they also have the cheapest/most affordable rate plans (for which you get an additional $5 off/discount per month) when AUTO-PAY is enabled.
I don't think Virgin Moble USA's cellular footprint reaches France, which is the topic at hand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sidste
I had a cheaper iPhone. It was called the iPhone 4. I sold it for $275 on Amazon. Maybe I should start buying them up and taking them to France.
We should post a sticky or a footnote in every article like this. It should say "While you may think the iPhone 4 and 4s are inexpensive, please note that it's heavily subsidized by US carriers. Not every telecom in the world operates the same way." Just because you can get the iPhone 4 for free in the US doesn't mean you can elsewhere, and most people don't want a 2 year old phone, they want a current model for less cost.
Why would there be an iPhone without Apps? It wouldn't make any sense. The apps are part if the experience. That stripped down phone might a well be a dumb phone.
Agreed, that arguement is pointless. The only way to produce a cheaper iPhone would be to use less expensive materials. It's the only option that I see, anyway.
Why would there be an iPhone without Apps? It wouldn't make any sense. The apps are part if the experience. That stripped down phone might a well be a dumb phone.
I dunno. Why is there an iPod without apps? Or why is there an iPod WITH apps? Why does the 15" MacBook Pro have a discrete graphics card while the 13" doesn't? Why does the larger iMac have user-accessible RAM slots and the smaller one doesn't? Why can you get a 7200RPM 500GB drive in the server version of the Mini but not in the standard version?
Like I said, I don't know why/how/if Apple would implement such a plan... that's not what I'm addressing. I'm saying that precedent for multiple models exists within their current product line. That's all. Speculating on how they would do it, why they would do it, or if they would do it all is pointless.
Steve Jobs died October 5th 2011. The stock price in the days before he died was around 370 a share. Even with the pullback the stock is still 15% higher than it was before his death. Oh and the last quarter of Apple before he died Apple had revenues of 27.28 Billion. The most recent quarter they had revenues of 54.51 Billion. Their profit margins since Steve Jobs' death have been higher than any other quarter before Steve Job's death except the June 2011 quarter surpassing the profit margin of the quarter June 30 2012 by .4%. So basically their stock is higher than it ever was under Jobs, their revenues are higher than they ever were under Jobs (with the most recent quarter having revenues double what they were the last quarter before Jobs' death) and their profit margins have exceeded all quarters but one before Jobs' death. Atrophy my ass. I'd be willing to bet every CEO wishes their company to "implode" by having their revenues double in under 2 years of being on the job and leading the company to be more profitable than it has ever been in its entire history.
Total value of Apple on 9/30/11 = $294 billion
Total value of Apple today = $263 billion
total value = mkt cap less net debt = enterprise value
stock price up, value of company down as they have generated more cash per share than the stock price move, which in simple terms, means value of the underlying business has been diminished
these are facts, not speculation or conjecture. the value of Apple has gone down under two years of Cook simply looking at point A (SJ death) and point B (today)
total value = mkt cap less net debt = enterprise value
stock price up, value of company down as they have generated more cash per share than the stock price move, which in simple terms, means value of the underlying business has been diminished
these are facts, not speculation or conjecture. the value of Apple has gone down under two years of Cook simply looking at point A (SJ death) and point B (today)
Your one data point does not invalidate what I said. Apple has not "imploded" because its mkt cap has gone down 10%. Especially when it's revenues have doubled in under 2 years, it's profit margins are higher than any other point in their history but a single quarter and it's sold more iPhones and iPads every quarter than any point of Steve Jobs at the helm.
Oh and Google's market cap is down nearly 6% since early March. Are they "imploding" too?
Your one data point does not invalidate what I said. Apple has not "imploded" because its mkt cap has gone down 10%. Especially when it's revenues have doubled in under 2 years, it's profit margins are higher than any other point in their history but a single quarter and it's sold more iPhones and iPads every quarter than any point of Steve Jobs at the helm.
Oh and Google's market cap is down nearly 6% since early March. Are they "imploding" too?
I didn't say Apple was 'imploding' but they are facing significant challenges on a fwd looking basis.
Google value over the same timeframe has gone from $127 billion to $219 billion
Samsung from US$86 billion to US$184 billion
The stock market is looking forward and adding value to Google and Samsung and taking value away from Apple. Only time will tell if that is correct, but when your closest peers are seeing value added to their companies and the broader markets are in a bull run like few others recently, sitting near all-time highs, the fact of the matter is the perception is these are Apple specific problems despite all you say. You shouldn't focus on revenues so much as the companies is losing billions of dollars in gross margin through compression, so the revenues aren't turning into cash like they used to. Yes they are selling lots of products, but I think we will soon hear that the momentum is slipping in large iPads and iPhones (remember they are with far more carriers now, so they should be selling more) and unfortunately for shareholders more sales aren't equating into more earnings. Regards
Wait, is France giving up? The "Low cost" iPhone is the 4/4S.
Except that that's maybe true in the US, but here in europe it's price has only gone up in the 2+ years (eg iPhone 4) since its launch and even took away half the capacity. And competitions equal products prices are going down.you can get now 2 similar equipped same sung droids for one iPhone 4.
I didn't say Apple was 'imploding' but they are facing significant challenges on a fwd looking basis.
So then your reply is basically irrelevant to what I was saying. I was responding to the person claiming that Apple was "imploding" yet by every metric but market cap they are outperforming every other technology company. To say they are "imploding" is the height of silliness.
This seems to be also a good argument *against* a low cost iPhone in that they could probably get more marketshare and generate more revenue by simply halving the margin on last years' phone, dropping the price by a hundred or more when bought off-contract, and making it essentially free, on-contract.
For markets that have such contracts I think that's a great way to go, but others — especially for China, India and upcoming African markets — that may not be the best move for maximizing profits long term.
What makes you think there won't be a demand for, and hence a grey market for, and hence caterwauling for, and Apple capitulating to the yelling and screaming for such a phone in the US?
total value = mkt cap less net debt = enterprise value
It really depends on the purpose of such a measurement: why are you measuring the enterprise value? Are you saying that if someone is planning to acquire Apple, they'd need to come up with a check for $263B (and they would pay 'cash' to get the 'cash')? Sure.
But if you're looking at what it's worth to shareholders today, then it is a somewhat pointless number since does not include cash.
Total value of Apple on 9/30/11 = $294 billion
Total value of Apple today = $263 billion
total value = mkt cap less net debt = enterprise value
stock price up, value of company down as they have generated more cash per share than the stock price move, which in simple terms, means value of the underlying business has been diminished
these are facts, not speculation or conjecture. the value of Apple has gone down under two years of Cook simply looking at point A (SJ death) and point B (today)
Your facts are not even close to reality.
As of today, Apple's market cap is $402 B. Total debt is $0 from the balance sheet. That makes the total value $402 B - using your formula.
The only crack in the market right now is if they offered a 4s-size/power phone with LTE (which the carriers would like because 3g is so over-satured that moving a low-end phone to LTE would give them some breathing room, and let them offer "Full line of LTE iPhones", which sounds good.) Combined with a less expensive casing, maybe a less fancy camera, there is probably some room for it.
It might be the 4ls or something like that. The cost of engineering a LTE chip into the 4s probably negates its value long-term. When the iPhone 6 came out, the 4ls would just be let go, replaced with the 5, making it not worth it.
France Telecom CEO says iPhone sales threatened by lack of cheaper option
News flash, Jethro. The hundred thousand people in the US with iPhones on welfare beg to differ.
Originally Posted by allenbf
The only way to produce a cheaper iPhone would be to use less expensive materials. It's the only option that I see, anyway.
Ah, disagreed. Research into both cheaper means of producing the raw components needed and assembly will lower costs (and price) without compromising on material.
That's what they've been doing for years. No multiple pieces of aluminum in their laptops anymore; it's all from one single piece.
News flash, Jethro. The hundred thousand people in the US with iPhones on welfare beg to differ.
Ah, disagreed. Research into both cheaper means of producing the raw components needed and assembly will lower costs (and price) without compromising on material.
That's what they've been doing for years. No multiple pieces of aluminum in their laptops anymore; it's all from one single piece.
Yes, that is true. But the laptop prices didn't come down much did they? I'm honestly asking.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by a2gsg
since last year, you can buy a no-contract 16GB iPhone 4S for $450 retail from http://www.virginmobileusa.com/shop/cell-phones/iphone-phones/ here in the US as well as an 8GB iPhone 4 for $350...
they also have the cheapest/most affordable rate plans (for which you get an additional $5 off/discount per month) when AUTO-PAY is enabled.
I don't think Virgin Moble USA's cellular footprint reaches France, which is the topic at hand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sidste
I had a cheaper iPhone. It was called the iPhone 4. I sold it for $275 on Amazon. Maybe I should start buying them up and taking them to France.
We should post a sticky or a footnote in every article like this. It should say "While you may think the iPhone 4 and 4s are inexpensive, please note that it's heavily subsidized by US carriers. Not every telecom in the world operates the same way." Just because you can get the iPhone 4 for free in the US doesn't mean you can elsewhere, and most people don't want a 2 year old phone, they want a current model for less cost.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark
Why would there be an iPhone without Apps? It wouldn't make any sense. The apps are part if the experience. That stripped down phone might a well be a dumb phone.
Agreed, that arguement is pointless. The only way to produce a cheaper iPhone would be to use less expensive materials. It's the only option that I see, anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark
Why would there be an iPhone without Apps? It wouldn't make any sense. The apps are part if the experience. That stripped down phone might a well be a dumb phone.
I dunno. Why is there an iPod without apps? Or why is there an iPod WITH apps? Why does the 15" MacBook Pro have a discrete graphics card while the 13" doesn't? Why does the larger iMac have user-accessible RAM slots and the smaller one doesn't? Why can you get a 7200RPM 500GB drive in the server version of the Mini but not in the standard version?
Like I said, I don't know why/how/if Apple would implement such a plan... that's not what I'm addressing. I'm saying that precedent for multiple models exists within their current product line. That's all. Speculating on how they would do it, why they would do it, or if they would do it all is pointless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Applelunatic
Steve Jobs died October 5th 2011. The stock price in the days before he died was around 370 a share. Even with the pullback the stock is still 15% higher than it was before his death. Oh and the last quarter of Apple before he died Apple had revenues of 27.28 Billion. The most recent quarter they had revenues of 54.51 Billion. Their profit margins since Steve Jobs' death have been higher than any other quarter before Steve Job's death except the June 2011 quarter surpassing the profit margin of the quarter June 30 2012 by .4%. So basically their stock is higher than it ever was under Jobs, their revenues are higher than they ever were under Jobs (with the most recent quarter having revenues double what they were the last quarter before Jobs' death) and their profit margins have exceeded all quarters but one before Jobs' death. Atrophy my ass. I'd be willing to bet every CEO wishes their company to "implode" by having their revenues double in under 2 years of being on the job and leading the company to be more profitable than it has ever been in its entire history.
Total value of Apple on 9/30/11 = $294 billion
Total value of Apple today = $263 billion
total value = mkt cap less net debt = enterprise value
stock price up, value of company down as they have generated more cash per share than the stock price move, which in simple terms, means value of the underlying business has been diminished
these are facts, not speculation or conjecture. the value of Apple has gone down under two years of Cook simply looking at point A (SJ death) and point B (today)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdnc123
Total value of Apple on 9/30/11 = $294 billion
Total value of Apple today = $263 billion
total value = mkt cap less net debt = enterprise value
stock price up, value of company down as they have generated more cash per share than the stock price move, which in simple terms, means value of the underlying business has been diminished
these are facts, not speculation or conjecture. the value of Apple has gone down under two years of Cook simply looking at point A (SJ death) and point B (today)
Your one data point does not invalidate what I said. Apple has not "imploded" because its mkt cap has gone down 10%. Especially when it's revenues have doubled in under 2 years, it's profit margins are higher than any other point in their history but a single quarter and it's sold more iPhones and iPads every quarter than any point of Steve Jobs at the helm.
Oh and Google's market cap is down nearly 6% since early March. Are they "imploding" too?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Applelunatic
Your one data point does not invalidate what I said. Apple has not "imploded" because its mkt cap has gone down 10%. Especially when it's revenues have doubled in under 2 years, it's profit margins are higher than any other point in their history but a single quarter and it's sold more iPhones and iPads every quarter than any point of Steve Jobs at the helm.
Oh and Google's market cap is down nearly 6% since early March. Are they "imploding" too?
I didn't say Apple was 'imploding' but they are facing significant challenges on a fwd looking basis.
Google value over the same timeframe has gone from $127 billion to $219 billion
Samsung from US$86 billion to US$184 billion
The stock market is looking forward and adding value to Google and Samsung and taking value away from Apple. Only time will tell if that is correct, but when your closest peers are seeing value added to their companies and the broader markets are in a bull run like few others recently, sitting near all-time highs, the fact of the matter is the perception is these are Apple specific problems despite all you say. You shouldn't focus on revenues so much as the companies is losing billions of dollars in gross margin through compression, so the revenues aren't turning into cash like they used to. Yes they are selling lots of products, but I think we will soon hear that the momentum is slipping in large iPads and iPhones (remember they are with far more carriers now, so they should be selling more) and unfortunately for shareholders more sales aren't equating into more earnings. Regards
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdnc123
I didn't say Apple was 'imploding' but they are facing significant challenges on a fwd looking basis.
So then your reply is basically irrelevant to what I was saying. I was responding to the person claiming that Apple was "imploding" yet by every metric but market cap they are outperforming every other technology company. To say they are "imploding" is the height of silliness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee
This seems to be also a good argument *against* a low cost iPhone in that they could probably get more marketshare and generate more revenue by simply halving the margin on last years' phone, dropping the price by a hundred or more when bought off-contract, and making it essentially free, on-contract.
For markets that have such contracts I think that's a great way to go, but others — especially for China, India and upcoming African markets — that may not be the best move for maximizing profits long term.
What makes you think there won't be a demand for, and hence a grey market for, and hence caterwauling for, and Apple capitulating to the yelling and screaming for such a phone in the US?
That could start a major race to the bottom.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdnc123
Total value of Apple on 9/30/11 = $294 billion
Total value of Apple today = $263 billion
total value = mkt cap less net debt = enterprise value
It really depends on the purpose of such a measurement: why are you measuring the enterprise value? Are you saying that if someone is planning to acquire Apple, they'd need to come up with a check for $263B (and they would pay 'cash' to get the 'cash')? Sure.
But if you're looking at what it's worth to shareholders today, then it is a somewhat pointless number since does not include cash.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdnc123
Google value over the same timeframe has gone from $127 billion to $219 billion
Samsung from US$86 billion to US$184 billion
This is true. And problematic.
Got anymore cliches?
Or an opportunity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ankleskater
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram
This is true. And problematic.
Or an opportunity.
Agreed. Apologies.
I should have qualified it with, "...problematic for those whose attention spans and investment horizons rival that of a gnat."
Your facts are not even close to reality.
As of today, Apple's market cap is $402 B. Total debt is $0 from the balance sheet. That makes the total value $402 B - using your formula.
The only crack in the market right now is if they offered a 4s-size/power phone with LTE (which the carriers would like because 3g is so over-satured that moving a low-end phone to LTE would give them some breathing room, and let them offer "Full line of LTE iPhones", which sounds good.) Combined with a less expensive casing, maybe a less fancy camera, there is probably some room for it.
It might be the 4ls or something like that. The cost of engineering a LTE chip into the 4s probably negates its value long-term. When the iPhone 6 came out, the 4ls would just be let go, replaced with the 5, making it not worth it.
France Telecom CEO says iPhone sales threatened by lack of cheaper option
News flash, Jethro. The hundred thousand people in the US with iPhones on welfare beg to differ.
Originally Posted by allenbf
The only way to produce a cheaper iPhone would be to use less expensive materials. It's the only option that I see, anyway.
Ah, disagreed. Research into both cheaper means of producing the raw components needed and assembly will lower costs (and price) without compromising on material.
That's what they've been doing for years. No multiple pieces of aluminum in their laptops anymore; it's all from one single piece.
Yes, that is true. But the laptop prices didn't come down much did they? I'm honestly asking.
Originally Posted by allenbf
Yes, that is true. But the laptop prices didn't come down much did they? I'm honestly asking.
Yes, by $300.
Penryn pre-unibody started at $1,999.
Unibody started at $1,699.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Yes, by $300.
Penryn pre-unibody started at $1,999.
Unibody started at $1,699.
Ah ok. Didn't realize that