A interesting view. I'm still sad TC did not tell China to go f*** themselves, pull out all the manufacturing and contracts and sales and just decide to ignore china, but I guess it would require bigger balls than anyone on Earth can possibly have ^^
That would be the knee jerk reaction.
Reality is, China will soon overtake the US and become Apple's largest market. You don't just tell them to f*** off.
Another reality is, that only in China can they manufacture millions upon millions of iDevices every year at the cost that Apple and other manufacturers are accustomed to. It will take years for any other counrty to reach China's manufacturing capacity.
Another dose of reality would be China's hold on the rare earth metals market.
Shows you how important China is to Apple. Who else has Apple grovelled to?
Groveling takes different forms in different environments. In the US, it means "lobbying", if you know what I mean. In China, it means responding to state requests for "humility", if you know what I mean.
It's only our macho pride that thinks this apology is a bad thing. I think Apple's arrogance has always caused them to think that their way of doing things can override local laws in any country. Even though the Chinese media barrage was obviously triggered by the Chinese Government (Apple probably pissed some official off), there was at least some merit to their claims.
Apple issuing a piece of paper has probably save them several $billion in sales. There is no way Apple (or any company) was going to walk away from the Chinese market or threaten to stop manufacturing there (although I would have loved to have seen that). So under the circumstances, it was absolutely the right thing to do. It cost Apple next to nothing.
That was my point. Jobs didn't apologise. Even Gruber said they way Jobs handled the situation wasn't good. Jobs had a tone through the whole thing like he was blaming his customers. It rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. He could have handled it better. If anything, the way he handled the situation hurt Apple's image a little. It's forgotten by now for the most part, but that's thanks merely to time and new units yearly. Tim handle this far better IMO.
There is no way Apple (or any company) was going to walk away from the Chinese market or threaten to stop manufacturing there (although I would have loved to have seen that).
Threaten to stop manufactering in China? That's a good one.
Shows you how important China is to Apple. Who else has Apple grovelled to?
Every user on iOS 6
a few years back, everyone with an iPhone 4, even though maybe 1/10th of a percent of folks in the US and fewer outside it where having issues
Apple didn't really change anything. They don't replace whole phones in any country when only one replaceable part is broken, at least not as official policy (if some store is playing by its own rules that'll a different matter). Chinese warranty laws likely say that they have to give a one year warranty to any replaced part. Which means if you blow out your speaker and they install a new speaker, the speaker is covered for a year, not everything in the phone. Which is fair and reasonable.
the only 'big' thing they did was a formal and published way to send them feedback about authorized third party shops.
And their apology about any misunderstandings, which reads more like they just called most of China stupid for not looking up the policies. But worded in a way that sort folks won't figure out they were just insulted. And yet by saying anything China can claim a victory and shut up folks complaining to them and demanding they do something. Same as much of the EU where there were no actual suits about someone being denied a proper claim, but a lot of folks that don't know their own laws (anymore than they say the Apple staff does)
A interesting view. I'm still sad TC did not tell China to go f*** themselves, pull out all the manufacturing and contracts and sales and just decide to ignore china, but I guess it would require bigger balls than anyone on Earth can possibly have ^^
Three words: rare earth metals. At the moment China has the biggest cache and they refuse to export them in pure form. You want them, you have to build the parts in China. And basically every logic, graphics etc board requires them. So until Japan has their newly discovered pile out of the ground or DNA computing is usable on a major scale, no one can kiss off China
When you do business in Asia, especially in Japan, Korea, and China you need to understand the concept of saving face and the power of an apology. Once you offer a sincere apology it would be shameful for the recipient of the apology not to be extremely gracious and magnanimous. It matters not if you did anything wrong or not or if an apology was even warranted. I can't tell you how many times I had to say "Honto ni, gomen nasai" (which basically means I am really sorry) when I lived in Japan when I did nothing wrong and was usually rewarded with gifts and other goodies just for being respectful of their culture. Good job Tim on understanding Chinese culture .
It was a very deft move and likely garnered Apple a lot of good will within the CCP. The party had egg on it's face after the tweet debacle and Apple's letter allows the state media to claim victory and save face.
Three words: rare earth metals. At the moment China has the biggest cache and they refuse to export them in pure form. You want them, you have to build the parts in China. And basically every logic, graphics etc board requires them. So until Japan has their newly discovered pile out of the ground or DNA computing is usable on a major scale, no one can kiss off China
The US and many other countries have rare earth metals, but as it stands from an economic perspective it is cheaper to build your parts in China than to do open pit mining and the environmental clean up. If the costs get too high economically or politically the US will expand mining again. In fact Mountain Pass, California has recently reopened their rare earth mining operation.
Every LED, like the ones used for modern automobile signaling/break lights requires rare earth metals to manufacture. I'm not sure about graphic boards as you mention but the manufacture of computer display screens is among the major uses of rare earth metals.
This has nothing to do with the relative importance of the Chinese and US markets -- both are very important. It has everything to do with the political and legal systems in the two countries. In the US, there's a fair court to go to (as there is in the EU and UK). That doesn't exist in China.
TC handled this very deftly. It was exactly the right thing to do in China.
But it would be very interesting to know what was behind this attack on Apple in China. What was the *real* issue here? My guess is that there's some arm of the Chinese government whose job is to look out for any entity -- particularly foreign entities -- that are becoming too popular and might one day pose some kind of threat (however distant) to the Chinese government. My guess is that somebody in that bureaucracy identified Apple as a threat. TC's letter showed the required deference and so this particular set of bureaucrats can now go bother somebody else.
But TC's letter might have also illustrated that Apple is not the typically naive American company. This is the right way to handle this sort of thing in China. It actually makes Apple stronger, not weaker, because it shows the Chinese government that Apple understands what the bounds are in China and respects them (unlike Google). This could be a very big win for Apple longer term.
A interesting view. I'm still sad TC did not tell China to go f*** themselves, pull out all the manufacturing and contracts and sales and just decide to ignore china, but I guess it would require bigger balls than anyone on Earth can possibly have ^^
And a MUCH smaller brain than a person needs to be able to breathe. Taking your silly suggestion to its logical conclusion Apple would have to pull out not only from China, but from the entire EU, India, Brazil, Australia ... in fact any country that has it's own sovereign laws that don't match the US preconception of how the world should be. Would be great for Samsung though.
A interesting view. I'm still sad TC did not tell China to go f*** themselves, pull out all the manufacturing and contracts and sales and just decide to ignore china, but I guess it would require bigger balls than anyone on Earth can possibly have ^^
[...] suggestion to its logical conclusion Apple would have to pull out not only from China, but from the entire EU, India, Brazil, Australia ... in fact any country that has it's own sovereign laws that don't match the US preconception of how the world should be. Would be great for Samsung though.
No I think the countries you mentioned all have free elections and laws similar to the US.
As huge as the Chinese black market is, so long as their citizens are interested in obtaining an iPhone, regardless of whether they were legal to sell there or not, they would probably find a way to acquire one. If they were not obtainable through legal sources, it would make them that much more of a status symbol to own. Might cost triple what we pay in the States but if it makes you look rich and important it is worth it. I have heard that there is some brand of cigarette sold in China that is really, really expensive and even people who don't smoke will buy them and display them on a table in a cafe just to look important. Is that true?
Having read Apple's apology and the response in China, it appears that Tim Cook et all did a very good job of understanding the country and responding in a way that is culturally and politically sophisticated. Only time will tell if Apple can be successful in the world's largest country and market over the long term. But what they've done so far certainly looks good.
Maybe Tim Cook should be Secretary of State. At least, he knows that you get nowhere with making your partners angry with you. Maybe we should try hardier to understand people and cultures.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightknight
A interesting view. I'm still sad TC did not tell China to go f*** themselves, pull out all the manufacturing and contracts and sales and just decide to ignore china, but I guess it would require bigger balls than anyone on Earth can possibly have ^^
That would be the knee jerk reaction.
Reality is, China will soon overtake the US and become Apple's largest market. You don't just tell them to f*** off.
Another reality is, that only in China can they manufacture millions upon millions of iDevices every year at the cost that Apple and other manufacturers are accustomed to. It will take years for any other counrty to reach China's manufacturing capacity.
Another dose of reality would be China's hold on the rare earth metals market.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lerxt
Shows you how important China is to Apple. Who else has Apple grovelled to?
Groveling takes different forms in different environments. In the US, it means "lobbying", if you know what I mean. In China, it means responding to state requests for "humility", if you know what I mean.
It's only our macho pride that thinks this apology is a bad thing. I think Apple's arrogance has always caused them to think that their way of doing things can override local laws in any country. Even though the Chinese media barrage was obviously triggered by the Chinese Government (Apple probably pissed some official off), there was at least some merit to their claims.
Apple issuing a piece of paper has probably save them several $billion in sales. There is no way Apple (or any company) was going to walk away from the Chinese market or threaten to stop manufacturing there (although I would have loved to have seen that). So under the circumstances, it was absolutely the right thing to do. It cost Apple next to nothing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Big Ginger
iPhone 4 antenna issues where Apple apologised and gave out free bumpers?
Yes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell
Yes, except Jobs didn't apologise.
That was my point. Jobs didn't apologise. Even Gruber said they way Jobs handled the situation wasn't good. Jobs had a tone through the whole thing like he was blaming his customers. It rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. He could have handled it better. If anything, the way he handled the situation hurt Apple's image a little. It's forgotten by now for the most part, but that's thanks merely to time and new units yearly. Tim handle this far better IMO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoetmb
It's only our macho pride that thinks this apology is a bad thing.
I think it's a good thing. And it shows Tim is a leader.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoetmb
There is no way Apple (or any company) was going to walk away from the Chinese market or threaten to stop manufacturing there (although I would have loved to have seen that).
Threaten to stop manufactering in China? That's a good one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lerxt
Shows you how important China is to Apple. Who else has Apple grovelled to?
Every user on iOS 6
a few years back, everyone with an iPhone 4, even though maybe 1/10th of a percent of folks in the US and fewer outside it where having issues
Apple didn't really change anything. They don't replace whole phones in any country when only one replaceable part is broken, at least not as official policy (if some store is playing by its own rules that'll a different matter). Chinese warranty laws likely say that they have to give a one year warranty to any replaced part. Which means if you blow out your speaker and they install a new speaker, the speaker is covered for a year, not everything in the phone. Which is fair and reasonable.
the only 'big' thing they did was a formal and published way to send them feedback about authorized third party shops.
And their apology about any misunderstandings, which reads more like they just called most of China stupid for not looking up the policies. But worded in a way that sort folks won't figure out they were just insulted. And yet by saying anything China can claim a victory and shut up folks complaining to them and demanding they do something. Same as much of the EU where there were no actual suits about someone being denied a proper claim, but a lot of folks that don't know their own laws (anymore than they say the Apple staff does)
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightknight
A interesting view. I'm still sad TC did not tell China to go f*** themselves, pull out all the manufacturing and contracts and sales and just decide to ignore china, but I guess it would require bigger balls than anyone on Earth can possibly have ^^
Three words: rare earth metals. At the moment China has the biggest cache and they refuse to export them in pure form. You want them, you have to build the parts in China. And basically every logic, graphics etc board requires them. So until Japan has their newly discovered pile out of the ground or DNA computing is usable on a major scale, no one can kiss off China
There's an old saying; it starts: When in Rome...
When you do business in Asia, especially in Japan, Korea, and China you need to understand the concept of saving face and the power of an apology. Once you offer a sincere apology it would be shameful for the recipient of the apology not to be extremely gracious and magnanimous. It matters not if you did anything wrong or not or if an apology was even warranted. I can't tell you how many times I had to say "Honto ni, gomen nasai" (which basically means I am really sorry) when I lived in Japan when I did nothing wrong and was usually rewarded with gifts and other goodies just for being respectful of their culture. Good job Tim on understanding Chinese culture .
It was a very deft move and likely garnered Apple a lot of good will within the CCP. The party had egg on it's face after the tweet debacle and Apple's letter allows the state media to claim victory and save face.
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna
Three words: rare earth metals. At the moment China has the biggest cache and they refuse to export them in pure form. You want them, you have to build the parts in China. And basically every logic, graphics etc board requires them. So until Japan has their newly discovered pile out of the ground or DNA computing is usable on a major scale, no one can kiss off China
The US and many other countries have rare earth metals, but as it stands from an economic perspective it is cheaper to build your parts in China than to do open pit mining and the environmental clean up. If the costs get too high economically or politically the US will expand mining again. In fact Mountain Pass, California has recently reopened their rare earth mining operation.
Every LED, like the ones used for modern automobile signaling/break lights requires rare earth metals to manufacture. I'm not sure about graphic boards as you mention but the manufacture of computer display screens is among the major uses of rare earth metals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightknight
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastdoor
This has nothing to do with the relative importance of the Chinese and US markets -- both are very important. It has everything to do with the political and legal systems in the two countries. In the US, there's a fair court to go to (as there is in the EU and UK). That doesn't exist in China.
TC handled this very deftly. It was exactly the right thing to do in China.
But it would be very interesting to know what was behind this attack on Apple in China. What was the *real* issue here? My guess is that there's some arm of the Chinese government whose job is to look out for any entity -- particularly foreign entities -- that are becoming too popular and might one day pose some kind of threat (however distant) to the Chinese government. My guess is that somebody in that bureaucracy identified Apple as a threat. TC's letter showed the required deference and so this particular set of bureaucrats can now go bother somebody else.
But TC's letter might have also illustrated that Apple is not the typically naive American company. This is the right way to handle this sort of thing in China. It actually makes Apple stronger, not weaker, because it shows the Chinese government that Apple understands what the bounds are in China and respects them (unlike Google). This could be a very big win for Apple longer term.
A interesting view. I'm still sad TC did not tell China to go f*** themselves, pull out all the manufacturing and contracts and sales and just decide to ignore china, but I guess it would require bigger balls than anyone on Earth can possibly have ^^
And a MUCH smaller brain than a person needs to be able to breathe. Taking your silly suggestion to its logical conclusion Apple would have to pull out not only from China, but from the entire EU, India, Brazil, Australia ... in fact any country that has it's own sovereign laws that don't match the US preconception of how the world should be. Would be great for Samsung though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taniwha
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightknight
Quote:
A interesting view. I'm still sad TC did not tell China to go f*** themselves, pull out all the manufacturing and contracts and sales and just decide to ignore china, but I guess it would require bigger balls than anyone on Earth can possibly have ^^
[...] suggestion to its logical conclusion Apple would have to pull out not only from China, but from the entire EU, India, Brazil, Australia ... in fact any country that has it's own sovereign laws that don't match the US preconception of how the world should be. Would be great for Samsung though.
No I think the countries you mentioned all have free elections and laws similar to the US.
As huge as the Chinese black market is, so long as their citizens are interested in obtaining an iPhone, regardless of whether they were legal to sell there or not, they would probably find a way to acquire one. If they were not obtainable through legal sources, it would make them that much more of a status symbol to own. Might cost triple what we pay in the States but if it makes you look rich and important it is worth it. I have heard that there is some brand of cigarette sold in China that is really, really expensive and even people who don't smoke will buy them and display them on a table in a cafe just to look important. Is that true?
Better suck up to China than North Vietnam like Google did. Look what that has done for world peace.