interfaces are tested by Intel and Apple and certified as compatible with these standards.
For PCIe expansion chassis to function correctly in this Thunderbolt-connectivity paradigm, the drivers for PCIe cards used in the chassis must also be updated to support these requirements. In most cases, each card manufacturer is responsible for updating the drivers for their cards. For the Quadro, it is Apple that controls the driver in OS X.
Intel has required all PCIe chassis manufacturers to agree to list only compatible cards that have been tested to support these standards. Apple has determined that for now, there are several technical reasons why it is not a good idea for a GPU card--including the Quadro--to connect over Thunderbolt. Therefore, GPU cards do not have Thunderbolt-compatible drivers. Until Thunderbolt-compatible drivers are released for GPU cards, they will not work over Thunderbolt.
Amazing. Now Mac users can buy a special box that adds the ports that Apple took away because thinner.
Maybe Apple could remove everything from the MacBook except for the CPU and RAM (thinner!), and then sell a special box that adds back all the stuff they removed.
I kind of have the same question there. Why does a 5-slot PCI chassis plus all the other parts of a computer cost $350, but a 3-slot PCI chassis by itself costs $1000?
To me it just seems more like this Magma stuff is morbidly overpriced than anything else.
It's a small price to pay for thinner.
Imagine if Apple put three PCIe slots in the iMac - it would be monstrously thick! But now you get a beautiful thin iMac, and all you need is a $1K box sitting next to it with a few cables to get PCIe slots.
Hell, I remember a time you could buy a $1500 Mac with all the slots inside it (ugly and THICK), and then you had to use a seperate monitor (thicker!). Look how far we've progressed - for only $3000 you can own a thinner iMac with a neato box that sits next to it. Because we always hated having those PCIe slots INSIDE the computer!
I only buy games from Steam and then only in Windows. So for me, Windows GPU/Thunderbolt drivers would suffice. Would those be easier to obtain than Mac OS X GPU/Thunderbolt drivers, you think?
I only buy games from Steam and then only in Windows. So for me, Windows GPU/Thunderbolt drivers would suffice. Would those be easier to obtain than Mac OS X GPU/Thunderbolt drivers, you think?
You'd think no, given that no PCs have Thunderbolt, but the only working external Thunderbolt graphics cards can only be used in Windows (Boot Camp) right now.
I only buy games from Steam and then only in Windows. So for me, Windows GPU/Thunderbolt drivers would suffice. Would those be easier to obtain than Mac OS X GPU/Thunderbolt drivers, you think?
I think you might be better off with a dedicated gaming PC. Thunderbolt can give you a max of about two PCIe lanes per device, and by many reports, a PCIe cage is going to be expensive too.
The only wrench in that hypothesis is Apple's history of letting their display languish. Still, with the thinning of the iMacs and need to get USB 3.0 in them I can't imagine that they'd ignore it for too long. Plus, back when they had the 27" ACD I think the 24" iMac was the largest size.
The only wrench in that hypothesis is Apple's history of letting their display languish. Still, with the thinning of the iMacs and need to get USB 3.0 in them I can't imagine that they'd ignore it for too long. Plus, back when they had the 27" ACD I think the 24" iMac was the largest size.
I think it stands to reason they need to keep it reasonably aligned with the iMac designs once they made their designs similar as they have. It looks silly to have a thick display next to a computer with built in display that's even thinner. If there's a Mac Pro update, then a new TB display can really make it stand out. A Mac Pro + two or three TB displays and you have pixels and I/O out the wazoo.
I'm not very optimistic that Thunderbolt will be around in a couple years - there are very few TB devices out there as it is, and the Pro Audio and Video industries have both basically chosen USB3 as the future for pros and semipros.
Really? Is that why Aja, BlackMagic, Motu, etc are releasing thunderbolt pro video products?
Or Avid releasing Pro Tools with a thunderbolt adapter? Universal Audio now has a TB daughtercard for the Apollo and Apogee has a TB bridge for their Symphony line.
"Nevertheless, if you're looking at the difference between integrated graphics in an Ultrabook or a slightly-degraded GeForce GTX 460 on the same machine, the minor performance loss is pretty inconsequential."
Going over a x4 lane TB link with a mid-grade GPU works fine...if we only had the drivers for it.
A TB dock with a GPU, ethernet, FW, USB3 out would sell if it were $400 IF Apple supported it in OSX. But they don't so all the eGPU products (GUS II, etc) have been limbo waiting for more TB based ultrabooks.
If Apple released a 27" TB display with a built in 650M that would actually make the display worth $999 for a lot more MBA buyers.
The part that will sadly never come out is a thunderbolt PCI card that fits in commodity Intel motherboards (like the one collecting dust in your closet) and puts the machine in "target disk/ethernet/usb/sound/video mode" by taking over the boot process like a PXE boot chip does.
Imagine, that boat anchor with a Q6600 in it could fire up those four drives of yesteryear as an external direct-attach RAID, but for the price of a single PCI board.
Comments
It should have had a clip to hold it in, or if that is not minimalist enough, they could at least have made it tight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nagromme
Glad to see more TB products out there, but how about a TB external GPU—or slot in which to install one? Whatever card the drivers can handle! (Meaning, I suppose, whatever OS X expects a Mac Pro to handle.)
I can’t give up Air portability, but TB has held out the promise of greater GPU power when I’m at home at my desk. All promise... no reality, so far. A GPU made for Mac Pro would be FAR better than you’d expect an ultrathin laptop to be able to offer. Come on, TB, let me have my cake and eat it too! Plus then I could choose to keep the same (home-base-only) GPU when getting a new Air.
I found a nice reference for you. It's basically what I've been telling people. There are some individuals who get these things working on a case by case basis, but standard parts won't meet intel's certification due to drivers or possibly firmware. If we see eGPU support, I expect it to be driven by something like Windows gaming as a likely scenario. I'd also expect that if these companies do certify gpu cards for thunderbolt use, they'll make them in the form of breakout boxes. I don't expect to see anything like this until bandwidth increases to something closer to a normal card allocation. The minimum would be something like 8 lanes, as that is what is typically allocated on mobile cards. This is just speculation, but it should help explain why it wont happen today.
http://www.sonnettech.com/support/kb/kb.php?cat=451&expand=_a1_b664_a2&action=b663
Quote:
No, the NVIDIA Quadro 4000 is not Thunderbolt-compatible. Apple and Intel have prescribed specific connectivity standards for products with Thunderbolt technology interfaces. These include drivers that are recognized by Thunderbolt and allow the product to connect and disconnect while the computer is running (hot plug/unplug). Products with Thunderbolt interfaces are tested by Intel and Apple and certified as compatible with these standards.
For PCIe expansion chassis to function correctly in this Thunderbolt-connectivity paradigm, the drivers for PCIe cards used in the chassis must also be updated to support these requirements. In most cases, each card manufacturer is responsible for updating the drivers for their cards. For the Quadro, it is Apple that controls the driver in OS X.
Intel has required all PCIe chassis manufacturers to agree to list only compatible cards that have been tested to support these standards. Apple has determined that for now, there are several technical reasons why it is not a good idea for a GPU card--including the Quadro--to connect over Thunderbolt. Therefore, GPU cards do not have Thunderbolt-compatible drivers. Until Thunderbolt-compatible drivers are released for GPU cards, they will not work over Thunderbolt.
Amazing. Now Mac users can buy a special box that adds the ports that Apple took away because thinner.
Maybe Apple could remove everything from the MacBook except for the CPU and RAM (thinner!), and then sell a special box that adds back all the stuff they removed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Durandal1707
I kind of have the same question there. Why does a 5-slot PCI chassis plus all the other parts of a computer cost $350, but a 3-slot PCI chassis by itself costs $1000?
To me it just seems more like this Magma stuff is morbidly overpriced than anything else.
It's a small price to pay for thinner.
Imagine if Apple put three PCIe slots in the iMac - it would be monstrously thick! But now you get a beautiful thin iMac, and all you need is a $1K box sitting next to it with a few cables to get PCIe slots.
Hell, I remember a time you could buy a $1500 Mac with all the slots inside it (ugly and THICK), and then you had to use a seperate monitor (thicker!). Look how far we've progressed - for only $3000 you can own a thinner iMac with a neato box that sits next to it. Because we always hated having those PCIe slots INSIDE the computer!
You don't have any idea what a docking station is or is meant to do, do you?
It's OK to ask if you don't know.
Originally Posted by Bengt77
I only buy games from Steam and then only in Windows. So for me, Windows GPU/Thunderbolt drivers would suffice. Would those be easier to obtain than Mac OS X GPU/Thunderbolt drivers, you think?
You'd think no, given that no PCs have Thunderbolt, but the only working external Thunderbolt graphics cards can only be used in Windows (Boot Camp) right now.
I think you might be better off with a dedicated gaming PC. Thunderbolt can give you a max of about two PCIe lanes per device, and by many reports, a PCIe cage is going to be expensive too.
I think it's a viable option. Some of us mentioned it early in the thread. I'm holding out for an update to USB 3.
I would wager it will updated alongside the next Mac Pro and will follow the new iMac's tapered look.
Sounds about right to me.
The only wrench in that hypothesis is Apple's history of letting their display languish. Still, with the thinning of the iMacs and need to get USB 3.0 in them I can't imagine that they'd ignore it for too long. Plus, back when they had the 27" ACD I think the 24" iMac was the largest size.
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
The only wrench in that hypothesis is Apple's history of letting their display languish.
I think that's in the past. The speed of the Thunderbolt update and the 27" update before it sort of tell me they'll be moving faster.
I think it stands to reason they need to keep it reasonably aligned with the iMac designs once they made their designs similar as they have. It looks silly to have a thick display next to a computer with built in display that's even thinner. If there's a Mac Pro update, then a new TB display can really make it stand out. A Mac Pro + two or three TB displays and you have pixels and I/O out the wazoo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superbass
I'm not very optimistic that Thunderbolt will be around in a couple years - there are very few TB devices out there as it is, and the Pro Audio and Video industries have both basically chosen USB3 as the future for pros and semipros.
Really? Is that why Aja, BlackMagic, Motu, etc are releasing thunderbolt pro video products?
Or Avid releasing Pro Tools with a thunderbolt adapter? Universal Audio now has a TB daughtercard for the Apollo and Apogee has a TB bridge for their Symphony line.
"Nevertheless, if you're looking at the difference between integrated graphics in an Ultrabook or a slightly-degraded GeForce GTX 460 on the same machine, the minor performance loss is pretty inconsequential."
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/pci-express-graphics-thunderbolt,3263-7.html
Going over a x4 lane TB link with a mid-grade GPU works fine...if we only had the drivers for it.
A TB dock with a GPU, ethernet, FW, USB3 out would sell if it were $400 IF Apple supported it in OSX. But they don't so all the eGPU products (GUS II, etc) have been limbo waiting for more TB based ultrabooks.
If Apple released a 27" TB display with a built in 650M that would actually make the display worth $999 for a lot more MBA buyers.
Possible, but I think they'll increase the price with the added component, don't you think? I can see this happening for a TV set: 3 components:
screen with video card
a box with the CPU, connectors, I/O
speaker set
Although I doubt Apple will create a TV set. It could come alive, but at least not as we know it.
Imagine, that boat anchor with a Q6600 in it could fire up those four drives of yesteryear as an external direct-attach RAID, but for the price of a single PCI board.
Yah, that would be too cool.