Microsoft sells out of Surface Pro, just like the Zune HD did in 2009

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  • Reply 141 of 178
    nikon133nikon133 Posts: 2,600member
    hfts wrote: »
    Any body that does not use Office. That is my definition. Is that good enough for ya?

    Yes. It is good enough for me to completely discredit your opinion.

    Have a nice day.
  • Reply 142 of 178
    nikon133nikon133 Posts: 2,600member
    jmgregory1 wrote: »
    MS is simply rehashing a tired old unsuccessful formula with the SP. Sure, it's smaller and lighter than their previous attempts at convertible laptops, but that's about it. They still think you can just use a touch screen device running software that was not designed for touch input. Oh, wait you say? It's not a laptop it's a tablet? Then why is the only real selling point the "fact" that you can run legacy desktop applications on it? Which of course demand the use of legacy input methods, such as a mouse? Pretty handy to have to carry around your keyboard, mouse, external storage device and of course your charger given the measly run time, which will go down when driving a mouse, keyboard and external drive.

    Wait again, you say. It's got a Wacom digitizer, so it will be perfect for photo and design professionals, because working on a 10" ultra high definition screen is such an ideal workspace. Sure. I can't wait to read how design and photo professionals start dumping their workstations as they convert exclusively to SP devices.

    Size matters, and Win 8 is much better for tablets than XP was.

    Don't forget how size made iPad quite different device from iPod Touch.

    Likewise, these are firs x86 tablets that are actually tablets in terms of size and weight. I'm not talking about Surface Pro only, but all new x86 tablets.

    Sometimes a small change can open new usage scenarios.

    I also fail to understand why so many people are trying to ridicule included digitiser. If you are using SP behind the desk, you can plug 27" monitor and use SP as decently sized 11" Wacom digitiser with 1000 levels of pressure (I believe that is the number being mentioned). Device gives you integrated digitiser. I don't think it limits you to use it on integrated screen only.
  • Reply 143 of 178
    nikon133nikon133 Posts: 2,600member
    C|Net is clueless.
    The Surface Pro Device is not a Pad.  It is a compromised NetBook.  

    1.  The base OS uses too much of the flash storage.  (Compromise)

    This was discussed. It uses approximately same space as OSX on MBA. Storage is not critical for most business users we are dealing with - most are actually not alowed to keep data locally, everything is on servers and network storage. In addition, storage will grow with next generations.
    2.  The PC desktop mode requires 150% display magnification to be usable.  (Compromise)

    Isn't it the same issue with 13" Retina MBP, maybe even 15" to a lesser degree?
    3.  So it has the CPU of a laptop and terrible battery life...  (Compromise)

    Battery is on par with 11" MBA and number of PC laptops, actually better than many of them. But I agree, more battery life would be nice. Hopefully Haswell upgrade will improve this.
    Take a look at the MacBook air to see why Apple will not use laptop CPU in its tablet lines.  http://www.apple.com/macbookair/specs.html
    Apple makes it's own SoC for the iPhone, iPad and Apple TV they will get faster and faster over time and will continue to be ARM based.

    ARM makers will improve performance of their solutions, while Intel and AMD will improve power consumption of their solutions. At some point ARMs will be fast enough for all but most demanding tasks, but then x86 CPUs will get into ARMs power consumption margins.

    I personally hope both will strive, and both will compete in all market segments. Nothing pushes progress like good competition.
    Time will tell.

    That it will.
  • Reply 144 of 178
    nikon133nikon133 Posts: 2,600member
    alfiejr wrote: »
    good job by DED skewering the MS fans desperately clutching at straws once again to hype yet another misbegotten MS Windows Everywhere fantasy.

    let's look at the scorecard for the year ...

    MS Great (much hyped by web pundits) Windows 8 New Era 2012-13:

    Windows 8 OS - Despite channel stuffing license "shipments" to OEM's, actual sales are worse than Vista, even after huge 50%-75% upgrade discounts for months (now ending). near total avoidance by businesses, and consumer PC sales have nosedived. A Big Flop, so bad that it is accelerating consumers adoption of tablets as a PC alternative.

    How relative those numbers are. Check this link:

    http://www.techradar.com/news/software/operating-systems/windows-8-sales-are-on-par-with-windows-7-90-days-in-1129313

    Windows 8 is doing fine. Not earth shattering fine, but just fine.

    In addition, while PC industry as a whole did decline, speciffic OEMs did well. Like Lenovo:

    http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/30/lenovo-q3-2012/

    Asus also saw huge growth in 2012.

    Others, well, they'll have to try harder. Obviously machines with Windows 8 can sell well, as long as they are good machines. If they are not, not even OSX would help them. Maybe start with dropping cheap crappy screens from premium laptops (here's looking at you, HP and Sony) - IPS is really not that expensive any more.
    XBox - New focus of MS ecosystem, but nearing end of life, and sales remain depressed (like all game consoles) due to tablet competition. Stuck In Niche

    Define "focus". Last time we talked with MS, volume licensing was still their bread & butter. They were actually giving XBoxes to the best VL resellers, not the other way around.
    Windows Phone 8 - Despite all-in commitment by powerful Nokia, sales are modest at best, adding only a few % to Windows smartphone market share. Going Nowhere.

    http://wmpoweruser.com/windows-phone-seeing-significant-holiday-boost-compared-to-q4-2011/

    Windows Phone 8 sales are improving nicely compared to WP7 sales from the year before. Of course, having already well established Android and iPhone sales doesn't help much, but if MS and partners manage to keep momentum with new devices and software updates, WP can still make it big.
    Surface RT Tablet - Supposedly major iPad rival, now proven DOA. Total Fail.

    I expect that RT will die or get re-branded (maybe lose desktop mode and Office as it is?) and try to create new, cheaper category. With Clover Trail tablets priced within the range of RT, comparable battery life, weight and better performance, there is hardly a reason why would someone get RT instead.
    Surface Pro Tablet - All-in-one Windows miss-mash, combining the limitations of a tablet with the limitations of a notebook, at a high price to boot. Dead Man Walking.

    You say "combining limitations", and I say "combing features". And we are both right, to some degree. What will win, limitations or features? We'll see in a year time. I'm expecting Pro tablet segment to be alive and healthy. Not necessarily with Surface Pro, but with other/all available x86 tablets.
    Overall web pundit reaction to all this? MS is innovating the future! and Wall Street likes MS strategy, it likes it a lot.

    now let's look at Apple ...

    Apple's 2012 Product Cycle:

    OS 10.8 Mountain Lion - popular, with Mac computer sales continuing modest growth (despite overall PC market decline). A Hit.

    How many copies did it sell, and has it boosted Mac sales significantly?
    iPhone 5 - Refreshed hardware setting record sales. Huge Hit.

    It obviously sells well, though I think iOS is reaching saturation and more changes are needed to keep it fresh.
    Apple TV - Key extension of Apple ecosystem, "hobby" product sales continue to increase steadily (actually outselling XBox). Going Someplace.

    Well, it is not a secret that X720 will be anounced some time this year, and current one is 7 years old. Hardly a surprise sales are not keeping up.
    iPad Mini - New mid-size model is very popular. Big Hit.

    Because people will rather spend less if given choice, even on Apple products.
    iPad - Updated model continues to sell well. Solid.

    Overall pundit reaction to all this? Apple has gone stale and is in trouble! and Wall Street trashes its stock.

    do we see a pattern here?

    Apple raised high standards with some sweet and innovative product (at the time of their introduction), so inventors are expecting Apple to keep pushing, not only new products but new categories. I don't think it is realistic nor possible at all times, but that is what happens when you set such expectations.

    But I don't think it is only that. Competition is catching up, and is some behalf bettering Apple's offering, which wasn't the case in first few years of iPhone and iPad existence. Even with MacBooks - see how many premium Windows laptops are available nowadays, with good screens, good battery life... and compare that with such Windows machines back in the days when Apple started with aluminium lappys - there were none. In short, some people might see Apple as ending this high-innovation turn and entering into more-stagnating turn, something that doesn't bode well with investors.
  • Reply 145 of 178

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post









    But I don't think it is only that. Competition is catching up, and is some behalf bettering Apple's offering, which wasn't the case in first few years of iPhone and iPad existence. Even with MacBooks - see how many premium Windows laptops are available nowadays, with good screens, good battery life... and compare that with such Windows machines back in the days when Apple started with aluminium lappys - there were none. In short, some people might see Apple as ending this high-innovation turn and entering into more-stagnating turn, something that doesn't bode well with investors.


     


    Einhorn and other greedy hedge funds and investment banks attempts to make Apple "heel" to their investment wishes, are much more the cause of the drop in stock price. Steve left a 5-year product cycle plan before he left us. Calpers got a wink and a nod, and they stayed in Apple's camp. I think Ivy will perform magic tricks sometime soon.....

  • Reply 146 of 178
    alfiejralfiejr Posts: 1,524member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post





    How relative those numbers are. Check this link:



    http://www.techradar.com/news/software/operating-systems/windows-8-sales-are-on-par-with-windows-7-90-days-in-1129313



    Windows 8 is doing fine. Not earth shattering fine, but just fine.


    channel stuffing + half-off upgrade license sale = BS W8 stats like that one.




    In addition, while PC industry as a whole did decline, speciffic OEMs did well. Like Lenovo:



    http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/30/lenovo-q3-2012/



    Asus also saw huge growth in 2012.



    Others, well, they'll have to try harder. Obviously machines with Windows 8 can sell well, as long as they are good machines. If they are not, not even OSX would help them. Maybe start with dropping cheap crappy screens from premium laptops (here's looking at you, HP and Sony) - IPS is really not that expensive any more.


    "try harder" is not enough. there will be a brutal shake-out among the PC OEM's over the next two years due to a permanent contraction in the PC market plus much longer replacement cycles - at least 25% shrinkage overall (including maybe 1/2 the consumer segments). yes, then the survivors should be ok. let's see how HP and Dell do. i bet one gives up.


    Define "focus". Last time we talked with MS, volume licensing was still their bread & butter. They were actually giving XBoxes to the best VL resellers, not the other way around.

    http://wmpoweruser.com/windows-phone-seeing-significant-holiday-boost-compared-to-q4-2011/


    i'm talking about the media/cloud ecosystems that are the future of the consumer market.


    Windows Phone 8 sales are improving nicely compared to WP7 sales from the year before.Of course, having already well established Android and iPhone sales doesn't help much, but if MS and partners manage to keep momentum with new devices and software updates, WP can still make it big.


    going from 2% to 4% of the market is "100% growth" yes, but it's still terrible. MS last hope is to pick up RIM's left over market share and get above 5%. that would still leave it a very distant third place.


    I expect that RT will die or get re-branded (maybe lose desktop mode and Office as it is?) and try to create new, cheaper category. With Clover Trail tablets priced within the range of RT, comparable battery life, weight and better performance, there is hardly a reason why would someone get RT instead.


    the RT is today's Zune. way too little, way too late, and then killed even deader by the hot new iPad Mini. no hope at all. i don't think MS was ever really that serious about ARM anyway, but needed a tablet product to stay in the market until Intel can produce a decent low power chip for them.


    You say "combining limitations", and I say "combing features". And we are both right, to some degree. What will win, limitations or features? We'll see in a year time. I'm expecting Pro tablet segment to be alive and healthy. Not necessarily with Surface Pro, but with other/all available x86 tablets.


    it only took 3 months to realize the RT was DOA. same for the Pro. but we will keep hearing excuses for it the rest of the year no doubt. other big name OEM's have already given up on the RT. yes they might try with W8 tablets a little longer. one model anyway before giving up.


    How many copies did it sell, and has it boosted Mac sales significantly?


    there are Mountain Lion adoption rate stats out there, go Google. the fact that Mac sales are up at all compared to the rest of the PC industry being down at least 10% tells you all you need to know.


    It obviously sells well, though I think iOS is reaching saturation and more changes are needed to keep it fresh.


    when YOY iPhone sales growth levels off, let me know. didn't happen in the last 12 months.


    Well, it is not a secret that X720 will be anounced some time this year, and current one is 7 years old. Hardly a surprise sales are not keeping up.


    the heavy-gamer/console market has shrunk permanently due to tablet and on-line services competition. so the new Wii sales are very disappointing. if MS is going to break out of that niche with the X720, it will have to feature its media services/cloud apps instead. that market is still wide open - or fragmented if you prefer. Apple has the huge installed iOS device base to leverage, no doubt the reason the Apple TV is selling decently. without popular phones/tablets, MS has only gamers. good luck.


    Because people will rather spend less if given choice, even on Apple products.


    that's one reason the $329 iPad Mini killed the $499 RT.


    Apple raised high standards with some sweet and innovative product (at the time of their introduction), so inventors are expecting Apple to keep pushing, not only new products but new categories. I don't think it is realistic nor possible at all times, but that is what happens when you set such expectations.



    But I don't think it is only that. Competition is catching up, and is some behalf bettering Apple's offering, which wasn't the case in first few years of iPhone and iPad existence. Even with MacBooks - see how many premium Windows laptops are available nowadays, with good screens, good battery life... and compare that with such Windows machines back in the days when Apple started with aluminium lappys - there were none. In short, some people might see Apple as ending this high-innovation turn and entering into more-stagnating turn, something that doesn't bode well with investors.


    you don't really mean "investors" who buy based on fundamentals like P/E ratio. you really mean "speculators" who buy hoping hype will drive a stock price up no matter what the fundamentals. but even the speculators aren't betting on MS stock. sure, the rest of the industry is in constant catch-up-to-Apple mode. based on my scorecard, MS is egregiously failing at that.


    sure, Apple needs to keep improving its established products significantly, including occasional major innovations, to maintain its current leadership position. 2012 was clearly a year of major but evolutionary improvements for Apple. we'll all see what its 2013 product cycle delivers.

  • Reply 147 of 178
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    They are breakdancing in business attire… with ties. Mind… blown! Clearly the Surface Pro must is a completely professional, fun and totally rad device... with absolutely no compromises¡

    [LIST]
    [*]
    [/LIST]



    edit: Here is the full video…

    [VIDEO]



    PS: Why is linking a video so much less of a hassle than linking a photo with Huddler. Such a pain to post an image here.
  • Reply 148 of 178

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by agramonte View Post


     


    No wrong again - I need a mobile device so I can edit work done on a non mobile device. You think I go to the office and sit infront of a 15 inch laptop to do design? you think our marketing department hangs out on macbook Airs down the hall? You think we do layouts on Apple Pages? that every Implementation Manual from our clients can be met with Helvetica and Palatino?


     


    We have mobile devices so when edits come to the Annual Report at the time you are sitting at an airport, they can still get done before you get on (or during the flight) - I do not need a great laptop experience at that point, I need a full software package and corporate font set. If it has limitation so be it - but there is still a full OS. A 2lb, 10 inch 1920X1080 tablet with windows and a full feature stylus sounds great to me.


     


    This is how it works, this is what technology is - I used to think my Pismo was amazing, I know look at it (still at the office closet, and still works after 12 years) next to my Air just to get a laugh on where we used to be. I for one think I will someday put my air next to a full featured tablet, just to get a laugh on where we used to be. iOS is not that tablet



    I was talking about the difference between a tablet and a laptop and what you and so many other supporters of the SP (and similar W8 convertibles) are really talking about is a smaller form factor laptop.  As far as the Wacom digitizer goes - let me know how great it is running any of your Adobe design suites using the SP, which I have to guess that even in situations you describe, will be anything but easy.


     


    Good luck and enjoy - and don't let the door hit you in the arse on your way out...

  • Reply 149 of 178

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post



    They are breakdancing in business attire… with ties. Mind… blown! Clearly the Surface Pro must is a completely professional, fun and totally rad device... with absolutely no compromises¡





    Think of all the fun it will be to break a move while running a funkalicious excel spreadsheet or groovy powerpoint for your hindsight meeting tomorrow!

  • Reply 150 of 178


    After watching the Fashion Mall video, I'm now more confused as to who is their target audience....

     

  • Reply 151 of 178
    hftshfts Posts: 386member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post





    Yes. It is good enough for me to completely discredit your opinion.



    Have a nice day.


     


    I think I touched a raw nerve. Reminds me of the part in Marathon Man.

  • Reply 152 of 178
    hftshfts Posts: 386member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post





    I hope you realize you're not making much sense.


     


    Can you not read between the lines ?


    Of course I'm making sense.


    Just beacuse someone can add in some VB-styled Macros into a spreadsheet does not make them a "power user" per se.


    They are skilled in Excel, and thats all.


     


    As you stepped in to support him, can I assume that you are in this category, and consider yourself a "power-user" ?

  • Reply 153 of 178
    hftshfts Posts: 386member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post





    Size matters, and Win 8 is much better for tablets than XP was.



    Don't forget how size made iPad quite different device from iPod Touch.



    Likewise, these are firs x86 tablets that are actually tablets in terms of size and weight. I'm not talking about Surface Pro only, but all new x86 tablets.



    Sometimes a small change can open new usage scenarios.



    I also fail to understand why so many people are trying to ridicule included digitiser. If you are using SP behind the desk, you can plug 27" monitor and use SP as decently sized 11" Wacom digitiser with 1000 levels of pressure (I believe that is the number being mentioned). Device gives you integrated digitiser. I don't think it limits you to use it on integrated screen only.


     


    So how is Window 8 better than Windows XP, care to elaborate ?


    I think a sizable number of people think the opposite than you. In XP multiple windows can be opened while in Metro mode, only one.


    Is Window 8 larger than XP in size when installed ?


    Can you tell me why after more than 10 years that all of a sudden, people will say "hang on Intel-powered are actually great".


    They failed before and they will fail again.


    Can you not fathom that running Office on a small screen will be counter-productive. yes I know, you will hook it up to your 80 inch TV screen and run it from there. As for Touch for Office, it was already canned when it ran on Surface RT (I could not be bothered finding the links for you, look for yourself).


    So tell me, as a stand-alone device (not hooked up to any other gizmos), how exactly is the Surface Pro going to be different than its predecessors in gathering a sizeable following ? Not by wishful thinking I can tell you that.

  • Reply 154 of 178
    hftshfts Posts: 386member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post


    Are you expecting a serious answer from this guy? image



     


    Maybe add to the post instead of insulting people. This is the 2nd time in just one thread.

  • Reply 155 of 178
    hftshfts Posts: 386member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jmgregory1 View Post


    Think of all the fun it will be to break a move while running a funkalicious excel spreadsheet or groovy powerpoint for your hindsight meeting tomorrow!



     


    Yes, but they are "Power Users", don't you get it !


    The rest of us with our toy iPads are not apparently.


    Strange that these so-called "Power Users" could not design and implement a complex Relational Database application system, but hang on, they can embedd macros into their wonderful Excel spredsheets. And to think I considered myself a programmer these past 27 years, what a fool was I.


    Its Excel, Power Point and Word people, cannot you not see the light, Office is our saviour. All hail Office.


    Yes I had to lay it on thick, because they did.


     


    On a serious note, has anybody seen David Brynes (ex Talking Head) tongue-in cheek parody of Power Point, done ironically in Power Point ?

  • Reply 156 of 178
    nikon133nikon133 Posts: 2,600member
    hfts wrote: »
    I think I touched a raw nerve. Reminds me of the part in Marathon Man.

    Lol. It can remind you of some of the most famous Cicero's speeches (I'd prefer that to Nazi references, even fictional), but it was really just nonsense, and anantksundaram kindly pointed that to you.

    Using any single app (or suite) does not qualify, nor does it disqualify someone from being power user. There is no relation. Or any logic.

    When one gets same opinion from two different sides of spectrum, one might want to reflect on that. It does require some wisdom and humility, though.
  • Reply 157 of 178
    nikon133nikon133 Posts: 2,600member
    hfts wrote: »
    So how is Window 8 better than Windows XP, care to elaborate ?

    Are you for real? It is like asking how is OSX better than original Mac OS. In every possible way. Feel free to Google around, you will learn something.
    I think a sizable number of people think the opposite than you. In XP multiple windows can be opened while in Metro mode, only one.

    I think a sizeable number of people think that, by opening an umbrella in the house, one might get bad luck, like not getting married. What some people think does not necessary mean it is correct. For example, Windows 8 can open two apps on screen in Modern GUI and virtually unlimited number in desktop, meaning that what you think in this case is wrong.
    Is Window 8 larger than XP in size when installed ?

    Of course it is larger. Humour me please. What is the relevance of this question?
    Can you tell me why after more than 10 years that all of a sudden, people will say "hang on Intel-powered are actually great".
    They failed before and they will fail again.

    Dude... are you really for real? 10 years is lifetime in IT. What you are asking can translate to "how is Mercedes today any better than Daimler Benz from 1902". Technology is progressing. 10 years back, you had overheating, under-performing 180nm P4 based hardware running software almost without any touch optimization and with resistive touch screens, sweating and cooking in big convertible laptops with poor case integrity and poorer battery life. But 10 years ago, ARM processors could not give you performance/power consumption anywhere close to modern ARMs. This year, 22nm Haswell iCore is coming out. Yes it's Intel, but not Intel from 2000.
    Can you not fathom that running Office on a small screen will be counter-productive. yes I know, you will hook it up to your 80 inch TV screen and run it from there. As for Touch for Office, it was already canned when it ran on Surface RT (I could not be bothered finding the links for you, look for yourself).
    So tell me, as a stand-alone device (not hooked up to any other gizmos), how exactly is the Surface Pro going to be different than its predecessors in gathering a sizeable following ? Not by wishful thinking I can tell you that.

    I just happen to be 45 years old and working in IT since 1991... so I do know a few things about Office. We do advise all our users to go for at least 2x 19" screen setups for every work PC and laptop, except very specific scenarios (like point of sale units). 50% time or more, our customers are not using laptop screens at all. In the office, they have laptop on docking station, plugged to decent sized screens. They will maybe use laptop screen from home (those that work a lot from home will have big screen there as well). They are more likely to use laptop screen when visiting their customers or cooperatives, though even then they might be using projector or flat TV for presentations.

    Transfer that usage scenario to Surface Pro-like device. Screen size is important but not critical (and why would you insist on using 11" screen whenever you can use 24"?). Compatibility with software, network standards and services is much more important. And no other tablet on market today can offer it. And now you can get it in form factor comparable to iPad/Android tablets. It is not wishful thinking. I don't have MS stock, nor is Gates my relative. It is opinion based on some reasonable industry insight.
  • Reply 158 of 178

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by hfts View Post


    Can you not read between the lines ?


    Of course I'm making sense.


    Just beacuse someone can add in some VB-styled Macros into a spreadsheet does not make them a "power user" per se.


    They are skilled in Excel, and thats all.


     


    As you stepped in to support him, can I assume that you are in this category, and consider yourself a "power-user" ?



    There's no law that says you should do so, but you're sounding more and more bizarre, and you'd be making less of an ass* of yourself if you just shut it off now.


     


    *Br. meaning of the term.

  • Reply 159 of 178

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by hfts View Post


    Maybe add to the post instead of insulting people. This is the 2nd time in just one thread.



    Some people deserve nothing more, nothing less.


     


    Your posts are not particularly flattering of people either.

  • Reply 160 of 178

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by hfts View Post


     


    On a serious note, has anybody seen David Brynes (ex Talking Head) tongue-in cheek parody of Power Point, done ironically in Power Point ?



    David Byrne? Talking Heads (the band's name has an 's', btw)?


     


    Somewhat over-rated band-leader and band, but lots of cute stuff, though.

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