By using a word like "dramatic changes" I hope they mean a lot more than just a few apps like mail and calendar. There are a tons of features lacking in iOS 6 I would like to see added or changed. Just google a top 100 wish list for examples of some great ideas. More control in notification center, a shortcut to settings, an alternate choices for password lock on phone, maybe an auto-update option for some apps where we can choose to allow iOS to update it automatically if we choose, more keyboard choices especially for people who have to use multiple languages or might prefer Swype for example which is fantastic are just a few examples I think could be improved. Being able to delete news stand which I never use would also be nice along with setting default apps. There are a lot ways they could improve iOS and make it even easier to use.
I like Ives but am also cautious about his minimalist approach which sometimes goes too far in terms of form over functionality. I don't know if it was his decision on not to remove the last remaining bit of color from the OS X finder with that all grey look but I didn't care for it at all. Luckily a free app called Side effects brought back colored icons to my finder.
I think OS X has learned enough from iOS and would like to see that trend reverse and iOS take a few cues from his big brother. Smart phones really are becoming full fledged computers and a spotlight search result with sort options by date downloaded, app type, size,how often used for example would be a nice addition.
By using a word like "dramatic changes" I hope they mean a lot more than just a few apps like mail and calendar.
From what I've read it goes beyond just those things. Further there are changes at all levels, UI (look/feel), functionality and architecture.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwmac
I don't know if it was his decision on not to remove the last remaining bit of color from the OS X finder with that all grey look but I didn't care for it at all.
Doubtful since he only recently became involved with UI at Apple.
ANYONE could have told ANY journalist this kind of educated guess.
Will iOS stay the same forever? Obviously not. We know Ives is in charge of design now.
Will Mail and Maps be excluded from any changes? Obviously not.
Is iOS 7 when we'll see such changes begin? Obviously so.
I don't need a "source" to get ad views off that stuff.
And "agreeing with earlier reports" (meaning "rumors") is not confirmation or added credibility. ANYONE can repeat what was already said.
P.S. Ives likes rounded corners, and Apple hardware is full of circular-radius corners. That right there should keep iOS 7 from looking just like other UIs. (Plus, of course, Metro isn't that great for usability/discoverability, cool though it is. How something WORKS is part of design too.)
It's Ive, not Ives. Sorry, I just couldn't take it anymore
or this definition which applies well to what Apple has done too much in iOS :
Quote:
an element of design or structure that serves little or no purpose in the artifact fashioned from the new material but was essential to the object made from the original material
So :
red yes
green no
A button is some kind of skeuomorph, but it retains a utility. It can become unnecessary if the icon that was on the button can be used in its stead, just like with the play button of iTunes.
Small amounts of texture are fine. If the notes app were to forgo all skeumorphism it would look like TextEdit.
Lines are not necessarily skeuoamorphic. Forcing the font to be Helvetia isn't skeuoamorphic. Getting rid of the ugly brown toolbar is just a damn good idea. I'd like Notes to look a little like a digital white notepad that isn't trying too hard to pretend to be paper. And I'd like a new white icon to match. And better sync. The way Notes syncs currently is like nails down a chalkboard. And landscape video on iPad is a pain to look at. I'd love a wide view of the currently viewed note in landscape.
Logic and reason don't matter, if you'll read the rest of his post.
Wow. Obviously you've never been introduced to truly useful software, nor are you even a beginning user. Please, stop the genuflection, and get with the Use Cases that would make iOS products better.
I huge gripe for me is that the toggle buttons in the Settings app are a real pain to use. I don't think it's just my monster hands. It is very difficult to slide the toggle over and back smoothly and reliably. I'm not sure if they need larger buttons or simply need to work on the code. Netflix's larger red volume buttons in their iOS apps work quite well in terms of being sufficiently-large touch targets and feeling very responsive to toggling.
Removing Skeumorphism rather than adding it should be easy enough - in many cases it just means using standard API rather than sub classing and rolling your own. Going the other way is harder.
Except the standard API as it exists will be no more. They're creating a new standard and that's not saying every Apple app will use it - I doubt they will. This is nail biting stuff, thinking about it.
Well, we are all anonymous though so how would you know? I have a degree in Industrial Design, but you may or may not believe me and no one seems to listen to me when I post about design issues anyway. :)
And Jobs never finished college. So technically he had no degrees and never studied design. He took a calligraphy class for a little bit, but that's just to plush out his bio and sound like that's what inspired the Mac.
Having the notification pane accessible with a swipe from the side makes much more sense imo. The implementation on the BB10 is very good. Top swipe might be used for settings.
The side swipe idea makes me cringe. And I love that notifications come down from the top. I think the simplest and best solution is to incorporate a small settings panel into the top of a redesigned notifications panel, but I'm sure Jony and co will come up with something even nicer. Obviously side swipes would interfere with the switching home screens gesture and with that in mind are even conceptually confusing.
You are right, it's not astonishing, but it's still incorrect. A lot of people still don't understand what a skeuomorph actuallly is :
or this definition which applies well to what Apple has done too much in iOS :
So :
red yes
green no
A button is some kind of skeuomorph, but it retains a utility. It can become unnecessary if the icon that was on the button can be used in its stead, just like with the play button of iTunes.
With all due respect, this is veering totally off track. The issue isn't about use of skeumorphs or not. It never truly was. It has been a total red herring that is really really unimportant in the redesign of iOS UI. The redesign is necessary more because there is a need for (a) unification (from one app to another, there is no single design language), (b) refresh (iOS is 6 years old), (c) enhancement of features and gestures.
No one here truly misunderstands skeuomorph because it is possible for this to mean something different to everyone. Stop using "understanding" and "definition" of terminology as a means to trump each other. Sounding superior to faceless individuals is not that important, is it?
I like the fact they have an actual visual designer in charge and not a programmer of the UI. Granted Ivy is a industrial designer and not a graphic designer, but still a designer none-the-less.
On a different note, I don't see anyone criticizing the article for rigorous citation of truly reliable sources. Hmmm ... double standard? Nah ... this place is a model of rigorous debate. Who am I to question anything?
The original Bloomberg article is one of worst thing I've read in years. It seems like it was written by a total Luddite. A stock manipulating, Wall St. loving, clueless, link bating Luddite.
I like the fact they have an actual visual designer in charge and not a programmer of the UI. Granted Ivy is a industrial designer and not a graphic designer, but still a designer none-the-less.
Yes, they need someone unconcerned with the amount of effort it takes to do something so they don't compromise their vision of simplicity and usability. I know how that works. For example, an engineer might restrict their suggestions to solutions that are tried and true and not think outside their area of experience.
Did somebody get up on the wrong side of the bed?
Bull crap! IOS lag their desktop counterparts in features often significantly. To argue otherwise just indicates that your use of those apps is trivial at best.
Arguing against the obvious is hardly a sign that one grasps logic and reason. I regularly have to resort to my Mac to deal with documents that can't be handled in the way I want to on my iPad. This directly due to features that have been missing for ages. Sadly some of the new Mac counterpart apps, to iOS apps, are even more functional.
Frankly I have to wonder if you even make use of the iOS apps beyond the most trivial interaction.
Criticising Apple no a Tallest Skil like. No matter what point you may be making.
With all due respect, this is veering totally off track. The issue isn't about use of skeumorphs or not. It never truly was. It has been a total red herring that is really really unimportant in the redesign of iOS UI. The redesign is necessary more because there is a need for (a) unification (from one app to another, there is no single design language), (b) refresh (iOS is 6 years old), (c) enhancement of features and gestures.
No one here truly misunderstands skeuomorph because it is possible for this to mean something different to everyone. Stop using "understanding" and "definition" of terminology as a means to trump each other. Sounding superior to faceless individuals is not that important, is it?
I am looking forward to what Ive brings. IMO it can't be worse than what IOS is today bearing in mind his design pedigree. I look forward to less use of skeuomorphic elements and a 'flattening' of the design generally. People who fear there will be no more colors, no more buttons, no more references to 'real' objects should not worry. Having said that - usability and design is an iterative process and the appreciation of the same is in a permanent state of progression or at least, flux. I am sure there will be niggles and issues, but generally Apple reduces those to a minimum so I am pretty confident the result will be worthwhile.
It's amazing how far some people here have their head buried in the sand right? Apple makes some amazing products, but nothing is 100% perfect. There shouldn't be anything wrong with us discussing some shortcomings and mistakes without being bashed. Now I agree the line between good criticism, complaining, and trolling is not always clear, but nearly everything negative gets called trolling. There's ALWAYS room for improvement in software and products.
iOS is the most elegant mobile operating system, by far!!! But I could tell you loads of things I'd like to see changed and improved about it.
Why would you be nervous? It is a computing platform nothing more.
Nothing more? It's the phone, the tablet and the computer I use every day. Same for him. It totally affects my life. If it has great features that work with me and sync and move effortlessly with my across a range of devices than my life is easier and happier. Might sound sad, but it's true. The devices are powerful tools, and the easier, more powerful and useful and elegant they become, the easier and more efficient we can get things done.
...The problems with Maps had nothing to do with any of this... the problems were bad data.
Yeah.. Agreed. But there's also terrible design elements in Maps (which is unrelated to the bad data). It's really hard to see white roads on pale beige(ish) backgrounds with grey(ish) smoothened lines on a retina display. Bad design for a map. It's in need of sharpness, contrast and more defined outlines and surfaces. Perhaps Mr Ive is the right guy for this task.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelligent
"Astonishingly" incorrect? A bit over the top, kind of like his statement itself?
Nope. Thanks.
P.S. Unless you mean to say that I should not be astonished by how incorrect he is.
By using a word like "dramatic changes" I hope they mean a lot more than just a few apps like mail and calendar. There are a tons of features lacking in iOS 6 I would like to see added or changed. Just google a top 100 wish list for examples of some great ideas. More control in notification center, a shortcut to settings, an alternate choices for password lock on phone, maybe an auto-update option for some apps where we can choose to allow iOS to update it automatically if we choose, more keyboard choices especially for people who have to use multiple languages or might prefer Swype for example which is fantastic are just a few examples I think could be improved. Being able to delete news stand which I never use would also be nice along with setting default apps. There are a lot ways they could improve iOS and make it even easier to use.
I like Ives but am also cautious about his minimalist approach which sometimes goes too far in terms of form over functionality. I don't know if it was his decision on not to remove the last remaining bit of color from the OS X finder with that all grey look but I didn't care for it at all. Luckily a free app called Side effects brought back colored icons to my finder.
I think OS X has learned enough from iOS and would like to see that trend reverse and iOS take a few cues from his big brother. Smart phones really are becoming full fledged computers and a spotlight search result with sort options by date downloaded, app type, size,how often used for example would be a nice addition.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwmac
By using a word like "dramatic changes" I hope they mean a lot more than just a few apps like mail and calendar.
From what I've read it goes beyond just those things. Further there are changes at all levels, UI (look/feel), functionality and architecture.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwmac
I don't know if it was his decision on not to remove the last remaining bit of color from the OS X finder with that all grey look but I didn't care for it at all.
Doubtful since he only recently became involved with UI at Apple.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nagromme
ANYONE could have told ANY journalist this kind of educated guess.
Will iOS stay the same forever? Obviously not. We know Ives is in charge of design now.
Will Mail and Maps be excluded from any changes? Obviously not.
Is iOS 7 when we'll see such changes begin? Obviously so.
I don't need a "source" to get ad views off that stuff.
And "agreeing with earlier reports" (meaning "rumors") is not confirmation or added credibility. ANYONE can repeat what was already said.
P.S. Ives likes rounded corners, and Apple hardware is full of circular-radius corners. That right there should keep iOS 7 from looking just like other UIs. (Plus, of course, Metro isn't that great for usability/discoverability, cool though it is. How something WORKS is part of design too.)
It's Ive, not Ives. Sorry, I just couldn't take it anymore
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelligent
"Astonishingly" incorrect? A bit over the top, kind of like his statement itself?
You are right, it's not astonishing, but it's still incorrect. A lot of people still don't understand what a skeuomorph actuallly is :
Quote:
an ornament or design on an object copied from a form of the object when made from another materialor by other techniques, as an imitation metal rivet mark found on handles of prehistoric pottery.
or this definition which applies well to what Apple has done too much in iOS :
Quote:
an element of design or structure that serves little or no purpose in the artifact fashioned from the new material but was essential to the object made from the original material
So :
red yes
green no
A button is some kind of skeuomorph, but it retains a utility. It can become unnecessary if the icon that was on the button can be used in its stead, just like with the play button of iTunes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Except they do. Stop lying.
Nowhere has that been said.
Enjoy your fantasy world. Rules #12, 15, & 16.
So I guess you've never used iBooks at all, huh?
Logic and reason don't matter, if you'll read the rest of his post.
Wow. Obviously you've never been introduced to truly useful software, nor are you even a beginning user. Please, stop the genuflection, and get with the Use Cases that would make iOS products better.
I huge gripe for me is that the toggle buttons in the Settings app are a real pain to use. I don't think it's just my monster hands. It is very difficult to slide the toggle over and back smoothly and reliably. I'm not sure if they need larger buttons or simply need to work on the code. Netflix's larger red volume buttons in their iOS apps work quite well in terms of being sufficiently-large touch targets and feeling very responsive to toggling.
Except the standard API as it exists will be no more. They're creating a new standard and that's not saying every Apple app will use it - I doubt they will. This is nail biting stuff, thinking about it.
And Jobs never finished college. So technically he had no degrees and never studied design. He took a calligraphy class for a little bit, but that's just to plush out his bio and sound like that's what inspired the Mac.
The side swipe idea makes me cringe. And I love that notifications come down from the top. I think the simplest and best solution is to incorporate a small settings panel into the top of a redesigned notifications panel, but I'm sure Jony and co will come up with something even nicer. Obviously side swipes would interfere with the switching home screens gesture and with that in mind are even conceptually confusing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClemyNX
You are right, it's not astonishing, but it's still incorrect. A lot of people still don't understand what a skeuomorph actuallly is :
or this definition which applies well to what Apple has done too much in iOS :
So :
red yes
green no
A button is some kind of skeuomorph, but it retains a utility. It can become unnecessary if the icon that was on the button can be used in its stead, just like with the play button of iTunes.
With all due respect, this is veering totally off track. The issue isn't about use of skeumorphs or not. It never truly was. It has been a total red herring that is really really unimportant in the redesign of iOS UI. The redesign is necessary more because there is a need for (a) unification (from one app to another, there is no single design language), (b) refresh (iOS is 6 years old), (c) enhancement of features and gestures.
No one here truly misunderstands skeuomorph because it is possible for this to mean something different to everyone. Stop using "understanding" and "definition" of terminology as a means to trump each other. Sounding superior to faceless individuals is not that important, is it?
The original Bloomberg article is one of worst thing I've read in years. It seems like it was written by a total Luddite. A stock manipulating, Wall St. loving, clueless, link bating Luddite.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypoluxa
I like the fact they have an actual visual designer in charge and not a programmer of the UI. Granted Ivy is a industrial designer and not a graphic designer, but still a designer none-the-less.
Yes, they need someone unconcerned with the amount of effort it takes to do something so they don't compromise their vision of simplicity and usability. I know how that works. For example, an engineer might restrict their suggestions to solutions that are tried and true and not think outside their area of experience.
Criticising Apple no a Tallest Skil like. No matter what point you may be making.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelligent
With all due respect, this is veering totally off track. The issue isn't about use of skeumorphs or not. It never truly was. It has been a total red herring that is really really unimportant in the redesign of iOS UI. The redesign is necessary more because there is a need for (a) unification (from one app to another, there is no single design language), (b) refresh (iOS is 6 years old), (c) enhancement of features and gestures.
No one here truly misunderstands skeuomorph because it is possible for this to mean something different to everyone. Stop using "understanding" and "definition" of terminology as a means to trump each other. Sounding superior to faceless individuals is not that important, is it?
I am looking forward to what Ive brings. IMO it can't be worse than what IOS is today bearing in mind his design pedigree. I look forward to less use of skeuomorphic elements and a 'flattening' of the design generally. People who fear there will be no more colors, no more buttons, no more references to 'real' objects should not worry. Having said that - usability and design is an iterative process and the appreciation of the same is in a permanent state of progression or at least, flux. I am sure there will be niggles and issues, but generally Apple reduces those to a minimum so I am pretty confident the result will be worthwhile.
Nothing more? It's the phone, the tablet and the computer I use every day. Same for him. It totally affects my life. If it has great features that work with me and sync and move effortlessly with my across a range of devices than my life is easier and happier. Might sound sad, but it's true. The devices are powerful tools, and the easier, more powerful and useful and elegant they become, the easier and more efficient we can get things done.
Yeah.. Agreed. But there's also terrible design elements in Maps (which is unrelated to the bad data). It's really hard to see white roads on pale beige(ish) backgrounds with grey(ish) smoothened lines on a retina display. Bad design for a map. It's in need of sharpness, contrast and more defined outlines and surfaces. Perhaps Mr Ive is the right guy for this task.