Adobe customers' opinions split as company shifts to subscription platform

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 89
    thepixeldocthepixeldoc Posts: 2,257member
    mike fix wrote: »
    What happens when the upgrade and your plugins don't work anymore? You're screwed?

    You do NOT have to upgrade/update your programs on CC... and you can roll back any upgrade/update that breaks a necessary 3rd party service, like plug-ins or font managers.

    Please read the Adobe CC FAQ sheet before asking stupid questions on an Apple forum.

    ronstark wrote: »
    I own CS 2, 3, 4 , and 5. I was a loyal and active member of the now-disbanded Adobe Service Network. I demoed and taught on them all. I like CS2 and 5. I am confident CS6 is probably adequate for most in the field.

    I think the subscription idea is nice but not sustainable. Too many users need PS but not a monthly noose around their neck to use it. If I calculate all the time I would not be using PS against the subscription fee as opposed to owning the program as I do now the price of the subscription more than quadruples! Indeed, this moved placed the user in chains. Such a move, ultimately will be fatal on an emotional level at least.

    This makes Adobe products now eminently overpriced and out of reach. An alternative will be in the works almost immediately from a creative startup or even a tried and true developer like Apple itself. This will make Quark Express once again quite attractive and QE could, I imagine, present an alternative worth considering immediately as well.

    Even Scott Kelby can't sav this one.

    Please do tell what you need a professional software package for once a month. That's called a hobby. If you take the time to inform yourself, instead of spouting off about amateur concerns regarding professional software, you would also know that there are many fine competent programs on the market that you may purchase to own. Even from Adobe, such as Elements or Lightroom (continued to be available as perpetual license). In the case of Lightroom, take a look at... or even download the Beta 5. Some of the improvements... specifically the retouching improvements, healing and cloning brushes... are perfect for even the most demanding photographers now, without needing to roundtrip out to Photoshop. Inform yourself.

    ascii wrote: »
    And probably the new features will keep decreasing (there's only so many things you can do to an image).

    Eventually you could be perpetually paying for something that never changes.

    And from the opposite side of that argument, you very well could see 100's of features and bug-fixes across the former suite... this year alone!

    Rather nasty speculation on my part here: but I personally think Adobe has been holding back bug-fixes and features for just this opportune time to compel unequivocally anyone sitting on the fence in 6 months, to get the CC subscription. Devious and evil = yes! Business as usual and/or Plan B due to backlash = clever.
    jwtromp wrote: »
    This isn't Adobe's first fail. I remember when they were planning to abandon the mac platform completely (same as Xpress). Adobe is one of the last companies with absurd prices for their software. Even upgrades are strongly overpriced. That is the main problem. Adobe makes things much too complicated. They should reduce staff and become lean and mean again. Now they seem fat. The font business is also crashing due to absurd prices. Subscription will nit solve their problems. The company must be built up from scratch.......!

    Jan Tromp

    Red bold: really? With CC, only $50.00/month for all of the professional grade software that visually powers darn near every media project in the world today? One monthly payment for all of the software below? That conceivably and easily can make you a monthly income as a freelancer, anywhere from at least $50 to $5000/month? Try making money from your monthly "Swill & Swallow Addictions" like Starbucks and fast-food, see how that goes and how much "it' costs. What about that cable and data sub for your phone? How much money or potential you making from that?

    As unbelievable as it seems with this post, I am not an uncontrollable Adobe Fanboy, and have written my disdain for them many times here. However, I am a hater of the "entitlement crowd" and cheap hobbyist crowd spouting off over software they have NO BUSINESS commenting on. Yes. BUSINESS! Adobe owes hobbyists absolutely nothing, considering they even offer software specifically tailored for you folks. Get off it... go support a different company and bug them to get on with updating their inexpensive creative alternatives.

    Last rant:
    whether it's Adobe, Apple or someone/something else... why for F***s sake can't people read and inform themselves before commenting!!!! :mad: Some of the comments here are just as bad if not worse than the Apple-Anal-Cysts and their sorry-a** predictions and blog-posts regarding Apple.

    And just as the AAC's of the net get Apple wrong 90% of the time because they assume that Apple will never ever update or bring new usable features to future versions of iOS and OS X... people think that Adobe will just stop developing their CC software. Actually, both of these companies know full well it is the software that will make them continue to grow and prosper. For Adobe... it's their only choice... although if you cared to read and inform yourself... they are also moving into creative hardware accessories as well.

    700
  • Reply 42 of 89
    thepixeldocthepixeldoc Posts: 2,257member
    @genovelle: bought my CS4 on Windows. Got told I'd get CS4 for Mac for free when I'd move to Mac roughly 5 months later. Except CS5 came out and I got offered to buy the upgrade or **** off.

    Piracy has a very high legitimacy, when some companies blatantly **** you. Adobe is one of these.

    Please... just go back and play in your little sandbox!

    Legitimizing piracy because "Big Bad Adobe" wont let you play with their tools for free or whatever the hell you think it's worth! Waaaaaa!

    Adobe and the people that support their businesses using paid and purchased versions of Adobe software, would like your contact info... but first reply:

    You Sir, may (dis)honorably and thoroughly, go F*** yourself!
  • Reply 43 of 89
    thepixeldocthepixeldoc Posts: 2,257member
    copeland wrote: »
    This action by Adobe has nothing to do with piracy. Piracy is just the red hering.
    It is about locking their customers in and make more money from them.

    Until now Adobe had to bring enough new features for their customers to pay for the update,
    now they don't need new features. Their customers have to pay anyway if they don't want to loose
    access to their past work.

    How is that? Once again: please read the CC FAQ on Adobe.com. You do NOT need to use the cloud storage or bonus services at all. You can (and should!) still save to your own storage media, as well as back up using Time Machine or backup utility of choice.

    Will the new updates be forced on your computer when Adobe releases one?

    NO! You will be informed that updates are available, but in no way "forced" to update. You will also be allowed to roll-back an update if it breaks something near and dear to your 3rd party installs like plug-ins.
    As buggy as most software is in the beginning I would like to test an update on one machine
    before implementing it on all.

    And finally: Yes... you may do exactly that... and I highly recommend it!

    One of the nice "features" of CC, is that on multiple computers, your Adobe preferences and presets are synced. 3rd party software you will (obviously) have to do manually.
  • Reply 44 of 89
    fithianfithian Posts: 82member
    About a year ago I legally purchased the education edition of Creative Design Suite 5 for $65 with a free upgrade to CS 6. It was a one-time sale from Adobe. It is difficult to see the advantage of spending $20 per month for minimal upgrades to CS 6. I'll keep CS 6 for the next ten years and save $2535.

    About twice a week I get updates from Adobe for some specific component. This happens on both of my Macs. As long as CS 6 keeps working on whatever OSX system is released, I will be content. I have taught university students to use these programs for the past 20 years, but this CC may be a little expensive for most universities.
  • Reply 45 of 89
    guytorontoguytoronto Posts: 25member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by cwoloszynski View Post


    I plan on sticking with Pixelmator, I moved there and I'm not looking back.  


     


    Sorry Adobe, but for $15, I have all the tools I need.  Cheaper than a single month of Adobe rentals!



     


    Sorry Microsoft, but I have Text Edit for free. Way cheaper than MS Word!


     


    Sorry Apple, but I got iMovie for free. Way cheaper than Final Cut Pro!


     


    Sorry Avid, but I can download Audacity for free. Way cheaper than Protools!

  • Reply 46 of 89
    asciiascii Posts: 5,936member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post



    That's what their cloud services are for. They give you server storage and $20,000 worth of fonts among other things. It's sort of like paying $10-50/month for Dropbox (something that never changes).


     


    That's a pretty weak definition of providing a service. To me a service is something involving a person - an expert in a given field - giving you advice or bespoke solutions.


     


    What they are really selling is tools. Ok, their cloud is maintained by IT people, who are experts, but do you really want a different cloud for all your different tools? Wouldn't you rather have a single cloud run by experts at running a cloud, e.g. Google, Amazon? 


     


    The service-provider in this case is the client/graphic artist and Adobe is just a tool vendor. Providing tools is not a service unless they start providing bespoke solutions to individual clients, but as far as I can see they just give everyone the same programs.

  • Reply 47 of 89
    icoco3icoco3 Posts: 1,472member


    This sounds more like a paid advertisement....

     

  • Reply 48 of 89
    bsenkabsenka Posts: 799member
    I don't know what pisses me off more. That Adobe is ripping its customers off this way, or that they are sending shills to register and post their first ever comments singing the praises of Creative Cloud.
  • Reply 49 of 89
    al_bundyal_bundy Posts: 1,525member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by H2P View Post


    I'm philosophically opposed to renting software. We've been discussing the great advantages of Creative Cloud for the past year. And there are some - but not enough to overcome my opposition to renting software. Theft aside, because really are we to be punished for some P2P site that gives it away? I thought that Adobe had a way to peak at your serial number every once in awhile to make sure you're legal?


     


    Regardless, it's was just under $600 to upgrade from CS5/CS5.5 to CS6. We upgrade once every two years - our costs are doubled.


     


    At home, I rarely use anything but PS so I'm still working on CS4 (regardless, I work at work and CS4 is fine... although I'll upgrade to CS6 now).


     


    This is a move that will (continue) to boost profits at Adobe (up last year substantially -- because of Creative Cloud, I assume).



    this has nothing to do with piracy. most of the people that torrent this do it for personal use and are not the target market.


     


    this is to make their customers pay every year so they can fire their sales force and cut down on reseller costs

  • Reply 50 of 89
    hmmhmm Posts: 3,405member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post







    The Creative Cloud allows you to put apps on two computers too. This means you can run the Mac and Windows versions so if you have a Windows-only plugin, you can use it in a workflow.

    It's partly about creating a more sustainable business model like Apple has with the App Store. If you think way down the line, where's the profit going to be? It's in services and content.



    You can see this right now. Companies like Avid are hovering on the edge of bankruptcy because they are sticking with the route of high payment, software-as-a-product model. Once you have a version that works, why would you ever upgrade? That's great for the customer but terrible for the business. So what's the problem? Well, if that company goes out of business, how is that good for the customer?



    Microsoft has a subscription service now too for Office. Avid should consider doing the same - they can even offer cloud services for sharing dailies and projects. So should all the high-end software providers. Over time, some can consolidate like what happened with TV subscriptions.


     


    Autodesk and The Foundry have subscription models too, although they don't cover the initial cost per seat. The subscription portions cover support and updates, but up front licensing fees are still high. The really annoying thing with such a model is that developers may push legacy bug fixes out further, as they're being paid anyway. Without that more people stick to versions that are stable. It could have somewhat of a positive effect if this means Adobe will assign resources to providing such bug fixes and making refinements to some of the staple tools in each application rather than adding convenience features that half work. I think many people would appreciate solidified versions of the current software. I should mention that the known bug lists are actually quite short for a lot of these software packages, but there are many things that work in strange ways or simply run choppy on hardware that isn't being fully taxed.


     


     


     


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post


    this has nothing to do with piracy. most of the people that torrent this do it for personal use and are not the target market.


     


    this is to make their customers pay every year so they can fire their sales force and cut down on reseller costs



     


    They already cut reseller costs. Upgrades were only available through Adobe as of CS6 where some of them were cheaper through resellers in the past. If distribution is digital only, there is no reason they can't restrict it to direct sales either way. I suspect the bulk of their sales comes from structured businesses rather than one man design teams. As you pointed out piracy means very little here. I doubt this will even prevent it. I'm not sure whether it's all personal use. I suspect personal use + people in third world countries where the ratio between service rates and software costs might be rather poor. I don't think changing the distribution model will fix that.

  • Reply 51 of 89
    thepixeldocthepixeldoc Posts: 2,257member
    bsenka wrote: »
    I don't know what pisses me off more. That Adobe is ripping its customers off this way, or that they are sending shills to register and post their first ever comments singing the praises of Creative Cloud.

    You better not be aiming that "shill" claim at me. I just happen to be not only a user, beta tester and purchaser of Adobe's products for over 20 years, but have made my career with their tools and continue to do so, spending in the high 5 figures (a few times only for friggin' fonts as someone mentioned!) along the way.

    May I add, such as I have, and still do with Apple's products.

    As a career designer and consultant... the thing I hate the worst whether discussing Apple or in this case Adobe, the absolute BS, FUD, and misinformation that people spew. I spend a far larger amount of my time, dispelling untruths from a bunch of headline-grabbing, Internet-bitching, blog-bastards... than I do on the virtues of the product/services I'm suggesting to my clients.

    Might I also point out that it is America's Justice System and lack of diligence, specifically when they allowed Adobe to purchase Macromedia and not seeing that they were creating a services/product quasi-monopoly. I mean quasi... only because there are still other alternatives out there, so NO... Adobe is NOT a monopolist. Funny how the first time Aldus was eaten up, the courts were just a bit more leery of allowing this much control over an entire industry and the tools to do their jobs.

    Their are many things I dislike about Adobe and their software (bugs, bugs, and more bugs!)... as well as some things I'm not thrilled with from Apple's efforts. However, the alternatives to either one of those companies products is not only painful, but down right masochistic if you can't afford to play the game. As with Macs, iPhones, iPads... and now Adobe software... there are other choices. They're just not as nice to work and play with.
  • Reply 52 of 89
    thepixeldocthepixeldoc Posts: 2,257member
    al_bundy wrote: »
    this has nothing to do with piracy. most of the people that torrent this do it for personal use and are not the target market.

    this is to make their customers pay every year so they can fire their sales force and cut down on reseller costs

    Boy are you ever naive. There are entire COUNTRIES with probably not many more than a few thousand legit licenses, amid a sea of multi-user businesses and media companies looking at those that legally license as if they've gone seriously full-idiot!

    You'd be shocked at the piracy statistics outside of America...!
  • Reply 53 of 89

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ThePixelDoc View Post





    How is that? Once again: please read the CC FAQ on Adobe.com. You do NOT need to use the cloud storage or bonus services at all. You can (and should!) still save to your own storage media


     


    When people talk of loosing access to their content, they're not talking about loosing physical access to the actual digital files.  They're talking about no longer being able to open, edit or update anything due to proprietary file formats.  



    This is the biggest sticking point for me.  I mainly use Photoshop, but I do use the other suite programs often enough to purchase the entire Master Collection.  Premiere, After Effects, Illustrator, InDesign... I use them maybe 2 to 3 times a month, and the current features will easily serve my needs for the foreseeable future.  I can justify a one-time outlay of $2300 for all those capabilities, but I absolutely can't justify an endless monthly access fee for them, primarily because there's zero value at the end of the day.



    If Adobe really cared about providing value, here's what they'd do:



    For new customers, if you've been a current, continual, Creative Cloud customer for 4 years, you can stop your subscription at any time and retain a perpetual license to whatever the latest version(s) were at the time your subscription ended.  At $50 a month over 4 years, a customer would have paid the same as buying the Master Collection outright.



    For existing customers who transition from a full perpetual license to Creative Cloud, if they maintain a continual subscription for 2 years, they too can stop the service and retain a perpetual license to use the latest version at the time of the service termination.  At $50 over 2 years, a customer would have paid the same as continually upgrading to the latest full suite.



    In either case, if a customer restarts their subscription within a year, they must maintain that service for 1 year to regain perpetual license rights upon a termination.  If they wait between 1 to 2 years to restart, they must maintain it for 2 years, if they wait between 2 to 3 years, they must maintain it for 3 years, and if they wait over 3 years, they start over - having to maintain the subscription for 4 years to gain perpetual license rights. 



    This would resolve the major issue of the subscription model, which is the fact that as soon as the service ends, you're left with nothing.  It would roughly equal what customers pay now for perpetual licenses, and any higher cost over the long term could be justified by the value in always remaining current with versions and features.   And, finally, it would give long term, loyal customers residual value if/when service is stopped. 



    Without perpetual rights upon subscription termination, this is an obvious scheme to hold people's work hostage and compel a continual ransom payment.  End of story. 

  • Reply 54 of 89
    arlorarlor Posts: 529member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ThePixelDoc View Post





    Boy are you ever naive. There are entire COUNTRIES with probably not many more than a few thousand legit licenses, amid a sea of multi-user businesses and media companies looking at those that legally license as if they've gone seriously full-idiot!



    You'd be shocked at the piracy statistics outside of America...!


     


    There's a lot of piracy, yes, but as I and several other people have noted above, Creative Cloud will do precisely nothing to stop it. The apps are still installed and running locally, and you can save your data locally, so pirates will have no trouble at all cracking whatever online security features are in it. 


     


    Until the day that Adobe actually processes your data (filters, transforms, complicated calculations) in the cloud and not on your local computer, their software will be just as susceptible to piracy as it has always been.

  • Reply 55 of 89
    nastacortnastacort Posts: 3member
    The future of software is service.

    It's wild to see people prefer the old model of installing software that is immediately outdated. i'd rather incentivize my services providers to provide constant updates and handle some of the computational power on their side (computers are getting smaller these days, folks).

    Change sucks. But sure beats living in the past.

    Now lets just hope the tools keep getting better as promised.
  • Reply 56 of 89


    Is there a low cost alternative to Illustrator? I am on the periphery of the graphics field and use it. Would love to know if there is a good vector alternative. 

  • Reply 57 of 89
    lightknightlightknight Posts: 2,312member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Michael Scrip View Post







    I'm more heartbroken realizing I will be spending $20,000 for a smartphone over the next 18 years... image


    Get an iPhone, protect it well.

  • Reply 58 of 89
    h2ph2p Posts: 316member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by caliminius View Post





    That's kind of nonsense. If you use the software and create a movie, it's NOT inaccessible. If you use photoshop and produce some piece of art, that's not going away. If you actually finish something with these tools, it's going to come out in a format that isn't locked to Adobe software. The only thing will be inaccessible is the intermediary pieces of your final output.




    My layered files would be inaccessible, yes? Perhaps my PS-Alt will be able to open them along with the layers - we'll see.

  • Reply 59 of 89
    mac_dogmac_dog Posts: 980member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ascii View Post


     


    And probably the new features will keep decreasing (there's only so many things you can do to an image).


     


    Eventually you could be perpetually paying for something that never changes.



    ha. doing that now with cs6.


     


    i'm one of those users that has always defended adobe. in spite of their mediocre upgrades. no more. i simply can't justify being locked into yet another monthly fee. 


     


    adobe has a history of upgrades that are riddled with bugs, lackluster or completely useless features—certainly not worth the upgrade prices anymore.


     


    this isn't about piracy. this is about a company that has gotten too big and needs to sustain itself. a quality product and innovation are no longer the driving force behind the company. 

  • Reply 60 of 89
    mstonemstone Posts: 11,510member


    @ThePixelDoc


     


    Arguing with home users and hobbyists from a professional viewpoint is futile. They just don't get it. We spend hundreds of dollars a month just on courier fees sending high res proofs to clients, picking up product to do photo shoots, delivering print jobs, etc. $50 a month is 'fricking' peanuts when you are using the Adobe tools as the core asset of a graphics business.

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