Every democracy is a republic, but not every republic is a democracy.
While I fully agree with your definition, I remember loosely from long-ago history lessons, that the framers of the (US) Constitution did indeed make a distinction here. They felt that (European) democracies (at that time) were a "Tyranny-by-Majority", offering not enough protection of the individual and minorities. Given that many left Europe because their particular beliefs were not accepted or even tolerated, this was (then) understandable.
The failure is to pretend that this is still the case. A lot of democratic countries (in Europe and elsewhere) are a much friendlier environment for religious minorities, or people with particular sexual preferences, than huge parts of the USA are today. If the Founding Fathers would sit down today, complaining about the "excesses of democracy" would not be high on their list of concerns.
Let us not forget WW I and WW II which should make America even, if not ahead, as far as to who should be considered indebted to who.
I usually don't pull out the "next time you can liberate Normandy on your own" card unless the French are being blatantly anti-American. However, there is nothing anti-American about a tax to support the arts.
It is no wonder when there is a war on the French re always yelling retreat! Sooner or later France needs to realize if their culture can't stand on its own then they really don't have a culture worth a damn.
In the end you really can't find a good example of publiclly fianaced art. Such programs aren't culture but rather are welfare programs that generally go to support the unproductive and the useless.
Hey France did win one war: the French revolution, in which they soundly thrashed themselves.
And France isn't a democratic republic? You're converting somewhat differing shades of gray into black and white.
Yep, they are very much a republic. Multiple active (and legal) political parties and democratically elected representatives. It just so happens one party has been kicken ass in elections for a good while.
That is complete nonsense. A lot of the best movies in history had (partial) government funding (I am not talking about Hollywood trash), a lot of the best theatres, orchestras and opera houses throughout Europe could not exist without subsidies, pretty much all art schools and universities outside the US are tax funded...
Typical US tunnel vision.
And if the people want that, perfect. Personally I believe that if they can't get privet funding, that means the people don't want it. I don't think a government should force people to pay for other people's projects no matter that greatness of the outcome. Again, unless that is what the people want, which is a sad statement in itself. "I don't have the discipline to donate to the Arts, so I want the government to tax me instead"
But we do this also in the U.S. with PBS, museums and other junk!
(…) Theoretically in socialism there is no taxation.
Hmmm… not quite. Think more of it like "Theoretically, in socialism there is 100% tax".
In France, we're only half way. But this government looks particularly eager to raise this percentage again, even though the past 30 years of socialism have already rise it a lot!
I appreciate the enthusiasm, but this explanation may be lost on somebody who can't see the difference between socialism and social democracy. France is, by all means, one of the most capitalist countries in the world. People joining unions and organizing demonstrations is a reaction, not a cause. They do not have the best health care in the world and the best public schools, because somebody wanted to give it to them, but because they fought for it.
It looks like you left France about 30 years ago: France health care system is collapsing as is the retirement pension system, and its public schools are not the best in the world anymore, far from it, alas. It still has a few very good schools though, even though the latest governments have been trying hard to remove their specificities and make them more "normal" schools.
Alas, today France is a country living in its past glory and unable to cope with the reality.
It's been always the same: Leftist government=taxes. From my experience, I've never seen a leftist govmt which doesn't increase taxes. It's on their ideology. You may like it or not, but please don't be surprised, it's always the same.
Ah. Those wacky French Socialists! They must be taking lessons from New York and California.
NY and California have the largest economies of all of the other states and they have the highest paying jobs... And are donor states giving out money to the less fortunate conservative states in the South. I'd say copying NY is a recipe for success.
(…) Theoretically in socialism there is no taxation.
Hmmm… not quite. Think more of it like "Theoretically, in socialism there is 100% tax".
In France, we're only half way. But this government looks particularly eager to raise this percentage again, even though the past 30 years of socialism have already rise it a lot!
If you want to characterize France as socialist you are going to have to change the definition of socialism. Please read up on the subject. And even if France is socialist why is that a bad thing? The voters have voiced their opinion in the most recent election and it was not in favor of the conservative party. What would you recommend? A revolution?
....pretty much all art schools and universities outside the US are tax funded...
Actually, this is also true for most art schools in the USA - the best colleges are public, i.e., "socialist" in someone's view. But judging from the status of education in the USA, I don't think this is of any relevance for the commenters you are replaying to...
Even if we do get more taxes, it will still be no more than a third of what the French pay.
Are you including the cost of health care, local tax, tax on the house, and retirement savings? Last time I did a comparison, the total percentage of tax in California was not much lower than in my country (Italy), that should be not far from France's level of taxation.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
Every democracy is a republic, but not every republic is a democracy.
While I fully agree with your definition, I remember loosely from long-ago history lessons, that the framers of the (US) Constitution did indeed make a distinction here. They felt that (European) democracies (at that time) were a "Tyranny-by-Majority", offering not enough protection of the individual and minorities. Given that many left Europe because their particular beliefs were not accepted or even tolerated, this was (then) understandable.
The failure is to pretend that this is still the case. A lot of democratic countries (in Europe and elsewhere) are a much friendlier environment for religious minorities, or people with particular sexual preferences, than huge parts of the USA are today. If the Founding Fathers would sit down today, complaining about the "excesses of democracy" would not be high on their list of concerns.
I usually don't pull out the "next time you can liberate Normandy on your own" card unless the French are being blatantly anti-American. However, there is nothing anti-American about a tax to support the arts.
Ha! Look at the comment count on each of the stories published on AI today.
Like I said; Naw, this headline wasn't just hit bait. of course not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69
It is no wonder when there is a war on the French re always yelling retreat! Sooner or later France needs to realize if their culture can't stand on its own then they really don't have a culture worth a damn.
In the end you really can't find a good example of publiclly fianaced art. Such programs aren't culture but rather are welfare programs that generally go to support the unproductive and the useless.
Hey France did win one war: the French revolution, in which they soundly thrashed themselves.
LOL
A friend of mine said this a long time ago. "Parkuor. Leave it to the French to perfect the art of running away."
And France isn't a democratic republic? You're converting somewhat differing shades of gray into black and white.
Now that's funny.
Yep, they are very much a republic. Multiple active (and legal) political parties and democratically elected representatives. It just so happens one party has been kicken ass in elections for a good while.
Also queue up the litany of meally-mouthed politically correct race-baiters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon
Yet another example of a country with too much government.
And coming to a U.S. near you!
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreyfus2
That is complete nonsense. A lot of the best movies in history had (partial) government funding (I am not talking about Hollywood trash), a lot of the best theatres, orchestras and opera houses throughout Europe could not exist without subsidies, pretty much all art schools and universities outside the US are tax funded...
Typical US tunnel vision.
And if the people want that, perfect. Personally I believe that if they can't get privet funding, that means the people don't want it. I don't think a government should force people to pay for other people's projects no matter that greatness of the outcome. Again, unless that is what the people want, which is a sad statement in itself. "I don't have the discipline to donate to the Arts, so I want the government to tax me instead"
But we do this also in the U.S. with PBS, museums and other junk!
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
(…) Theoretically in socialism there is no taxation.
Hmmm… not quite. Think more of it like "Theoretically, in socialism there is 100% tax".
In France, we're only half way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreyfus2
I appreciate the enthusiasm, but this explanation may be lost on somebody who can't see the difference between socialism and social democracy. France is, by all means, one of the most capitalist countries in the world. People joining unions and organizing demonstrations is a reaction, not a cause. They do not have the best health care in the world and the best public schools, because somebody wanted to give it to them, but because they fought for it.
It looks like you left France about 30 years ago: France health care system is collapsing as is the retirement pension system, and its public schools are not the best in the world anymore, far from it, alas. It still has a few very good schools though, even though the latest governments have been trying hard to remove their specificities and make them more "normal" schools.
Alas, today France is a country living in its past glory and unable to cope with the reality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke_MacWalker
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
(…) Theoretically in socialism there is no taxation.
Hmmm… not quite. Think more of it like "Theoretically, in socialism there is 100% tax".
In France, we're only half way.
If you want to characterize France as socialist you are going to have to change the definition of socialism. Please read up on the subject. And even if France is socialist why is that a bad thing? The voters have voiced their opinion in the most recent election and it was not in favor of the conservative party. What would you recommend? A revolution?
Quote:
Originally Posted by OllieWallieWhiskers
france has cultural products?
France is actually increasing the cost of developing it's culture,
by increasing the cost of devices which "modern up to date" French people would use to advance French culture.
In effect France is restricting the advancement of their culture.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OllieWallieWhiskers
france has cultural products?
It depends on the number of explosions you need to call it a cultural product.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreyfus2
....pretty much all art schools and universities outside the US are tax funded...
Actually, this is also true for most art schools in the USA - the best colleges are public, i.e., "socialist" in someone's view. But judging from the status of education in the USA, I don't think this is of any relevance for the commenters you are replaying to...
Paolo
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross
Even if we do get more taxes, it will still be no more than a third of what the French pay.
Are you including the cost of health care, local tax, tax on the house, and retirement savings? Last time I did a comparison, the total percentage of tax in California was not much lower than in my country (Italy), that should be not far from France's level of taxation.