Amazon and eBay do not have my phone number as it is not required for a credit card transaction.
Are you sure? Amazon has the phone numbers of myself and everyone else in my address book. Perhaps you're not a Prime member and/or have never used one or two day delivery?
Anyway, Google doesn't give out anyone's phone number or credit info. Just name, email and city.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][
I don't want all of my info going to some hacker group in China, just because I decided to buy a 99 cent app.
Then what the heck were you thinking, downloading iOS apps for years before Apple belatedly decided to add Contact info permissions. Many studies have stated that iOS apps leak more personal info than Android apps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by genovelle
There is a big difference in this sharing. For instance eBay has a system in place to protect against fraud.
Heh. I'm pretty sure I've gotten more spam from eBay dealers whom I've talked to via email, than from almost anywhere else. That's why I keep a spare email address just for eBay.
Here's one well known iOS developer's viewpoint praising the Google info. (His company is just down the highway from me.)
For myself, I didn't like finding out that Google gave them my standard email address. I'd have liked to have known about this beforehand, just so I could give a different contact email, like I do with eBay/etc. Then I'd be okay with it.
you obviously are note involved with the advertising business. While you piled in a bunch of bullet points in a big scary looking list (most of it false), you of course fail to mention details of what data aggregators have. Your list is nothing and superficial. Like i said, this is _nothing_ compared to what credit card companies have, let alone Facebook.
Educated yourself before you make more of a fool of yourself.
If it's a purchase in iBooks I believe Apple might be sharing your contact information with the developer. Wasn't that one of the concessions Apple made for the magazine/newspaper publishers?
In general tho Apple and Google look at the developer's differently. In Google Play a paying customer is not Google's, it's the developer's. At Apple they keep the customer's to themselves as a rule, with iBooks being at least one exception.
It is different if it is a publisher or newspaper. I subscribe to the paper version of the info, I'll give them the contact info. For smaller companies, I don't know if they will be dealing with my contact info the same way.
Google has effectively compromised the independence of most all of the major consumer groups and supposed accountability watchdogs in Washington with:
Free advertising through Google Grants: "Google Grants has awarded AdWords advertising to hundreds of non-profit groups";
Generous intern or fellowship programs; and
Generous financial support of liberal grass-roots organizations and their pet issues like net neutrality
The "media reform" movement run by "FreePress / Stop Big Media" has been coopted by Google as its chief corporate ally, so that while it rails against offline media consolidation, which is heavily restricted in law and regulation, they are impotent and de-fanged on the unprecedented consolidation of online media that Google has already accomplished on the Internet.
It is the height of irony that in opposing offline media gatekeepers, they have enabled the ultimate online gatekeeper, Google, to consolidate effective and unprecendented gatekeeper control over online content -- the content of the future! This media reform community is so badly compromised and conflicted that they refuse to acknowlege that they have essentially "looked the other way" while Google has concentrated more "big" corporate power over online media than ever could have been achieved in the offline world.
Furthermore, most of the blogging community has a financial conflict of interest in covering Google, because Google is the blogosphere's primary source of compensation and monetization. This tends to make many of them cheerleaders for Google.
Tin Foil much? Any facts to back up your fantasy rant? Or just baseless accusations?
you obviously are note involved with the advertising business. While you piled in a bunch of bullet points in a big scary looking list (most of it false), you of course fail to mention details of what data aggregators have. Your list is nothing and superficial. Like i said, this is _nothing_ compared to what credit card companies have, let alone Facebook.
Educated yourself before you make more of a fool of yourself.
You could do the research yourself but are obviously too lazy. Too lazy to provide a real argument and too lazy to do the research.
Where is your argument? You have none. You only have empty comments. You made the initial claim and I responded. You haven't provided even a single drop of evidence to support your spurious claims.
Fortunately, I no longer need to listen to your absurdity much like the multitudes of trolls here.
I think it is interesting that Google doesn't really police Google Play. Google Play has many of the same restrictions that the Apple App Store has but doesn't appear to follow their own guidelines.
With Deep Packet Inspection technology, Google can monitor absolutely everything.
"Free Internet?" Sure it is.
I'm still looking forward to your list of data collected by Apple and what services they use to gather it. No doubt it's a very short list compared to the one you did for Google.
I'm still looking forward to your list of data collected by Apple and what services they use to gather it. No doubt it's a very short list compared to the one you did for Google.
Apple? I thought we were talking about Microsoft and The Exalted Google.
Here's one well known iOS developer's viewpoint praising the Google info. (His company is just down the highway from me.)
Where did you did that useless (and highly biased) article from? Is it on your bookmarks folder of "articles to twist the truth around when posting on Apple forums"?
First off, he's lying. This has not been the policy for 4 years - there were significant changes that occurred since October 2012. Yet he fails to mention this. How could someone who has products in Google Play not be aware of this?
He then goes on to make a big deal about refunds and how Google Play allows refunds. Sorry, but getting refunds is a non-issue. And it's certainly less of an issue than having your real, primary e-mail address shared with someone you don't know.
And I wonder, does this apply to free apps on Google also?
If I were a scammer, that's exactly what I would do. I would make some quick, free, crappy Android app that would look interesting enough so that millions of Android users would download it. Google, my partner in crime, would hand over all of the info of those millions of users to me, and then I would get busy with my real scheme.
So you're in a position with an app that has exposure to millions of users, and instead of simply adding an ad to generate significant revenue, you're going to try to scam with nothing more than a name, zip code, and email address. Maybe a Nigerian 419 email scam? Who knew it was so easy to get an app with millions of downloads! /s
You do know they sell the exact same information on bulk marketing lists for a few hundred buck,right??? Talk about a brilliant plan.... /s
This is just the disclosed information that Google legally gathers from users of a few of Google's most popular services. Google has many more services including many for which they do not provide disclosure.
Apple likewise collects a lot of personal info, especially via iTunes. They have our credit card info, what music we like to buy, what videos, what apps we searched for, downloaded and deleted.
We already know that Apple's servers scan email looking for spam and topics like "Barely legal teens" to delete.
Apple's privacy policies are almost exactly the same as Google. They share only when necessary, and they consider aggregate data to be non-personal. Just like Google, they offer advertisers anonymous ad slots based on the info they have about us:
Most days I like targeted ads, but it's understandable if people do not.
So I think that every company should be required to have a website page with a big fat red button that you can click to erase every piece of info about you, all at once. (Or maybe two... one for history items, and one for personal billing info.)
Google, at least, has a dashboard where you can drill down and delete most info they've collected about / from you, and your ad categories. Apple, as far as I know, has nothing similar.
Apple? I thought we were talking about Microsoft and The Exalted Google.
I thought I'd let him start with one that would really highlight the differences. I suspect Microsoft's list of data collection would be pretty similar to Google's.
You do know they sell the exact same information on bulk marketing lists for a few hundred buck,right??? Talk about a brilliant plan.... /s
And guess what, my name and my info has much less of a chance of ending up on such a list, because I typically avoid shady sites and questionable services, unlike most people.
I even read recently that the IRS is collecting info from Facebook and Twitter now. Good luck to all of the Facebook users out there, and to all of the Android users and other people out there who simply don't value or care about their own privacy or security.
A very thorough list MacBook Pro. Nicely done. I realize it may take a few minutes but can you do a similar one for Apple for comparison purposes?
Even if Apple has a similar set of data on you it's really an Apples and oranges comparison.
Apple acts as a traditional retailer. You buy from Apple not the app developer. Only Apple sees your personal data.
Google considers itself an intermediary to a transaction between customers and developers. You are buying directly from a developer, but that developer has outsourced payment processing to Google. Both Google and the developer see your personal data.
Apple generates income from hardware sales and commissions on sales through its iTunes and App stores.
Google generates income from selling advertising and customer demographics to support advertising.
Apple gathers data and keeps it to itself.
Google gathers data and sells it.
I know which company I'd rather have tracking my every move.
I'm still looking forward to your list of data collected by Apple and what services they use to gather it. No doubt it's a very short list compared to the one you did for Google.
Dear GG,
I feel you like this spinning around, smoke screen playing.
If you want a list of what Apple knows about it's customers than open your iTunes account and look what information is necessary there.
Additional information Apple holds is your purchasing history and if you agree anonymous device diagnostics and iAd data. For both you there's comparable easy way to opt out. In addition there are system preferences to limit tracking the educated user can adjust.
Apple doesn't even share subscription data. That's a main reason beside the 30 % cut e.g. newspapers have fought the Apple subscription model. In this case Apple clearly puts the user privacy in front of possible profits. All these points can be examined in the corresponding GTC documents of the services.
Now to your smoke screen arguments.
You like to compare buying apps at Google play to Amazon and Ebay purchases.
I did some purchases lately from 3rd party resellers and guess what? Both companies suppress sensitive data like my email address and phone number. Communication is in both cases done through the store. What the sellers get's is my shipping address and if I choose bank transfer they might get my banking account.
In short only the data necessary for the transaction is exposed and I can choose to cancel the transaction in the case I don't feel comfortable with it.
Even if sharing the data on free apps is just an oversight the point of Macbook Pro still stands that there is often a lot of unnecessary data shared.
As an Apple dev you don't have access to this data through iTunes connect.
I have just checked that I have downloaded about 750 iOS and 50 Mac apps from about 500 different devs over the years.
If would use Google play now 500 persons or companies would have my communication data.
You can say what you want, but I don't feel comfortable with this, because defending privacy and preventing financial fraud starts with controlling your data and reducing the amount revealed to a necessary minimum.
Google doesn't even effectively curate it's store which means that they don't take the effort to check whether the app dev is trustworthy. A fraudulent dev doesn't even have to put malicious code in his apps. He / she can simply collect thousands of addresses and sell them to spammers or start his own targeted phishing attack with a minimum risk to get caught because those addresses were legally obtained.
It's OK to defend Google's way, but please stop trying to spin around it's shortcomings.
BTW: iAds are also highly targeted but I think that even on advertising the privacy settings are very thoughtful.
I know that Google isn't directly selling private user data (would be silly because 3rd parties reselling it would drive the value down).
My complain is that because data collection is a main pillar of their business they are way to lax on everybody willing to abuse it.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell
Amazon and eBay do not have my phone number as it is not required for a credit card transaction.
Are you sure? Amazon has the phone numbers of myself and everyone else in my address book. Perhaps you're not a Prime member and/or have never used one or two day delivery?
Anyway, Google doesn't give out anyone's phone number or credit info. Just name, email and city.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][
I don't want all of my info going to some hacker group in China, just because I decided to buy a 99 cent app.
Then what the heck were you thinking, downloading iOS apps for years before Apple belatedly decided to add Contact info permissions. Many studies have stated that iOS apps leak more personal info than Android apps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by genovelle
There is a big difference in this sharing. For instance eBay has a system in place to protect against fraud.
Heh. I'm pretty sure I've gotten more spam from eBay dealers whom I've talked to via email, than from almost anywhere else. That's why I keep a spare email address just for eBay.
Here's one well known iOS developer's viewpoint praising the Google info. (His company is just down the highway from me.)
For myself, I didn't like finding out that Google gave them my standard email address. I'd have liked to have known about this beforehand, just so I could give a different contact email, like I do with eBay/etc. Then I'd be okay with it.
Originally Posted by MacBook Pro
[post]
you obviously are note involved with the advertising business. While you piled in a bunch of bullet points in a big scary looking list (most of it false), you of course fail to mention details of what data aggregators have. Your list is nothing and superficial. Like i said, this is _nothing_ compared to what credit card companies have, let alone Facebook.
Educated yourself before you make more of a fool of yourself.
With Deep Packet Inspection technology, Google can monitor absolutely everything.
"Free Internet?" Sure it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy
If it's a purchase in iBooks I believe Apple might be sharing your contact information with the developer. Wasn't that one of the concessions Apple made for the magazine/newspaper publishers?
In general tho Apple and Google look at the developer's differently. In Google Play a paying customer is not Google's, it's the developer's. At Apple they keep the customer's to themselves as a rule, with iBooks being at least one exception.
It is different if it is a publisher or newspaper. I subscribe to the paper version of the info, I'll give them the contact info. For smaller companies, I don't know if they will be dealing with my contact info the same way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacBook Pro
Google has effectively compromised the independence of most all of the major consumer groups and supposed accountability watchdogs in Washington with:
Free advertising through Google Grants: "Google Grants has awarded AdWords advertising to hundreds of non-profit groups";
Generous intern or fellowship programs; and
Generous financial support of liberal grass-roots organizations and their pet issues like net neutrality
The "media reform" movement run by "FreePress / Stop Big Media" has been coopted by Google as its chief corporate ally, so that while it rails against offline media consolidation, which is heavily restricted in law and regulation, they are impotent and de-fanged on the unprecedented consolidation of online media that Google has already accomplished on the Internet.
It is the height of irony that in opposing offline media gatekeepers, they have enabled the ultimate online gatekeeper, Google, to consolidate effective and unprecendented gatekeeper control over online content -- the content of the future! This media reform community is so badly compromised and conflicted that they refuse to acknowlege that they have essentially "looked the other way" while Google has concentrated more "big" corporate power over online media than ever could have been achieved in the offline world.
Furthermore, most of the blogging community has a financial conflict of interest in covering Google, because Google is the blogosphere's primary source of compensation and monetization. This tends to make many of them cheerleaders for Google.
Tin Foil much? Any facts to back up your fantasy rant? Or just baseless accusations?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacBook Pro
An interesting consideration is Google Fiber.
With Deep Packet Inspection technology, Google can monitor absolutely everything.
"Free Internet?" Sure it is.
LOL. Did Google kick your doggie? More tin foil hats? Offer some proof?
You could do the research yourself but are obviously too lazy. Too lazy to provide a real argument and too lazy to do the research.
Where is your argument? You have none. You only have empty comments. You made the initial claim and I responded. You haven't provided even a single drop of evidence to support your spurious claims.
Fortunately, I no longer need to listen to your absurdity much like the multitudes of trolls here.
http://techcrunch.com/2013/04/08/nearly-60k-low-quality-apps-booted-from-google-play-store-in-february-points-to-increased-spam-fighting/
I'm still looking forward to your list of data collected by Apple and what services they use to gather it. No doubt it's a very short list compared to the one you did for Google.
Exactly. Microsoft is jealous that it is not the Not-Apple in this market.
Apple? I thought we were talking about Microsoft and The Exalted Google.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KDarling
Here's one well known iOS developer's viewpoint praising the Google info. (His company is just down the highway from me.)
Where did you did that useless (and highly biased) article from? Is it on your bookmarks folder of "articles to twist the truth around when posting on Apple forums"?
First off, he's lying. This has not been the policy for 4 years - there were significant changes that occurred since October 2012. Yet he fails to mention this. How could someone who has products in Google Play not be aware of this?
He then goes on to make a big deal about refunds and how Google Play allows refunds. Sorry, but getting refunds is a non-issue. And it's certainly less of an issue than having your real, primary e-mail address shared with someone you don't know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][
And I wonder, does this apply to free apps on Google also?
If I were a scammer, that's exactly what I would do. I would make some quick, free, crappy Android app that would look interesting enough so that millions of Android users would download it. Google, my partner in crime, would hand over all of the info of those millions of users to me, and then I would get busy with my real scheme.
So you're in a position with an app that has exposure to millions of users, and instead of simply adding an ad to generate significant revenue, you're going to try to scam with nothing more than a name, zip code, and email address. Maybe a Nigerian 419 email scam? Who knew it was so easy to get an app with millions of downloads! /s
You do know they sell the exact same information on bulk marketing lists for a few hundred buck,right??? Talk about a brilliant plan.... /s
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacBook Pro
This is just the disclosed information that Google legally gathers from users of a few of Google's most popular services. Google has many more services including many for which they do not provide disclosure.
Apple likewise collects a lot of personal info, especially via iTunes. They have our credit card info, what music we like to buy, what videos, what apps we searched for, downloaded and deleted.
We already know that Apple's servers scan email looking for spam and topics like "Barely legal teens" to delete.
Apple's privacy policies are almost exactly the same as Google. They share only when necessary, and they consider aggregate data to be non-personal. Just like Google, they offer advertisers anonymous ad slots based on the info they have about us:
Most days I like targeted ads, but it's understandable if people do not.
So I think that every company should be required to have a website page with a big fat red button that you can click to erase every piece of info about you, all at once. (Or maybe two... one for history items, and one for personal billing info.)
Google, at least, has a dashboard where you can drill down and delete most info they've collected about / from you, and your ad categories. Apple, as far as I know, has nothing similar.
deleted
I thought I'd let him start with one that would really highlight the differences. I suspect Microsoft's list of data collection would be pretty similar to Google's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by e_veritas
You do know they sell the exact same information on bulk marketing lists for a few hundred buck,right??? Talk about a brilliant plan.... /s
And guess what, my name and my info has much less of a chance of ending up on such a list, because I typically avoid shady sites and questionable services, unlike most people.
I even read recently that the IRS is collecting info from Facebook and Twitter now. Good luck to all of the Facebook users out there, and to all of the Android users and other people out there who simply don't value or care about their own privacy or security.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy
A very thorough list MacBook Pro. Nicely done. I realize it may take a few minutes but can you do a similar one for Apple for comparison purposes?
Even if Apple has a similar set of data on you it's really an Apples and oranges comparison.
Apple acts as a traditional retailer. You buy from Apple not the app developer. Only Apple sees your personal data.
Google considers itself an intermediary to a transaction between customers and developers. You are buying directly from a developer, but that developer has outsourced payment processing to Google. Both Google and the developer see your personal data.
Apple generates income from hardware sales and commissions on sales through its iTunes and App stores.
Google generates income from selling advertising and customer demographics to support advertising.
Apple gathers data and keeps it to itself.
Google gathers data and sells it.
I know which company I'd rather have tracking my every move.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy
I'm still looking forward to your list of data collected by Apple and what services they use to gather it. No doubt it's a very short list compared to the one you did for Google.
Dear GG,
I feel you like this spinning around, smoke screen playing.
If you want a list of what Apple knows about it's customers than open your iTunes account and look what information is necessary there.
Additional information Apple holds is your purchasing history and if you agree anonymous device diagnostics and iAd data. For both you there's comparable easy way to opt out. In addition there are system preferences to limit tracking the educated user can adjust.
Apple doesn't even share subscription data. That's a main reason beside the 30 % cut e.g. newspapers have fought the Apple subscription model. In this case Apple clearly puts the user privacy in front of possible profits. All these points can be examined in the corresponding GTC documents of the services.
Now to your smoke screen arguments.
You like to compare buying apps at Google play to Amazon and Ebay purchases.
I did some purchases lately from 3rd party resellers and guess what? Both companies suppress sensitive data like my email address and phone number. Communication is in both cases done through the store. What the sellers get's is my shipping address and if I choose bank transfer they might get my banking account.
In short only the data necessary for the transaction is exposed and I can choose to cancel the transaction in the case I don't feel comfortable with it.
And now compare this to Google's way:
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130213/09394921962/google-play-flaw-gives-app-developers-purchasers-information.shtml
Even if sharing the data on free apps is just an oversight the point of Macbook Pro still stands that there is often a lot of unnecessary data shared.
As an Apple dev you don't have access to this data through iTunes connect.
I have just checked that I have downloaded about 750 iOS and 50 Mac apps from about 500 different devs over the years.
If would use Google play now 500 persons or companies would have my communication data.
You can say what you want, but I don't feel comfortable with this, because defending privacy and preventing financial fraud starts with controlling your data and reducing the amount revealed to a necessary minimum.
Google doesn't even effectively curate it's store which means that they don't take the effort to check whether the app dev is trustworthy. A fraudulent dev doesn't even have to put malicious code in his apps. He / she can simply collect thousands of addresses and sell them to spammers or start his own targeted phishing attack with a minimum risk to get caught because those addresses were legally obtained.
It's OK to defend Google's way, but please stop trying to spin around it's shortcomings.
BTW: iAds are also highly targeted but I think that even on advertising the privacy settings are very thoughtful.
I know that Google isn't directly selling private user data (would be silly because 3rd parties reselling it would drive the value down).
My complain is that because data collection is a main pillar of their business they are way to lax on everybody willing to abuse it.