Like Apple, Google & Yahoo also avoid taxes by way of Ireland

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  • Reply 41 of 135
    tbelltbell Posts: 3,146member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ankleskater View Post




    Being a politician is a good gig. But do some research and you'll find out how many congressmen actually took a pay cut by entering politics. Quite a few are millionaires or otherwise quite well off. If money alone is the appeal, politics is not the most lucrative place to make it. That's not saying corruption doesn't exist. But it's saying only idiotic conspiracy theorists would believe that's the primary foundation of government.



     


    Look at somebody like former Vice President Cheney. He left his role as CEO of Haliburton. He, however, had lots of stock in the company. Once VP, he influenced policy to invade Iraq and give Haliburton very valuable contracts. Once you are super wealthy, power and status is more alluring. Further, you can use that power to make yourself even more wealthy. There are endless tales of people being appointed to various government positions only to use their power there to secure great positions afterwards. 

  • Reply 42 of 135
    massconn72massconn72 Posts: 162member


    But we don't have good roads, good schools or decent public safety net systems in place, so what good are our taxes? There is nobody in this country that can say our monies are being put to not only good use or even proper use.

  • Reply 43 of 135
    damn_its_hotdamn_its_hot Posts: 1,209member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Crowley View Post


     


    Double tax implies Apple have paid significant tax already.  They haven't.  Their tax rate through their Irish subsidiaries is less than 1%.



     


    Actually by definition double is twofold an amount or twice the original sum. Since you seem to be big at picking at nits today it would be more accurately described as being taxed again on the same profit. It really has nothing to do with whether you think Apple has "paid significant tax already".


     


    Multiple entities taxing the same profit is quite common. In the US most states have a state income tax as well as the federal income tax we all have to pay (I happen to live in one of a couple that doesn't). Most are not to thrilled by this either but they do have a choice, to do something about the tax code. or just to pay it, or move to some state that does not have an income tax.

  • Reply 44 of 135
    newbeenewbee Posts: 2,055member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Crowley View Post

     

    Double tax implies Apple have paid significant tax already.  They haven't.  Their tax rate through their Irish subsidiaries is less than 1%.

     

    Actually, Apple has paid significant tax already ....6 Billion dollars, soon to be 7 Billion. All to the good old US government. They are said to have paid almost 3% of the governments collected taxes. Not too shabby.

    What the government wants is to be able to tax Apple on it's worldwide profits (stuff not sold in USA). What Apple has done is to create a holding company to collect after tax profits from all over the world (minus the Americas) and put it into this Irish holding company to manage their investments. The profits on their investments is taxed by the US and paid by Apple. Apple are duty bound to their shareholders to maximize profits and minimize expenses. Taxes are an expense. Apple is only doing what they should rightfully be doing.

    You want to blame someone, blame the government that wastes so much money and mismanages the system and just keeps the printing presses rolling to cover up their mistakes (and handing out $$ to their friends and lobbyists.) It's a broken system, folks. It needs to be overhauled, if it isn't too late, already.
  • Reply 45 of 135
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    evilution wrote: »
    Hang on, only a few days ago there was a story on here with some old c*** stating that Apple was ripping the arse out of the tax system using a method that was "unique to Apple". Now it turns out it is common place (and will probably therefore never be mentioned again).

    I can't even see the old post about it on here any more.

    Considering the evidence Apple is "unique" in that it uses fair tactics that don't funnel money from the US to the cayman Island and other places commonly used by politicians and mobsters.
  • Reply 46 of 135
    sipsip Posts: 210member

    Quote:


    Apple has real operations, in real places, with Apple employees selling real products to real customers. We not only comply with the laws but we comply with the spirit of the laws. We don't move intellectual property offshore and use it to sell products back in the U.S. Our foreign subsidiaries pull 70% of our cash because of the rapid growth of our international business. We use this money to finance construction of Apple retail stores around the world and fund production of products. It would be very expensive to bring that cash back to the United States. Unfortunately the tax code has not kept up with the digital age. We are handicapped in relation to our foreign competitors who do not have such constraints on the free movement of capital.


     


    - Apple exec to Senate Committee



     


    Apple doesn't move IP offshore. Apple's competitors (particularly Samsung) probably pay far far less tax on earnings on US soil because they are foreign.


     


    This whole argument is whether the US taxman is entitled to tax income from overseas earnings which were already taxed once, whether 2% in Ireland, or 20% as in the UK.

  • Reply 47 of 135
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    newbee wrote: »
    Actually, Apple has paid significant tax already ....6 Billion dollars, soon to be 7 Billion. All to the good old US government. They are said to have paid almost 3% of the governments collected taxes. Not too shabby.What the government wants is to be able to tax Apple on it's worldwide profits (stuff not sold in USA). What Apple has done is to create a holding company to collect after tax profits from all over the world (minus the Americas) and put it into this Irish holding company to manage their investments. The profits on their investments is taxed by the US and paid by Apple. Apple are duty bound to their shareholders to maximize profits and minimize expenses. Taxes are an expense. Apple is only doing what they should rightfully be doing.You want to blame someone, blame the government that wastes so much money and mismanages the system and just keeps the printing presses rolling to cover up their mistakes (and handing out $$ to their friends and lobbyists.) It's a broken system, folks. It needs to be overhauled, if it isn't too late, already.

    It's sad that this needs to get explained again and again. Watching Cook patiently explain to McCain over and over what should be obvious was more stressful than teaching my grandmother how to use any modern technology.
  • Reply 48 of 135
    charlitunacharlituna Posts: 7,217member
    thebudda wrote: »
    This is nothing more than the greedy US government needing money that non-government agencies, or even private citizens, have. The government has no right to Apple or Google's funds that they have EARNED.

    Yes and no. The government does support companies via various services such as police etc. And it is not far fetched to say that companies should contribute to the running of the government that creates laws to protect that research

    So it is fair to say that yes companies owe something. Is the nature of that something, the math that computes it, what they get out of it for their money that is the real debate at the moment.

    The US government should not have a claim in money earned outside of the US I agree. No government should have claim on a cut of funds earned out of their borders anymore than Apple can claim 30% of sales in the Android version of a game because it is also on iOS.

    And if the US government created laws that make it legal for Apple to divide up their control into this regions to facilitate that each area gets the legally determined money from sales etc in that area so be it. As Cook said, change the laws. Course Cook etc will fight if its too greedy but at least the government would be doing something other than saying 'we know its legal but we still think you shouldn't do it cause you make a ton of money and we want more cause the government is broke'

    If a company is doing something nefarious like the IP games Cook says Apple doesn't do to actually 'avoid' taxes, or hiding money from the government and not reporting all US earnings appropriately, that's another game. That is money that the US deserves. Bring out proof Apple is doing this and bring charges. Don't waste tax payer dollars on hearings to play games.

    And while they are at it, the government should look at what they are giving for the money they do get. Like the IP situation.
  • Reply 49 of 135
    MacProMacPro Posts: 19,727member
    bleh1234 wrote: »
    They're already are. The Corporate States of America is run by the Corporates through Lobbyists. People don't run for office because they want to help the community, they ran for office because of the money that pours in from lobbyists.

    Yep, you get the government that paid for it. The choice is a bitch though, it's either that or the opposite extreme where you get the government that will shoot you if you don't vote for them. Democracy was a dream the Greeks had.
  • Reply 50 of 135
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


     


    This is, beyond anyone's doubt, trolling. You have, by your own hand, lost the 'argument' you claimed to have.


     


    How blind and obtuse you're pretending to be. Why someone would willingly make themselves look stupid is beyond me, but I guess that comes with whatever territory you're standing on.



     


    It's funny how often you resort to the same fallbacks, can't argue, so scream that the opposition has not argument.  It doesn't work that way pal.


     


    If you want to have civilised conversation then we can move on, otherwise I'm just going to ignore you.

  • Reply 51 of 135
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    crowley wrote: »
    True enough, though the numbers show that Apple's international effective corporate tax rate is a joke.  A reasonable adjustment would be to allow corporations to pay a top-up tax to the IRS when repatriating, rather than the full 35%, with no allowance for local taxes paid.

    I'm rather surprised that isn't the way it is already.

    Question, because I don't know the ins-and-outs of the federal system, does the Federal corporation tax apply after State corporation taxes have been taken, or before or in parallel?

    Since you admit that you don't know how the system works, why are you blathering about it at all?

    And who is to say what a 'reasonable adjustment' is? Obviously, not someone who admits that he doesn't know how the system works.

    The issue is far more complicated than you are implying. You are apparently unable to distinguish between income and assets.

    Apple pays income tax where the income is earned - which is in compliance with tax laws around the world. If the effective tax rate in Ireland is 2% (or 0.0002%, for that matter), then no one outside of Ireland should have any say in the matter. Each country sets its own tax rates and it's not up to you to criticize them. If they don't want to charge ANY corporate income tax, that's their choice. (By the same token, why aren't you running around protesting that the states that don't charge sales tax are unfair?)

    The issue here is what to do about bringing cash into the US which has been earned elsewhere. It's essentially the same as if you buy a truck overseas and ship it here - it's an asset that is being transferred. In some states, you are required to pay sales tax in a situation like that, but not very many. If it's your truck and you bring it here, it remains your truck and you don't have to pay for it again. Similarly, the argument is that if Apple moves an asset (cash) from one place to another, it shouldn't be taxed since they've already paid tax where the asset was earned. Paying income tax again is double taxation. This is, of course, complicated by corporate structures where Apple may also be moving the asset from one entity to another - which can sometimes create tax liabilities. Either way, the argument that income earned in a different country should be taxed at the same rate as income earned in the US is suspect from the start.
  • Reply 52 of 135
    charlitunacharlituna Posts: 7,217member
    richl wrote: »
    What have the Romans ever done for us? Well, yes, apart from the roads. And the education system. Oh, and the sewage system. 

    In the US most of that is on the state level. What is the US government doing in return for the money they have earned. IP protection laws? In theory perhaps but in truth the laws are a mess the legal system slow etc. that someone can be a patent troll legally is horrid. And Cook had no issue pointing this out yesterday
  • Reply 53 of 135
    tzeshantzeshan Posts: 2,351member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RichL View Post


     


    What have the Romans ever done for us? Well, yes, apart from the roads. And the education system. Oh, and the sewage system. 



     


    Russia has contributed Google CEO to US.  

  • Reply 54 of 135
    MacProMacPro Posts: 19,727member
    solipsismx wrote: »
    It's sad that this needs to get explained again and again. Watching Cook patiently explain to McCain over and over what should be obvious was more stressful than teaching my grandmother how to use any modern technology.

    It is fascinating to observe though, the professional politicians doing what they always do. Simply repeating the same lines ad nauseam all the while ignoring what is said to them. It is done by all of them all the time especially for the media who always move and and thank them for their time even though they never got their question answered. It is very rare that an interviewer challenges this, Chris Matthews is one of a few that refuse to take this crap (not selected for his political views here, rather his refusal to take BS from either side). I think this was a healthy experience and possibly a game changer (I hope) as so many people of an above average IQ , Apple enthusiasts ;) ... saw this in its most naked form and just might wake up and say 'why do we constantly tolerate this?'
  • Reply 55 of 135
    charlitunacharlituna Posts: 7,217member
    crowley wrote: »
    Double tax implies Apple have paid significant tax already.  They haven't.  Their tax rate through their Irish subsidiaries is less than 1%.

    Show us proof that the money that is going through Ireland was earned in the US or even anywhere that wasn't the EU.

    Apple says they pay the appropriate US taxes in US earnings and what goes through Ireland is EU earnings taxed as required by EU laws. It is not a US issue that the EU laws allow them to use a country with a low tax rate nor does it mean that the US government can make claim to the other 34% cause the EU didn't demand it, but that is what their taxes in money transfers between international divisions at full rate is doing. 5% is more like it.
  • Reply 56 of 135
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,388member


    Originally Posted by Crowley 

    It's funny how often you resort to the same fallbacks, can't argue, so scream that the opposition has not argument.  It doesn't work that way pal.


     


    If you want to have civilised conversation then we can move on, otherwise I'm just going to ignore you.



     


    Thanks for giving up. For a second I thought you might have actually been challenged enough to believe what you were saying earlier.

  • Reply 57 of 135
    charlitunacharlituna Posts: 7,217member
    tbell wrote: »

    Taxes are the price we pay to live in a civilized society. We want good roads, good schools, and public safety net programs. That has always been the backbone of the US economy. 

    Then I demand my money back. Because where I live the roads are trash, the public schools are a joke (yet I have to pay those taxes despite also paying tuition for private schools) and our public safety system ignores cussing putrid smelling vagrants panhandling in violation of loitering and solicitation laws on a daily basis ten feet from them while they drink their Starbucks. They also don't do anything about drivers holding cell phones in violation of the law, not yielding to pedestrians who have the walk etc. all in front of them
  • Reply 58 of 135
    charlitunacharlituna Posts: 7,217member
    crowley wrote: »
    True enough, though the numbers show that Apple's international effective corporate tax rate is a joke.  A reasonable adjustment would be to allow corporations to pay a top-up tax to the IRS when repatriating, rather than the full 35%, with no allowance for local taxes paid.

    Why? There's no global tax or government. So why should the US enforce that a company must give up any cut of their income to a government and take what the locals didn't for themselves. If the EU only wants 5% or whatever it is on the money earned in their borders that doesn't given the US a claim to the other 30%. Anymore than if I live in LA for six months and the move to NYC, California has no claim to any of my New York income simply because the tax rate there is less than what I would have paid if I was still living and working in California.
  • Reply 59 of 135
    charlitunacharlituna Posts: 7,217member
    massconn72 wrote: »
    Before people in Congress start throwing rocks at Apple, maybe they should ll.

    Look at themselves. What legal tricks are they using to not pay every penny they can.

    There are a lot of folks that believe that Congress doesn't want to see the tax codes change because they would have to pay more taxes. And they don't want to.
  • Reply 60 of 135
    mj1970mj1970 Posts: 9,002member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by charlituna View Post



    There are a lot of folks that believe that Congress doesn't want to see the tax codes change because they would have to pay more taxes. And they don't want to.


     


    That's what my accountant keeps telling me.


     


    He also keep telling me "Obama is hungry."

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