Apple's iCloud disparaged over Core Data sync problems

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  • Reply 41 of 120
    gijoeinlagijoeinla Posts: 215member
    Funny that the cloud based apps I use ALL work..amazingly well in fact.. I mean does any of these reporters FACT check for themselves whether there truly is a *problem* with Apple OR is it the APP itself? I've found icloud so far to be more reliable than expected... I know a lot of you expect perfection but c'mon .... Let's all remember we live in the real world ...more times than not I find myself writing the App developer on issues -- that's if there's even a good way to contact them... How bout doing articles beating up on some lame operational apps - out them for a change...
  • Reply 42 of 120
    nhtnht Posts: 4,522member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by YoRio View Post



    As a developer, my main problem with iCloud isn't even its reliability, but rather the fact that there is no public API to access its content from the web. This means that even if it does become reliable, anything stored on iCloud cannot be accessed outside of iOS or OS X apps. Many apps want to offer a companion web service sharing account info, app data and so on. For me, this is the real showstopper: imagine Dropbox without the web access! Ironically, Apple's own apps (Mail, Calendar) DO access iCloud from their web interface!... Oh well.


     


    Well, yah...that's kinda as designed to benefit only the Apple ecosystem.  Apple's not really into providing cross platform solutions except as stopgaps for their own strategic needs *cough*Safari for windows*cough*.


     


    Given that iCloud syncing for Core Data may be flakey and only document synching is stable I'd go with Dropbox integration first anyway...

  • Reply 43 of 120
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    yorio wrote: »
    As a developer, my main problem with iCloud isn't even its reliability, but rather the fact that there is no public API to access its content from the web. This means that even if it does become reliable, anything stored on iCloud cannot be accessed outside of iOS or OS X apps.

    www.icloud.com.

    You're welcome.
    mstone wrote: »

    Any of the 206,000 documents returned by this Google search: icloud core data problems

    or the dozens of posts on the iOS Developer forums which I am not allowed to post links to.

    Maybe you could get someone to explain the difference between 'core data' and "coredata".

    Oh, and btw, 'm stone idiot' turns up 1,010,000 hits on Bing, so I guess it must be five times as true as your claims.

    mstone wrote: »

    Sorry I was just being flippant. I'm trying to have a reasonable discussion about the topic at hand with out criticizing  anyone, or Apple and some jackass keeps stalking me.

    Sorry, but pointing out that your relentless FUD has absolutely no facts to back it up is not stalking.

    You keep throwing out mindless, unsupported hate-filled commentary and you don't like it when I ask you to prove your claims. Too bad.
  • Reply 44 of 120
    emig647emig647 Posts: 2,455member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post





    www.icloud.com.



    You're welcome.

    Maybe you could get someone to explain the difference between 'core data' and "coredata".


     


    Are you implying it's "CoreData" vs "Core Data"? If so, It's "Core Data" not CoreData. Just as it's Core Storage, Core Image, Core Audio, Core Video, Core Services, etc. 


     


    https://developer.apple.com/technologies/mac/data-management.html


     


    https://developer.apple.com/technologies/mac/audio-and-video.html


     


    If not, disregard

  • Reply 45 of 120
    mstonemstone Posts: 11,510member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by emig647 View Post




    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post





    www.icloud.com.



    You're welcome.

    Maybe you could get someone to explain the difference between 'core data' and "coredata".


     


    Are you implying it's "CoreData" vs "Core Data"? If so, It's "Core Data" not CoreData. Just as it's Core Storage, Core Image,  Core Audio, Core Video, Core Services, etc. 


     



    Surprisingly Apple uses both versions apparently interchangeably. If you notice in the Developer left side menu they display it as CoreData, CoreFoundation, CoreLocation, etc. but in most cases in the documentation they refer to it as Core Data.


     


    I'm not sure what jargosta was implying but hence forth I will not be replying to his rants.


     


    Clearly this dude has some social incapacity. I mostly find Apple fans as reasonable, polite, good natured and compassionate humanitarians, but lately there is a alarming new jihadist contingent which is completely militant and offensive. He is among those who I no longer share anything in common and also find quite objectionable. I am one of the original Apple devotees and find a lot of this current crop of apologists rather off putting and very closed minded.

  • Reply 46 of 120
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    emig647 wrote: »
    Are you implying it's "CoreData" vs "Core Data"? If so, It's "Core Data" not CoreData. Just as it's Core Storage, Core Image, Core Audio, Core Video, Core Services, etc. 

    https://developer.apple.com/technologies/mac/data-management.html

    https://developer.apple.com/technologies/mac/audio-and-video.html

    If not, disregard

    In their technical documentation, they tend to use it without the space - to be consistent with their API naming conventions.
    http://www.apple.com/ipad/business/docs/iOS_Security_Oct12.pdf
    "Data Protection is available for file and database APIs, including NSFileManager, CoreData, NSData, and SQLite."

    or

    https://developer.apple.com/library/ios/#samplecode/CoreDataBooks/Introduction/Intro.html

    Maybe that's why the developer is having problems - adding spaces where they shouldn't be. /s

    Oh, and btw, when the original source is The Verge, it's probably best to take it with a massive grain of salt.
  • Reply 47 of 120
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    mstone wrote: »
    Surprisingly Apple uses both versions apparently interchangeably. If you notice in the Developer left side menu they display it as CoreData, CoreFoundation, CoreLocation, etc. but in most cases in the documentation they refer to it as Core Data.

    I'm not sure what jargosta was implying but hence forth I will not be replying to his rants.

    What you really meant to say was "I never have facts to back up my FUD and since jragosta keeps asking me for evidence, I'll just ignore his posts".
  • Reply 48 of 120
    asciiascii Posts: 5,936member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post



    This is one of an endless stream of articles about "someone is complaining about something that Apple did". It's absolutely impossible to tell if this is a problem that affects an insignificant number of people and which has a simple workaround or if it's a serious problem that affects a large number of users.


    I know what you mean, there are a lot of silly Apple beat up articles on the web, but unfortunately this is not one of them.  I have experienced it myself, wasted weeks of work. And here is a reputable, non-Apple hating developer, made up of ex Apple employees, Black Pixel, saying the same thing, the new upcoming version of NetNewsWire will not use iCloud: http://blackpixel.com/blog/2013/03/the-return-of-netnewswire.html

  • Reply 49 of 120
    macbook promacbook pro Posts: 1,605member

    Foolishness. I hope you've simply left off the quotation marks for the purpose of unnecessary truncation. I get ~48,000 with [iCloud "Core Data" problems] in Google and ~1,600 in Bing with the same.

    Of course, neither of these searches are in and of themselves useful in determining anything meaningful about the state of affairs, so I'm not sure why you'd even bring it up.

    Search "Google bankruptcy" and you'll get ~51,200,000 and ~580,000 on the big G and B, respectively. 

    It's utterly meaningless.


    I don't know. I had 143,000,000 hits for Google sucks. In fact, Google Search even autofilled the search for me.
  • Reply 50 of 120
    emoelleremoeller Posts: 579member
    rare wrote: »
    Perhaps the best, most detailed explanation of the problems that I've seen:

    The Gathering Storm: Our Travails with iCloud Sync

    Thanks for the link. An excellent summary of the issues from a well respected software firm.
  • Reply 51 of 120


    Well, that’s what happens when people comment before they read, and read without comprehending what was written. Actually, all the answers are in the article.


     


    1. Comparing to Drop Box or Google online services is meaningless. Both of those do not sync databases, unless you represent them as a plain file or a simple key-value set. Maybe iCloud is the only db syncing service out there, maybe not. I don’t know. Would be great to see another example that does the same thing.


     


    2. iCloud + Core Data works. What doesn’t work is a hypothetical magical solution that can automatically resolve sync problems on ANY database. Many professional developers seriously believe this is actually in the realm of possibility. It isn’t. The only safe way to go is to make the user resolve DB conflicts, but this isn’t user friendly and might not even be possible due to the data structure complexity. To put it simply, this is a fundamental problem with no general solution. It must be solved in each application separately by the developers. Problem iCloud has nothing to do with.


     


    3. Implementing iCloud in an app is quite complex. And making Core Data work with iCloud is the most complex task of all iCloud has to offer. In a big enough app it would require a programmer with years of experience in Cocoa. This is why when you google for “problems” you will obviously find a lot of entries. As you will with many much more simpler programmers’ tasks btw. Could it had been made less demanding? I believe so, yes, but once again, it doesn’t mean iCloud with Core Data isn’t working right now. It means Apple may address complaints by providing convenient facilities (wrappers, classes) for the most common DB syncing tasks. In other words, Apple needs to fool-proof and dumb down its iCloud APIs.

  • Reply 52 of 120
    matrix07matrix07 Posts: 1,993member


    Should we criticize something without acknowledging the others? The kind of article will sound a bit slant toward anti-Apple. The more appropriate approach is to show clearly how many apps using CoreData syncing (problem) compared to how many using document syncing (no problem). 


    I guess Apple knew about the weakness of CoreData syncing very well. After all, Margo Arment just criticized it not too long ago (before even this article).

  • Reply 53 of 120
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    ascii wrote: »
    I know what you mean, there are a lot of silly Apple beat up articles on the web, but unfortunately this is not one of them.  I have experienced it myself, wasted weeks of work. And here is a reputable, non-Apple hating developer, made up of ex Apple employees, Black Pixel, saying the same thing, the new upcoming version of NetNewsWire will not use iCloud: http://blackpixel.com/blog/2013/03/the-return-of-netnewswire.html

    That's nice, but it still doesn't address the question of how serious a problem it is.

    A reasonably researched article would say something like:
    "Apple says that 20,000 apps use CoreData. During the past 6 months, about 10% of the app developers have had problems, based on a survey conducted by billybobssurveys. The most frequently reported problems are......." and so one. There needs to be some effort to quantify the extent of the problem.

    The difficulty with these articles is that there are probably tens of thousands of apps using CoreData and many millions of users. Under those circumstances, there WILL BE problems. I don't care if the software was written by God, himself. There WILL BE problems. Unless there's some reason to believe that the problems are widespread or severe, it's a useless article.

    And, there's absolutely nothing in the article you cite that indicates that it's a problem with CoreData rather than programmer incompetence on the developer's part.
  • Reply 54 of 120
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,354member
    Just for the record there are other services outside of Apple that iOS developers could check-out for Core Data syncing. This is one of them:
    http://wasabisync.com/

    BTW, did Yojimbo do Core Data syncing before Apple finally dumped MobileMe last year or was it simply file syncing?
  • Reply 55 of 120
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,354member
    viktorcode wrote: »
    Well, that’s what happens when people comment before they read, and read without comprehending what was written. Actually, all the answers are in the article.

    1. Comparing to Drop Box or Google online services is meaningless. Both of those do not sync databases, unless you represent them as a plain file or a simple key-value set. Maybe iCloud is the only db syncing service out there, maybe not. I don’t know. Would be great to see another example that does the same thing.

    Does this describe database syncing in Google Apps? I'm not absolutely certain but it seems to. You're much more knowledgeable about this than I am. I won't even pretend to be qualified to answer that.

    http://static.googleusercontent.com/external_content/untrusted_dlcp/www.google.com/en/us/support/enterprise/static/gapps/docs/admin/en/gads/admin/gads_admin.pdf
  • Reply 56 of 120
    anonymouseanonymouse Posts: 6,889member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mstone View Post


    I am one of the original Apple devotees.



     


    You keep saying that, but as long as I've been on this site, you've done nothing but bitch and moan that everything Apple does is wrong. You could just be so pissed off about Apples's role in killing Flash, and unable to get over it, that you have nothing to express but anger, but, frankly, you seem a lot more like just a concern troll.

  • Reply 57 of 120
    stelligentstelligent Posts: 2,680member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by perryke View Post



    I'm not a developer. Is my inability to find a third party app that synchronizes correctly with the iOS/OSX/iCloud versions of Apple's Reminders app probably a Core Data issue or just a Reminders app immaturity problem?


    It's both. It also answers the simplistic question of "iCloud works fine for me and what are developers whining about".

  • Reply 58 of 120
    stelligentstelligent Posts: 2,680member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post


     


    You keep saying that, but as long as I've been on this site, you've done nothing but bitch and moan that everything Apple does is wrong. You could just be so pissed off about Apples's role in killing Flash, and unable to get over it, that you have nothing to express but anger, but, frankly, you seem a lot more like just a concern troll.



    Labeling someone a troll is a facile, un-constructive tactic to both stifle and inflame a debate. I think you're better than that.

  • Reply 59 of 120
    ankleskaterankleskater Posts: 1,287member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post


    Well, iCloud is a more pervasive, thorough, and ambitious cloud and syncing solution than anyone has ever done or is doing, including Google.



     


     


    False. iCloud is up there. But hell no, iCloud is not the most pervasive, not the most thorough and not the most ambitious cloud and syncing solution.


     


    Quote:


    Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post


     


    So no, Apple doesn't just "plain suck" at cloud, they're just pushing the envelope more than anyone, and running into extremely complex technical problems to resolve that noone has ever encountered, and not simple to just "solve".



     


    Partly true. They no longer suck at it. But there are still serious problems. Problems that no one has encountered? That's true of almost anyone because everyone has a different solution.


     


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post


     


    iCloud is responsible for a shitload of services, processes, and features on hundreds of millions of devices spanning Phones, tablets, iPods, and computers, under millions of use case scenarios, and often under unreliable network conditions, in which its constantly syncing and comparing massive amounts of data between different devices and platforms, while the userbase is growing by like 50 million devices a quarter. 


     



     


    This is a reasonable argument, in part. The most impressive thing about iCloud is its growth. According to Apple's own numbers, iCloud users grew from 125M in April 2012 to 190M in September 2012 to 250M in Jan 2013. We have not seen a degradation in service with this extremely sharp growth curve. Kudos to Apple for that. At the same time, how Apple is counting iCloud users is not known.


     


    Quote:


    Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post


     


    So yeah, stuff will happen, shit won't work 100% perfectly 100% of the time, but based on recent customer satisfaction numbers, it seems to work damn well for a majority of people. I doubt any other company on the planet could pull off what Apple has pulled off, as noone else has the balls or the ambition to make someone as thorough and complex. 


     



     


    This is where your argument becomes totally derailed. This article is not about how well current iCloud services work or not. As for no one else making something as thorough and complex, you're so wrong that it's not funny. But it's your standard modus operandi to rant and shout without knowing the real facts, a tactic that clouds the few rational arguments you present from time to time. Too bad.


     


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post


     


    Not sure why I bothered to give such a rational answer to your assinine statement, as it's obvious you're a troll. 


     



     


    You need to learn how to spell. It's embarrassing to call something stupid when your rants are regularly replete with stupid spelling mistakes, the frequency of which points to a poor education and not typos being the cause.


     


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post


     


    On another note, do we really need a multi-line sig which includes the specs, HDD, and ram of your computer? Why, who cares, and who does it benefit? All it does is create useless noise in necessitate more scrolling. 



     


    Oh, I do so agree with this. While we are at it, when quoting posts with large images, please remove them in the responses.

  • Reply 60 of 120
    mstonemstone Posts: 11,510member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post




    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mstone View Post


    I am one of the original Apple devotees.



     


    You keep saying that, but as long as I've been on this site, you've done nothing but bitch and moan that everything Apple does is wrong. You could just be so pissed off about Apples's role in killing Flash, and unable to get over it, that you have nothing to express but anger, but, frankly, you seem a lot more like just a concern troll.



    That is not true. You are seeing things through your own lens. I never criticized Apple for their stance on Flash. I supported Adobe Flash as a very powerful creative tool for design, presenting animations, and interactivity, and I still do. If Apple doesn't want to support it that is their choice. I still use it all the time because there is nothing out there that can replace it for what I use for. I am fully supportive of Apple's position on no Flash in iOS as I think it is the wrong technology for a touch based mobile device. As far as my devotion to Apple I stand by that as well. How could I not be a fan of Apple? By my own decision,I  work on Apple devices and computer full time everyday and highly recommend them to my friends and acquaintances. You apparently want to characterize me as apposed to Apple just for arguments sake as your description of me could not be further from the truth.

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