From that logic then, all the issues in the past 18 months can also be blamed on Steve Jobs.
The logic does not apply because you are ignoring cause and effect. Had Jobs been there, he would have most likely not green lit the production of the new iMac, or many other things that are currently causing problems due to not being ready. Even though he set those things in motion, the responsibility of bringing them into production wasn't his. Furthermore, Apple has been losing value since September, and before then wasn't progressing much since April, either, two points that coincided with the release of the new MacBook Pros and the iPhone 5. This is not to mention that Cook hasn't even been CEO for 18 months.
I would be laughing if cook went up to keynote stating that..., "thank you...we sold 300,000 units since last year. I'm so proud of that..." (clap clap)
The logic does not apply because you are ignoring cause and effect. Had Jobs been there, he would have most likely not green lit the production of the new iMac, or many other things that are currently causing problems due to not being ready. Even though he set those things in motion, the responsibility of bringing them into production wasn't his. Furthermore, Apple has been losing value since September, and before then wasn't progressing much since April, either, two points that coincided with the release of the new MacBook Pros and the iPhone 5. This is not to mention that Cook hasn't even been CEO for 18 months.
This is complete BS. You have no idea what Jobs would have done and as shown many times over there is plenty of evidence during Jobs time of delays, missteps, and no product on the market.
This is complete BS. You have no idea what Jobs would have done and as shown many times over there is plenty of presence during Jobs time of delays, missteps, and no product on the market.
Steve definitely seemed to have a teflon coating over him in comparison.
This is complete BS. You have no idea what Jobs would have done and as shown many times over there is plenty of evidence during Jobs time of delays, missteps, and no product on the market.
While you are right in stating that I have no clue of what Jobs would have done, that's not what I said either, so you aren't refuting me. Notice my use of expressions such as "most likely"? They don't mean certainty, but my post serves the purpose of refuting the post that I was replying to. Jobs failing now and then does not disprove the notion that he was right most of the time.
Steve definitely seemed to have a teflon coating over him in comparison.
Seems like that to people like you, because people like you would not dare to second guess how he was doing his job.
Tim Cook will have to gain your respect over time, because you have to be shown. You can't reason your way into giving him that respect, because you can't imagine the nature of his job.
It's interesting that you're accusing him of an operations failure, when he has been in charge of operations for several years, while Steve was CEO. Do you imagine that Steve would have been overseeing the screen lamination or the case welding and getting it underway faster? Do you think the iPhone 5 assembly would have been made less difficult under Steve's brilliant operational prowess? That he would have seen to it that 50 million were sold instead of 48.7 million in three months?
Well, if it is your third possibility then Steve didn't pick the right guy because Steve didn't seem to have quite so many problems.
See the point that Apple is more complex now just sailed right over your head. Or you're just being dishonest, or stonewalling. And ignoring the fact that it was Tim Cook who was running operations while Steve was CEO. This could be why "Steve didn't seem to have quite so many problems."
You don't know enough about how the ship is run to call for a mutiny.
Do you want me to mention how much Sculley grew Apple after Steve left. It's not relevant to anything being talked about, just like your comment.
By the way... I'll give Cook calendar Q1 2012 but I sure as hell will not say he was on his own for calendar q4 2011. So where did you get that 70% from...
Well, as I said... I'm not giving him credit for "growing" the company 70%. If you want to say that Jobs had nothing to do with fiscal quarters Q3 and Q4 in 2011 then that's up to you. I certainly will not. As a matter of act I'm not sure how much credit I give him with "growing" the company when the company is now at a virtual standstill yoy in the last quarter.
As I said... I'm waiting until 2013 is over before I pass judgement.
See the point that Apple is more complex now just sailed right over your head. Or you're just being dishonest, or stonewalling. And ignoring the fact that it was Tim Cook who was running operations while Steve was CEO. This could be why "Steve didn't seem to have quite so many problems."
You don't know enough about how the ship is run to call for a mutiny.
No... you are the one who had my comment with the two possibilities sail right over your head. What the hell do you thinking "getting one's legs" means in my second possibility?
... and your third sentence above shows that you missed my first possibility altogether.
So it's very very obvious you are unable to read and/or comprehend what I said being that I laid it out so simply in point form.
Seems like that to people like you, because people like you would not dare to second guess how he was doing his job.
Tim Cook will have to gain your respect over time, because you have to be shown. You can't reason your way into giving him that respect, because you can't imagine the nature of his job.
It's interesting that you're accusing him of an operations failure, when he has been in charge of operations for several years, while Steve was CEO. Do you imagine that Steve would have been overseeing the screen lamination or the case welding and getting it underway faster? Do you think the iPhone 5 assembly would have been made less difficult under Steve's brilliant operational prowess? That he would have seen to it that 50 million were sold instead of 48.7 million in three months?
You are now blocked because you are just making up too much stuff and you have absolutely no comprehension level whatsoever. read Anan's comment above and go from there. Maybe something will click... but I doubt it.
Well, as I said... I'm not giving him credit for "growing" the company 70%. If you want to say that Jobs had nothing to do with fiscal quarters Q3 and Q4 in 2011 then that's up to you. I certainly will not. As a matter of act I'm not sure how much credit I give him with "growing" the company when the company is now at a virtual standstill yoy in the last quarter.
As I said... I'm waiting until 2013 is over before I pass judgement.
Virtual standstill?
Net income up 8% on a per-week basis last quarter.
Cash flow up 33% last quarter.
Record sales.
Meanwhile, NONE of their competitors are doing anywhere near as well. Samsung had almost the same revenues - but 1/3 the net income. AMZN? I'm still laughing at the fools who think it's worth 3500 times earnings.
Net income up 8% on a per-week basis last quarter.
Cash flow up 33% last quarter.
Record sales.
Meanwhile, NONE of their competitors are doing anywhere near as well. Samsung had almost the same revenues - but 1/3 the net income. AMZN? I'm still laughing at the fools who think it's worth 3500 times earnings.
Yes, virtual standstill... and comparing one company to other companies is not relevant. If we did that then we could say that if Apple lost 15% and another company lost 25% then Apple must be doing really well.
As I said, I want to see 2013 play out before passing any judgement.
Funny... the original discussion that I was having was a comment I made to Anan, wondering if Tim Cook and Steve Jobs made an inseparable duo and now that Steve is gone maybe Tim doesn't have the right wing man [or he was better when he solely concentrated on operations]... or that possibly Tim is just trying to get his legs. Never once did I talk about failure on Tim's behalf or that he was doing an absolutely terrible job... just that there have been some undeniable issues. One can blame these issues on others if they want, or say they really don't exist but to me it's plain to see that the road has been bumpy. I feel that we haven't had enough time to really see if Tim Cook is the right man for the job. Remember, as I mentioned, Sculley grew the company tremendously after Steve left in 84. Not that I am comparing Cook to Sculley at every level but instead I'm just saying that company growth doesn't paint the whole picture of a CEO's potential.
Yes, virtual standstill... and comparing one company to other companies is not relevant. If we did that then we could say that if Apple lost 15% and another company lost 25% then Apple must be doing really well.
Again, record sales, 8% increase in net (which most companies would kill for), 33% increase in cash flow is NOT a virtual standstill by ANY rational standard.
And, yes, one of the ways to evaluate a company's performance is by comparing it to peer companies. If the entire market drops 50% and a given stock only drops 2%, wouldn't you say that's a good sign? Relative to the rest of their market, they've done very well.
As I said, I want to see 2013 play out before passing any judgement.
So? Your statement about Apple being at a virtual standstill was flat out wrong - even if you want to wait a few months before making any decisions based on your erroneous statement.
So? Your statement about Apple being at a virtual standstill was flat out wrong - even if you want to wait a few months before making any decisions based on your erroneous statement.
Erroneous to you. Not to me.
Not to offend but your statement holds no water with me. I can see the sentiment on AAPL [... and I can read what other good financial minds are saying]. I'll use that as my guide before I listen to some dude on a forum.
No... you are the one who had my comment with the two possibilities sail right over your head. What the hell do you thinking "getting one's legs" means in my second possibility?
... and your third sentence above shows that you missed my first possibility altogether.
So it's very very obvious you are unable to read and/or comprehend what I said being that I laid it out so simply in point form.
I did comprehend your first two possibilities, rejected them as absurdly pre-judgmental of Cook's competence, and offered a third possibility that would explain the logistics difficulties that you are siezing on for your test of Cook's 2013 report card.
You said Cook is either screwing up or still having to "get his legs," both of which are laughable in their superciliousness: as if the all-knowing but hermetic critic knows what's going on day to day in the machine that Cook is building, which is of unprecedented complexity and scope in consumer technology history. (Samsung is also large and complex, but they can control much more of their technology and their parts sourcing themselves, thus maybe simpler than Apple when it comes to global logistics.)
"Getting his legs" is a cheap way of calling his competence into question, when he's already been running the company for years. You said elsewhere he needs his own PR person. Actually he needs fewer know-nothing critics wringing their hands and stamping their penny loafers over his performance.
I'd love to see Apple do something in the car audio space. Last year I had an after market deck installed in my car and the guys at Best Buy said its huge business and they're installing them all the time. The UI on those things is absolutely horrid. I'd love to see Apple so something in this space. I think home entertainment and car audio would be good places for Apple to expand in to.
+ 1. I'm a delivery guy in a mid-sized Canadian city and two things I can say about that:
1. Apple Maps with turn by turn is simply fantastic. No significant errors to report and much safer/easier to manage and read than the previous version. The new Google app is quite good too but from my view, Mapgate was wildly overblown
2. I've had two Ford cars in a row. Their MS-based Sync software is absolute garbage. When getting in and out of my car, I can either leave it running or go through a 6-8 step process of weird menus to get my Bluetooth, phone and entertainment connected with the car again. Absolute, un-intuitive trash
Yes, virtual standstill... and comparing one company to other companies is not relevant. If we did that then we could say that if Apple lost 15% and another company lost 25% then Apple must be doing really well.
As I said, I want to see 2013 play out before passing any judgement.
Funny... the original discussion that I was having was a comment I made to Anan, wondering if Tim Cook and Steve Jobs made an inseparable duo and now that Steve is gone maybe Tim doesn't have the right wing man [or he was better when he solely concentrated on operations]... or that possibly Tim is just trying to get his legs. Never once did I talk about failure on Tim's behalf or that he was doing an absolutely terrible job... just that there have been some undeniable issues. One can blame these issues on others if they want, or say they really don't exist but to me it's plain to see that the road has been bumpy. I feel that we haven't had enough time to really see if Tim Cook is the right man for the job. Remember, as I mentioned, Sculley grew the company tremendously after Steve left in 84. Not that I am comparing Cook to Sculley at every level but instead I'm just saying that company growth doesn't paint the whole picture of a CEO's potential.
Notice how Anan's original worrying comment provoked you and a few other handwringers into an inquisition into Cook's competence, the wisdom of changing the iMac's spatial footprint, the schizophrenic slobbering over the timing of halting/delaying/late-introducing of the iMac line, and in general becoming part of the problem rather than the solution to Apple's public perception of competence. Anan is out of line too.
You guys have no idea of what's going on with the iMac manufacturing shortages or delays. You would better spend your energy on doing or encouraging research into how those screens are put together and why they're difficult, if that's the case. You don't even know where they're coming from yet you feel you are knowledgeable enough to pronounce on Cook's performance. It's the gossip of know-nothings, what you are doing. To the extent that Apple's decline in valuation is driven by media pathology, you guys are doing your part.
+ 1. I'm a delivery guy in a mid-sized Canadian city and two things I can say about that:
1. Apple Maps with turn by turn is simply fantastic. No significant errors to report and much safer/easier to manage and read than the previous version. The new Google app is quite good too but from my view, Mapgate was wildly overblown
2. I've had two Ford cars in a row. Their MS-based Sync software is absolute garbage. When getting in and out of my car, I can either leave it running or go through a 6-8 step process of weird menus to get my Bluetooth, phone and entertainment connected with the car again. Absolute, un-intuitive trash
Thanks for the report from the real world. Refreshing in this dismal thread.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven N.
You do know how to read financial reports?
Obviously you do not.
The logic does not apply because you are ignoring cause and effect. Had Jobs been there, he would have most likely not green lit the production of the new iMac, or many other things that are currently causing problems due to not being ready. Even though he set those things in motion, the responsibility of bringing them into production wasn't his. Furthermore, Apple has been losing value since September, and before then wasn't progressing much since April, either, two points that coincided with the release of the new MacBook Pros and the iPhone 5. This is not to mention that Cook hasn't even been CEO for 18 months.
I would be laughing if cook went up to keynote stating that..., "thank you...we sold 300,000 units since last year. I'm so proud of that..." (clap clap)
This is complete BS. You have no idea what Jobs would have done and as shown many times over there is plenty of evidence during Jobs time of delays, missteps, and no product on the market.
edit: auto-correct typo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
This is complete BS. You have no idea what Jobs would have done and as shown many times over there is plenty of presence during Jobs time of delays, missteps, and no product on the market.
Steve definitely seemed to have a teflon coating over him in comparison.
While you are right in stating that I have no clue of what Jobs would have done, that's not what I said either, so you aren't refuting me. Notice my use of expressions such as "most likely"? They don't mean certainty, but my post serves the purpose of refuting the post that I was replying to. Jobs failing now and then does not disprove the notion that he was right most of the time.
Seems like that to people like you, because people like you would not dare to second guess how he was doing his job.
Tim Cook will have to gain your respect over time, because you have to be shown. You can't reason your way into giving him that respect, because you can't imagine the nature of his job.
It's interesting that you're accusing him of an operations failure, when he has been in charge of operations for several years, while Steve was CEO. Do you imagine that Steve would have been overseeing the screen lamination or the case welding and getting it underway faster? Do you think the iPhone 5 assembly would have been made less difficult under Steve's brilliant operational prowess? That he would have seen to it that 50 million were sold instead of 48.7 million in three months?
See the point that Apple is more complex now just sailed right over your head. Or you're just being dishonest, or stonewalling. And ignoring the fact that it was Tim Cook who was running operations while Steve was CEO. This could be why "Steve didn't seem to have quite so many problems."
You don't know enough about how the ship is run to call for a mutiny.
http://files.shareholder.com/downloads/AAPL/2286168978x0x444195/E7A8FE5F-8835-46AB-ACC2-6FA28DFB546D/Three_Yr_Financial_History.pdf
FY 2010 net income $14 B
FY 2011 net income $26 B
FY 2012 net income $42 B
Looks like around 70% or more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
http://files.shareholder.com/downloads/AAPL/2286168978x0x444195/E7A8FE5F-8835-46AB-ACC2-6FA28DFB546D/Three_Yr_Financial_History.pdf
FY 2010 net income $14 B
FY 2011 net income $26 B
FY 2012 net income $42 B
Looks like around 70% or more.
Well, as I said... I'm not giving him credit for "growing" the company 70%. If you want to say that Jobs had nothing to do with fiscal quarters Q3 and Q4 in 2011 then that's up to you. I certainly will not. As a matter of act I'm not sure how much credit I give him with "growing" the company when the company is now at a virtual standstill yoy in the last quarter.
As I said... I'm waiting until 2013 is over before I pass judgement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaneur
See the point that Apple is more complex now just sailed right over your head. Or you're just being dishonest, or stonewalling. And ignoring the fact that it was Tim Cook who was running operations while Steve was CEO. This could be why "Steve didn't seem to have quite so many problems."
You don't know enough about how the ship is run to call for a mutiny.
No... you are the one who had my comment with the two possibilities sail right over your head. What the hell do you thinking "getting one's legs" means in my second possibility?
... and your third sentence above shows that you missed my first possibility altogether.
So it's very very obvious you are unable to read and/or comprehend what I said being that I laid it out so simply in point form.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaneur
Seems like that to people like you, because people like you would not dare to second guess how he was doing his job.
Tim Cook will have to gain your respect over time, because you have to be shown. You can't reason your way into giving him that respect, because you can't imagine the nature of his job.
It's interesting that you're accusing him of an operations failure, when he has been in charge of operations for several years, while Steve was CEO. Do you imagine that Steve would have been overseeing the screen lamination or the case welding and getting it underway faster? Do you think the iPhone 5 assembly would have been made less difficult under Steve's brilliant operational prowess? That he would have seen to it that 50 million were sold instead of 48.7 million in three months?
You are now blocked because you are just making up too much stuff and you have absolutely no comprehension level whatsoever. read Anan's comment above and go from there. Maybe something will click... but I doubt it.
Virtual standstill?
Net income up 8% on a per-week basis last quarter.
Cash flow up 33% last quarter.
Record sales.
Meanwhile, NONE of their competitors are doing anywhere near as well. Samsung had almost the same revenues - but 1/3 the net income. AMZN? I'm still laughing at the fools who think it's worth 3500 times earnings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Virtual standstill?
Net income up 8% on a per-week basis last quarter.
Cash flow up 33% last quarter.
Record sales.
Meanwhile, NONE of their competitors are doing anywhere near as well. Samsung had almost the same revenues - but 1/3 the net income. AMZN? I'm still laughing at the fools who think it's worth 3500 times earnings.
Yes, virtual standstill... and comparing one company to other companies is not relevant. If we did that then we could say that if Apple lost 15% and another company lost 25% then Apple must be doing really well.
As I said, I want to see 2013 play out before passing any judgement.
Funny... the original discussion that I was having was a comment I made to Anan, wondering if Tim Cook and Steve Jobs made an inseparable duo and now that Steve is gone maybe Tim doesn't have the right wing man [or he was better when he solely concentrated on operations]... or that possibly Tim is just trying to get his legs. Never once did I talk about failure on Tim's behalf or that he was doing an absolutely terrible job... just that there have been some undeniable issues. One can blame these issues on others if they want, or say they really don't exist but to me it's plain to see that the road has been bumpy. I feel that we haven't had enough time to really see if Tim Cook is the right man for the job. Remember, as I mentioned, Sculley grew the company tremendously after Steve left in 84. Not that I am comparing Cook to Sculley at every level but instead I'm just saying that company growth doesn't paint the whole picture of a CEO's potential.
Again, record sales, 8% increase in net (which most companies would kill for), 33% increase in cash flow is NOT a virtual standstill by ANY rational standard.
And, yes, one of the ways to evaluate a company's performance is by comparing it to peer companies. If the entire market drops 50% and a given stock only drops 2%, wouldn't you say that's a good sign? Relative to the rest of their market, they've done very well.
So? Your statement about Apple being at a virtual standstill was flat out wrong - even if you want to wait a few months before making any decisions based on your erroneous statement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
So? Your statement about Apple being at a virtual standstill was flat out wrong - even if you want to wait a few months before making any decisions based on your erroneous statement.
Erroneous to you. Not to me.
Not to offend but your statement holds no water with me. I can see the sentiment on AAPL [... and I can read what other good financial minds are saying]. I'll use that as my guide before I listen to some dude on a forum.
I did comprehend your first two possibilities, rejected them as absurdly pre-judgmental of Cook's competence, and offered a third possibility that would explain the logistics difficulties that you are siezing on for your test of Cook's 2013 report card.
You said Cook is either screwing up or still having to "get his legs," both of which are laughable in their superciliousness: as if the all-knowing but hermetic critic knows what's going on day to day in the machine that Cook is building, which is of unprecedented complexity and scope in consumer technology history. (Samsung is also large and complex, but they can control much more of their technology and their parts sourcing themselves, thus maybe simpler than Apple when it comes to global logistics.)
"Getting his legs" is a cheap way of calling his competence into question, when he's already been running the company for years. You said elsewhere he needs his own PR person. Actually he needs fewer know-nothing critics wringing their hands and stamping their penny loafers over his performance.
+ 1. I'm a delivery guy in a mid-sized Canadian city and two things I can say about that:
1. Apple Maps with turn by turn is simply fantastic. No significant errors to report and much safer/easier to manage and read than the previous version. The new Google app is quite good too but from my view, Mapgate was wildly overblown
2. I've had two Ford cars in a row. Their MS-based Sync software is absolute garbage. When getting in and out of my car, I can either leave it running or go through a 6-8 step process of weird menus to get my Bluetooth, phone and entertainment connected with the car again. Absolute, un-intuitive trash
Notice how Anan's original worrying comment provoked you and a few other handwringers into an inquisition into Cook's competence, the wisdom of changing the iMac's spatial footprint, the schizophrenic slobbering over the timing of halting/delaying/late-introducing of the iMac line, and in general becoming part of the problem rather than the solution to Apple's public perception of competence. Anan is out of line too.
You guys have no idea of what's going on with the iMac manufacturing shortages or delays. You would better spend your energy on doing or encouraging research into how those screens are put together and why they're difficult, if that's the case. You don't even know where they're coming from yet you feel you are knowledgeable enough to pronounce on Cook's performance. It's the gossip of know-nothings, what you are doing. To the extent that Apple's decline in valuation is driven by media pathology, you guys are doing your part.
Thanks for the report from the real world. Refreshing in this dismal thread.