I can't blame them. They've invested in the Surface and their Windows products. I agree they are leaving money on the table but if the Surface or Win tablets make it then MS would have made a bad choice. I'm sure few here think it was never possible with over a decade of failure with Windows on tablets but they didn't go to all this trouble without at least hoping for the best.
All they are really giving up right now if their Win-based tablets fail are short term MS Office on iOS sales unless something else can truly replace the MS Office brand, which I don't think is likely.
MS Office is still considered the de facto suite. I wish Apple would add more enterprise level features and market it more but they don't seem to care to much about it.I hope that changes soon.
The Surface products aren't selling that well.
What Enterprise Level features do you want Apple to add and market more? They've been adding more Enterprise Level features and adding functionality to be on a Windows network. They offer Exchange Support, don't they?
At least Microsoft bothers to update Office. iWork on the Mac is in a very sorry and neglected state which is a shame because it's good and could have been great.
†hey are working on new versions. They just have other projects that have taking up more development. I think we'll see a lot of new releases since they have the OSs under one person rather than splitting them up. I think that's what kind of held them back.
Moving software development under one manager was a good move and then having someone like Ive overseeing hardware and software was also another good move. I look forward to what will come out as a result, but you can't expect everything to change day later.
Even at $50/person (for some mix of apps), $2.5B a year implies 50 million people buying Office. Both of those numbers seem on the high side. Excel and Word are the big draws. People might want PowerPoint, but it's such a basic app, I can't see people paying more than $10 for it.
I don't think it's that far out of line in terms of total dollars, but I agree that it's too high for annual sales. Apple has sold around 100 M iPads and many times that number of iPhones.
What percentage of PCs have Microsoft Office on them? 80%? 90%? If 30% of iPads and 10% of iPhones were to use Office, they'd hit your number.
MSFT needs to wake up before it's too late if they want to maintain the dominance of MS Office. Many companies (especially smaller ones) are discovering that Google Docs supports their needs, and it's platform agnostic.
Ballmer & Gates are so tied to the legacy of Windows and Windows programs that they can't see the forest for the trees.
What Enterprise Level features do you want Apple to add and market more? They've been adding more Enterprise Level features and adding functionality to be on a Windows network. They offer Exchange Support, don't they?
Neither Pages nor Numbers on either OS X or iOS are enterprise level products.
Who would buy it? Pages, Numbers and Keynote can already read and write Microsoft documents. Why would I spend whatever outrageous price Microsoft would charge when I can get Pages for $10?
People buy it on the Mac. It would probably be a higher concentration of enterprise customers. Whether you choose to acknowledge it, this is one area where MS is firmly entrenched. I suspect it will show up on the iPad at some point.
Who would buy it? Pages, Numbers and Keynote can already read and write Microsoft documents. Why would I spend whatever outrageous price Microsoft would charge when I can get Pages for $10?
Others pointed out that MS Office is far more feature-rich, but also consider broken formatting for complex documents. This plagues all MS Office alternatives, and Office is the standard in business.
I use iWork for pretty much everything (I do a lot of page layout stuff and Pages is nice to use), but I have a copy of Office just in case I'm worried about compatibility when sharing files.
Microsoft cannot even get compatibility working with office Mac and office Windows. I bet they are just still working on it. They do want to try a d take enterprise tablet market share, but office will only go so far. They will also get share for crap windows based business process stuff that will run on pro without conversion. But that just means cheaply software and experience. That will only get them so far. They will need office on iPad more that the exclusivity if windows erodes with PC sales and potentially office.
Typical Microsoft tactics. Wait to release a version of a popular Microsoft product on other platforms to give their own Windows OS a leg up on the competition. More reasons to split Microsoft up.
Apple makes OS, hardware and office suite. Microsoft makes OS, hardware and office suite.
What is the difference?
Office suites are becoming less important now days since everyone sends out PDF for the most part. Complex Word documents often have formatting conflicts with various versions of Word, even on Windows, for example Word XP and Word Office 2003 without the compatibility pack. I also don't think Excel power users are as likely to share documents, and if they do, they do so with other power users who have compatible versions. Simpler Excel and Word docs open just fine in Numbers and Pages. PowerPoint and Keynote are problematic though because animations and transitions are not very cross platform compatible and almost all corporate presentations use animation of some sort.
If Microsoft offered Office for iOS, a lot of people would buy it just because of the name, not because they really need it. I hardly ever receive Office documents from Windows based clients, at least not as much as I used to a decade ago, but I have a Windows PC on standby in case I can't open them in iWork.
I can't blame them. They've invested in the Surface and their Windows products. I agree they are leaving money on the table but if the Surface or Win tablets make it then MS would have made a bad choice. I'm sure few here think it was never possible with over a decade of failure with Windows on tablets but they didn't go to all this trouble without at least hoping for the best.
All they are really giving up right now if their Win-based tablets fail are short term MS Office on iOS sales unless something else can truly replace the MS Office brand, which I don't think is likely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdkennedy1
Who would buy it? Pages, Numbers and Keynote can already read and write Microsoft documents. Why would I spend whatever outrageous price Microsoft would charge when I can get Pages for $10?
MS Office is still considered the de facto suite. I wish Apple would add more enterprise level features and market it more but they don't seem to care to much about it.I hope that changes soon.
I think that Apple should enhance and maintain iWork apps (both OS X and iOS) so they:
are feature compatible between iOS and OS X
maintain file compatibility (export) to MS Office (Windows and Mac versions)
maintain the UI UX as is (no ribbon interface and no complex menu bar collections)
perform the 20% of function that 80% of Office users use
add direct DropBox et al I/O
I cannot see any "power Office users" using a tablet to create content -- It would be like carrying fertilizer in the back seat of your Lexus.
I think that Apple should enhance and maintain iWork apps (both OS X and iOS) so they:
are feature compatible between iOS and OS X
maintain file compatibility (export) to MS Office (Windows and Mac versions)
maintain the UI UX as is (no ribbon interface and no complex menu bar collections)
perform the 20% of function that 80% of Office users use
add direct DropBox et al I/O
I cannot see any "power Office users" using a tablet to create content -- It would be like carrying fertilizer in the back seat of your Lexus.
I like the list but I'd change the last two to:
99% of what 80% of Office users need
iOS APIs that will allow select apps to use Dropbox, SugarSync, or other services to work across App Store apps, unless Apple decides to bring back iDisk (as a modern file sharing resource).
iOS APIs that will allow select apps to use Dropbox, SugarSync, or other services to work across App Store apps, unless Apple decides to bring back iDisk (as a modern file sharing resource).
Oh, I'd love that. I wonder… I wonder what Apple's plan was when they put up a bid for Dropbox… I wonder if we haven't seen that plan, even in part, come to fruition since it didn't happen…
From IT departments point, it makes sense. These can be managed. Made part of domain. GPs applied. PC remote management agents, like Kaseya, installed.
From users' point, this is less frustrating than using iOS, regardless of how much they might love their iPads. Support is easier to get. And everything works same as on their desktops/laptops, no need to learn new software (or tablet version of the same software).
When you consider all that, it is hardly surprise MS doesn't want to help iOS to grow strong(er) in enterprise. That would be biggest self-backstabbing they could fork out today. Not only to themselves, but also to their partners who depend on MS offering them something that competition cannot claim to have.
Good points. We could very well see a surge in Windows tablets provided by business to their employees. I don't think that will necessarily hurt iPad sales though. Locked down tablets for work; personal iPad for home.
It is my understanding that iPads success in enterprise is largely because iPads are being used for things that can't be done on a Laptop or a compromise tablet.
With Windows so-called tablets, not only is the hardware compromised... but the OS, UX and apps too -- all so the user can do things he doesn't want or need to do on a tablet.
I think that Apple should enhance and maintain iWork apps (both OS X and iOS) so they:
are feature compatible between iOS and OS X
maintain file compatibility (export) to MS Office (Windows and Mac versions)
maintain the UI UX as is (no ribbon interface and no complex menu bar collections)
perform the 20% of function that 80% of Office users use
add direct DropBox et al I/O
I cannot see any "power Office users" using a tablet to create content -- It would be like carrying fertilizer in the back seat of your Lexus.
I'd accept even file compatibility, never mind full feature for feature compatibility.
I've long used iWork, and AppleWorks before it (since ClarisWorks 2!) Features are fine on the desktop.
But iWork document synchronisation with iOS via iCloud is a joke - primarily as the iOS versions are not writing full versions of the documents.
It's more convenient for me to use Office2 from Byte2 combined with DropBox - a sad state of affairs.
Maybe if Apple had competition from MicroSoft for Office Apps in iOS they might get their act together. Then again, 30% of what MicroSoft would charge (possibly recurringly?) may be more than Apple would make from the iWork Apps. Hardly an incentive.
I think that Apple should enhance and maintain iWork apps (both OS X and iOS) so they:
are feature compatible between iOS and OS X
maintain file compatibility (export) to MS Office (Windows and Mac versions)
maintain the UI UX as is (no ribbon interface and no complex menu bar collections)
perform the 20% of function that 80% of Office users use
add direct DropBox et al I/O
I cannot see any "power Office users" using a tablet to create content -- It would be like carrying fertilizer in the back seat of your Lexus.
I like the list but I'd change the last two to:
99% of what 80% of Office users need
iOS APIs that will allow select apps to use Dropbox, SugarSync, or other services to work across App Store apps, unless Apple decides to bring back iDisk (as a modern file sharing resource).
Oops... I should of explained that better. As with most things there's an approximate 80-20 rule -- stores stock inventory based on research that 80% of purchases are satisfied by 20% of the SKUs.
Similarly, I suspect, that the top 20% of Office functions satisfy all (100%) of the needs of 80% of the Office users...
In too many years of screwing around with and demonstrating Office features to customers I never even used or understood but a small percentage of the features.
Sure, there are Power Office users -- but they are using trucks for the heavy lifting -- and wouldn't even consider a single-window or small screen tablet with limited RAM and file storage.
I would ask the question: What would you use Office for on a tablet?
I suspect the answer would be "not very much and not very often".
Agree with your last suggestion -- Add the APIs to iOS and OSX...
Neither Pages nor Numbers on either OS X or iOS are enterprise level products.
Agreed that they are not as full-featured as MS Office, but we are talking about iOS here, not OSX. Who would realistically be able to utilize all of the complex features and formatting, let alone complex spreadsheets and the like on a 10 inch tablet? Excel takes a lot of horsepower and memory to churn through files with thousands of formulas and calculations. Not sure that would work that well on a tablet at least at today's power levels. If compatibility between the iWork applications and MS Office were improved to preserve formatting better, and iWork were to improve on feature parity a bit, it could fill the need for many tablet users.
Agreed that they are not as full-featured as MS Office, but we are talking about iOS here, not OSX. Who would realistically be able to utilize all of the complex features and formatting, let alone complex spreadsheets and the like on a 10 inch tablet? Excel takes a lot of horsepower and memory to churn through files with thousands of formulas and calculations. Not sure that would work that well on a tablet at least at today's power levels. If compatibility between the iWork applications and MS Office were improved to preserve formatting better, and iWork were to improve on feature parity a bit, it could fill the need for many tablet users.
Excellent points. I was hoping someone was going to make that case. As you say, the memory and horsepower can be immense. I think a networked solution that can basically be a shell for large corporate docs might be a great fit.
MS Office on the RT is terrible. What makes people think that Microsoft can actually make a viable version that works on the iPad. And what is the market for this? I, for one would find using Office on a tablet a terrible experience,
Excel takes a lot of horsepower and memory to churn through files with thousands of formulas and calculations. Not sure that would work that well on a tablet at least at today's power levels.
Why not? The current iPad has the same horsepower as a desktop did only a few years ago and they ran Excel just fine. MS could very easily streamline Office without losing functionality.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
I can't blame them. They've invested in the Surface and their Windows products. I agree they are leaving money on the table but if the Surface or Win tablets make it then MS would have made a bad choice. I'm sure few here think it was never possible with over a decade of failure with Windows on tablets but they didn't go to all this trouble without at least hoping for the best.
All they are really giving up right now if their Win-based tablets fail are short term MS Office on iOS sales unless something else can truly replace the MS Office brand, which I don't think is likely.
MS Office is still considered the de facto suite. I wish Apple would add more enterprise level features and market it more but they don't seem to care to much about it.I hope that changes soon.
The Surface products aren't selling that well.
What Enterprise Level features do you want Apple to add and market more? They've been adding more Enterprise Level features and adding functionality to be on a Windows network. They offer Exchange Support, don't they?
Quote:
Originally Posted by saarek
At least Microsoft bothers to update Office. iWork on the Mac is in a very sorry and neglected state which is a shame because it's good and could have been great.
†hey are working on new versions. They just have other projects that have taking up more development. I think we'll see a lot of new releases since they have the OSs under one person rather than splitting them up. I think that's what kind of held them back.
Moving software development under one manager was a good move and then having someone like Ive overseeing hardware and software was also another good move. I look forward to what will come out as a result, but you can't expect everything to change day later.
I don't think it's that far out of line in terms of total dollars, but I agree that it's too high for annual sales. Apple has sold around 100 M iPads and many times that number of iPhones.
What percentage of PCs have Microsoft Office on them? 80%? 90%? If 30% of iPads and 10% of iPhones were to use Office, they'd hit your number.
MSFT needs to wake up before it's too late if they want to maintain the dominance of MS Office. Many companies (especially smaller ones) are discovering that Google Docs supports their needs, and it's platform agnostic.
Ballmer & Gates are so tied to the legacy of Windows and Windows programs that they can't see the forest for the trees.
Neither Pages nor Numbers on either OS X or iOS are enterprise level products.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdkennedy1
Who would buy it? Pages, Numbers and Keynote can already read and write Microsoft documents. Why would I spend whatever outrageous price Microsoft would charge when I can get Pages for $10?
People buy it on the Mac. It would probably be a higher concentration of enterprise customers. Whether you choose to acknowledge it, this is one area where MS is firmly entrenched. I suspect it will show up on the iPad at some point.
Microsoft cannot even get compatibility working with office Mac and office Windows. I bet they are just still working on it. They do want to try a d take enterprise tablet market share, but office will only go so far. They will also get share for crap windows based business process stuff that will run on pro without conversion. But that just means cheaply software and experience. That will only get them so far. They will need office on iPad more that the exclusivity if windows erodes with PC sales and potentially office.
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank
Typical Microsoft tactics. Wait to release a version of a popular Microsoft product on other platforms to give their own Windows OS a leg up on the competition. More reasons to split Microsoft up.
Apple makes OS, hardware and office suite. Microsoft makes OS, hardware and office suite.
What is the difference?
Office suites are becoming less important now days since everyone sends out PDF for the most part. Complex Word documents often have formatting conflicts with various versions of Word, even on Windows, for example Word XP and Word Office 2003 without the compatibility pack. I also don't think Excel power users are as likely to share documents, and if they do, they do so with other power users who have compatible versions. Simpler Excel and Word docs open just fine in Numbers and Pages. PowerPoint and Keynote are problematic though because animations and transitions are not very cross platform compatible and almost all corporate presentations use animation of some sort.
If Microsoft offered Office for iOS, a lot of people would buy it just because of the name, not because they really need it. I hardly ever receive Office documents from Windows based clients, at least not as much as I used to a decade ago, but I have a Windows PC on standby in case I can't open them in iWork.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
I can't blame them. They've invested in the Surface and their Windows products. I agree they are leaving money on the table but if the Surface or Win tablets make it then MS would have made a bad choice. I'm sure few here think it was never possible with over a decade of failure with Windows on tablets but they didn't go to all this trouble without at least hoping for the best.
All they are really giving up right now if their Win-based tablets fail are short term MS Office on iOS sales unless something else can truly replace the MS Office brand, which I don't think is likely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdkennedy1
Who would buy it? Pages, Numbers and Keynote can already read and write Microsoft documents. Why would I spend whatever outrageous price Microsoft would charge when I can get Pages for $10?
MS Office is still considered the de facto suite. I wish Apple would add more enterprise level features and market it more but they don't seem to care to much about it.I hope that changes soon.
I think that Apple should enhance and maintain iWork apps (both OS X and iOS) so they:
are feature compatible between iOS and OS X
maintain file compatibility (export) to MS Office (Windows and Mac versions)
maintain the UI UX as is (no ribbon interface and no complex menu bar collections)
perform the 20% of function that 80% of Office users use
add direct DropBox et al I/O
I cannot see any "power Office users" using a tablet to create content -- It would be like carrying fertilizer in the back seat of your Lexus.
I like the list but I'd change the last two to:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
iOS APIs that will allow select apps to use Dropbox, SugarSync, or other services to work across App Store apps, unless Apple decides to bring back iDisk (as a modern file sharing resource).
Oh, I'd love that. I wonder… I wonder what Apple's plan was when they put up a bid for Dropbox… I wonder if we haven't seen that plan, even in part, come to fruition since it didn't happen…
What if MS offered full Office for the iPad (equivalent to Office on the RT)... for say, $60 -- and it didn't sell well?
The Ballmer would pooh his knickers...
Quote:
Originally Posted by malax
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133
From IT departments point, it makes sense. These can be managed. Made part of domain. GPs applied. PC remote management agents, like Kaseya, installed.
From users' point, this is less frustrating than using iOS, regardless of how much they might love their iPads. Support is easier to get. And everything works same as on their desktops/laptops, no need to learn new software (or tablet version of the same software).
When you consider all that, it is hardly surprise MS doesn't want to help iOS to grow strong(er) in enterprise. That would be biggest self-backstabbing they could fork out today. Not only to themselves, but also to their partners who depend on MS offering them something that competition cannot claim to have.
Good points. We could very well see a surge in Windows tablets provided by business to their employees. I don't think that will necessarily hurt iPad sales though. Locked down tablets for work; personal iPad for home.
It is my understanding that iPads success in enterprise is largely because iPads are being used for things that can't be done on a Laptop or a compromise tablet.
With Windows so-called tablets, not only is the hardware compromised... but the OS, UX and apps too -- all so the user can do things he doesn't want or need to do on a tablet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
I think that Apple should enhance and maintain iWork apps (both OS X and iOS) so they:
are feature compatible between iOS and OS X
maintain file compatibility (export) to MS Office (Windows and Mac versions)
maintain the UI UX as is (no ribbon interface and no complex menu bar collections)
perform the 20% of function that 80% of Office users use
add direct DropBox et al I/O
I cannot see any "power Office users" using a tablet to create content -- It would be like carrying fertilizer in the back seat of your Lexus.
I'd accept even file compatibility, never mind full feature for feature compatibility.
I've long used iWork, and AppleWorks before it (since ClarisWorks 2!) Features are fine on the desktop.
But iWork document synchronisation with iOS via iCloud is a joke - primarily as the iOS versions are not writing full versions of the documents.
It's more convenient for me to use Office2 from Byte2 combined with DropBox - a sad state of affairs.
Maybe if Apple had competition from MicroSoft for Office Apps in iOS they might get their act together. Then again, 30% of what MicroSoft would charge (possibly recurringly?) may be more than Apple would make from the iWork Apps. Hardly an incentive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
I think that Apple should enhance and maintain iWork apps (both OS X and iOS) so they:
are feature compatible between iOS and OS X
maintain file compatibility (export) to MS Office (Windows and Mac versions)
maintain the UI UX as is (no ribbon interface and no complex menu bar collections)
perform the 20% of function that 80% of Office users use
add direct DropBox et al I/O
I cannot see any "power Office users" using a tablet to create content -- It would be like carrying fertilizer in the back seat of your Lexus.
I like the list but I'd change the last two to:
99% of what 80% of Office users need
iOS APIs that will allow select apps to use Dropbox, SugarSync, or other services to work across App Store apps, unless Apple decides to bring back iDisk (as a modern file sharing resource).
Oops... I should of explained that better. As with most things there's an approximate 80-20 rule -- stores stock inventory based on research that 80% of purchases are satisfied by 20% of the SKUs.
Similarly, I suspect, that the top 20% of Office functions satisfy all (100%) of the needs of 80% of the Office users...
In too many years of screwing around with and demonstrating Office features to customers I never even used or understood but a small percentage of the features.
Sure, there are Power Office users -- but they are using trucks for the heavy lifting -- and wouldn't even consider a single-window or small screen tablet with limited RAM and file storage.
I would ask the question: What would you use Office for on a tablet?
I suspect the answer would be "not very much and not very often".
Agree with your last suggestion -- Add the APIs to iOS and OSX...
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
Neither Pages nor Numbers on either OS X or iOS are enterprise level products.
Agreed that they are not as full-featured as MS Office, but we are talking about iOS here, not OSX. Who would realistically be able to utilize all of the complex features and formatting, let alone complex spreadsheets and the like on a 10 inch tablet? Excel takes a lot of horsepower and memory to churn through files with thousands of formulas and calculations. Not sure that would work that well on a tablet at least at today's power levels. If compatibility between the iWork applications and MS Office were improved to preserve formatting better, and iWork were to improve on feature parity a bit, it could fill the need for many tablet users.
Excellent points. I was hoping someone was going to make that case. As you say, the memory and horsepower can be immense. I think a networked solution that can basically be a shell for large corporate docs might be a great fit.
Why not? The current iPad has the same horsepower as a desktop did only a few years ago and they ran Excel just fine. MS could very easily streamline Office without losing functionality.