No, it's "Why does it have to be smaller?" It goes under the desk. It shouldn't have any nods to portability, we have other machines for that.
Did they put the ports so close to each other that you can't use two adjacent ones?
Seriously?? I've had to lug numerous G5 and MacPro towers around. This is a VERY refreshing change and so incredibly faster than our previous 8-core MacPro! When I first saw this, it reminded me of when Apple first introduced the iMac. I am pretty floored and definitely excited. Glad Apple has put so much effort into this... and also glad they'll be assembling in the US!
Look at those mouth-watering specs to begin with... now add your RAID stack, your powered PCIe externals, RAM disks... now AND in the future. This very well could be the computer you hang on to for 6, 7 or even 10 years... as crazy as that sounds... but possible. That's not to say that Apple won't do iteration upgrades to the internals, but the base... or Mothership 1... could very well hold 75% of it's resale value for a very long time.
Nonsense. The resale value of it will depend on the power of the machine relative to the current model. In 10 years, the Xeon E5 will look like a Pentium, and these things will be the special of the day at megamacs.
That's not to say it isn't a powerful machine now, but would you pay 75% of the price for an original Mac Pro with this on the shelf at the Apple Store? 50%? 30%?
I am just laughing at how people thought Apple would kill the Mac Pro line...
And now we just might be seeing how Apple really is going to kill the Mac Pro line.
Truth is, what's the difference between this and an iMac at this point, other than you don't get a built in display? Seriously. There's nothing in this box that couldn't be built into an (albeit thicker) iMac.
On a more positive thought, do you suppose an updated mini could be built around the same basic concept. Smaller, to be sure, but using the same airflow and basic internal layout. Give it the same SSD as the Air. Would be pretty slick, actually.
The lighted ports are a hint: this goes under the worksurface to free up space for those 4K monitors, tablets etc. Another reason not to put drives in the thing, so they can be (if needed at all) placed on the worksurface where they are accessible. Thtis isn't our grandfathers "desktop".... or, for myself lol, MY desktop.
I guess I wasn't too clear as this is the second post that mistook my intentions. It isn't the *footprint* that I'm concerned about (the new Mac Pro is far smaller than the previous generation). The problem is that it won't fit well in corners, up against other equipment (like the expansion boxes you'll need), etc.
How? Any product expansion is across Thunderbolt. We already know the cost inflation on Tbolt 1. When Tbolt 2 arrives costs will increase, not decrease from third party vendors, whose present expansion options are sparse presently.
Thunderbolt is PCI-E 2.0 x4. Thunderbolt 2 is supposed to include PCI-E 3.0 support, yet no specifics from Intel.
New Macbook Air with Haswell is just Thunderbolt 1.0 today.
Would you really expect TB 2 in a Air shipping today?
I don't see a single benefit from this design other than Jony Ive's obsession with getting thin and small.
There are a number of benefits.
It significantly reduces the size of a high performance workstation node. Like it or not this is huge.
It will supply dual high performance GPU cards as standard. This is perhaps far more important then what many will want to admit too. It means software can be designed for a machine configuration that is well known.
It addresses the cooling of high performance chips in a very innovative way.
It migrates bulk storage to outside of the case. Yeah some won't like this but really they need to get a grip, the way of the world changes and improves over time. Disk arrays simply belong in an external enclosure.
Contrary to the Johnny Ive smudge it is nearly 10" tall and about 6 and half in diameter. That isn't thin at all. It is small though for the computational horsepower contained but that is a huge advantage.
The platform has one fan that is a huge advantage over the management of dozens seen in some platforms.
There are plenty of high speed I/O ports running on separate controllers. This should allow for very high through put to a number of devices all at the same time.
As has been said, this isn't a desk top piece of art. It's a Workstation. We aren't entering the world of Star Trek, no matter how much Apple thinks the world wants everything they sell to be All-in-One and a lot of add-ons.
For many users, I've willing to say the vast majority of users, there will be few if any add ons that they don't already have for the current machine they are using. Access to a network is all that many pros really need. If not the machine has plenty of TB ports to support bulk storage or other needs.
I just don't see this selling at any level Pro users want. They will be pissed about all the extraneous money needed to connect legacy equipment.
Interesting because I see just the opposite, this machine will sell like hotcakes. Honestly though tell us about all that legacy equipment they will be pissed about. Would it really make sense to hook a computer like this up to a 15 year old disk array?
Performance over PCI-E 2.0 x4 eliminated expanded GPGPU support. I don't need Nvidia for any task.
You are getting two high performance GPUs as it is. Has the message here already been lost on people. This will be very much a high performance compute node that is expected to offer up 7 TeraFlops of performance off the GPUs. That is extremely impressive in a machine this small. Further it will be easy for Apple to further increase performance with future generations of high performance GPUs.
And now we just might be seeing how Apple really is going to kill the Mac Pro line.
Truth is, what's the difference between this and an iMac at this point, other than you don't get a built in display? Seriously. There's nothing in this box that couldn't be built into an (albeit thicker) iMac.
Much faster SSD, RAM, and a better processor. Significantly better graphics. A realistic number of TB ports. If we gotta use 'em, at least there are enough of them.
It is a nice machine. It just feels like we're skipping a step here to get from the current pro to this thing.
I'm guessing no internal GPU expansion. Thunderbolt handicapped mid range GPU performance let alone high end ones, and Thunderbolt 2 actually has the same aggregate bandwidth, 2x10 and 2x10 up and down vs 1x20 up and down, 40Gb/s each, mind the little B. PCI-E is still way ahead.
What problem did Apple solve by making the Mac Pro portable? It's not like it's easy carrying around a 27" Apple Display.
It gets rid of the big box thus allowing placement of the new Mac Pro in more convenient locations. This is a design that can just as easily sit on a book shelf next to a desk as well as under the desk or on top of it. The small size makes for more versatility in where it sits.
The biggest draw back is the limited rack mounting potential.
Would you really expect TB 2 in a Air shipping today?
There are a number of benefits.
It significantly reduces the size of a high performance workstation node. Like it or not this is huge.
It will supply dual high performance GPU cards as standard. This is perhaps far more important then what many will want to admit too. It means software can be designed for a machine configuration that is well known.
It addresses the cooling of high performance chips in a very innovative way.
It migrates bulk storage to outside of the case. Yeah some won't like this but really they need to get a grip, the way of the world changes and improves over time. Disk arrays simply belong in an external enclosure.
Contrary to the Johnny Ive smudge it is nearly 10" tall and about 6 and half in diameter. That isn't thin at all. It is small though for the computational horsepower contained but that is a huge advantage.
The platform has one fan that is a huge advantage over the management of dozens seen in some platforms.
There are plenty of high speed I/O ports running on separate controllers. This should allow for very high through put to a number of devices all at the same time.
For many users, I've willing to say the vast majority of users, there will be few if any add ons that they don't already have for the current machine they are using. Access to a network is all that many pros really need. If not the machine has plenty of TB ports to support bulk storage or other needs.
Interesting because I see just the opposite, this machine will sell like hotcakes. Honestly though tell us about all that legacy equipment they will be pissed about. Would it really make sense to hook a computer like this up to a 15 year old disk array?
You are getting two high performance GPUs as it is. Has the message here already been lost on people. This will be very much a high performance compute node that is expected to offer up 7 TeraFlops of performance off the GPUs. That is extremely impressive in a machine this small. Further it will be easy for Apple to further increase performance with future generations of high performance GPUs.
I'm not knocking the GPGPUs installed. I like them. I don't expect most folks want to pay for $3k worth of CAD/CAM intensive GPGPUs when the AMD 8000s coming out would have done just as well. I would have preferred an expansion for a daughter card configuration that I can plug n' play GPGPUs as add-ons or swap them out when not using this for Engineering Applications.
The new Mac Pro design seems to take full advantage of the chimney effect. It should move a fair amount of air all by itself, before the fan gets involved. (and I love that Apple even designed the fan here) One downside is that if someone was going to try and rack mount this, they would have to do it vertically, or otherwise augment the cooling.
I get that some video professionals are disappointed at the inability to swap video cards, but as an audio guy, this seems fairly close to perfect for me. I will have to add some sort of PCIe chassis, but I was already mostly using external drives, so that won't change. Thunderbolt seems fine for external drives, hell, USB3 is pretty much good enough for recording.
The reliance on Thunderbolt for expansion on the new MacPro reminds me of when Apple went USB only on the original iMacs. It jump-started the USB peripheral market. I hope this has the same effect on the Thunderbolt peripheral market.
So… the bottom line is cost. Everybody seems to be saying that it is going to be expensive. I think that this thing could be cheaper than the existing Mac Pro. If it comes in under $2000, which I think is a remote possibility, the pain of having to add a PCIe chassis won't be so bad. At any rate, I think I want one.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlandd
No, it's "Why does it have to be smaller?" It goes under the desk. It shouldn't have any nods to portability, we have other machines for that.
Did they put the ports so close to each other that you can't use two adjacent ones?
Seriously?? I've had to lug numerous G5 and MacPro towers around. This is a VERY refreshing change and so incredibly faster than our previous 8-core MacPro! When I first saw this, it reminded me of when Apple first introduced the iMac. I am pretty floored and definitely excited. Glad Apple has put so much effort into this... and also glad they'll be assembling in the US!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pendergast
Does it not support RAID externally?
How does it create space problems? It's a fraction of the size and easily fits within the existing footprint.
Space problems because of it's shape.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Fix
Apple once again proving they hate professionals.
I remember hearing the same thing when Apple removed floppy disk drives.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePixelDoc
Look at those mouth-watering specs to begin with... now add your RAID stack, your powered PCIe externals, RAM disks... now AND in the future. This very well could be the computer you hang on to for 6, 7 or even 10 years... as crazy as that sounds... but possible. That's not to say that Apple won't do iteration upgrades to the internals, but the base... or Mothership 1... could very well hold 75% of it's resale value for a very long time.
Nonsense. The resale value of it will depend on the power of the machine relative to the current model. In 10 years, the Xeon E5 will look like a Pentium, and these things will be the special of the day at megamacs.
That's not to say it isn't a powerful machine now, but would you pay 75% of the price for an original Mac Pro with this on the shelf at the Apple Store? 50%? 30%?
Quote:
Originally Posted by rezwits
I am just laughing at how people thought Apple would kill the Mac Pro line...
And now we just might be seeing how Apple really is going to kill the Mac Pro line.
Truth is, what's the difference between this and an iMac at this point, other than you don't get a built in display? Seriously. There's nothing in this box that couldn't be built into an (albeit thicker) iMac.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pendergast
Does it not support RAID externally?
How does it create space problems? It's a fraction of the size and easily fits within the existing footprint.
I gather the external shell acts as one big heat sink. A cylinder probably helps distribute the heat uniformly across the surface.
All this talk of external expansion being the future makes me think of this old ad:
But the future is the future. I just hope that all these wonderful external devices will last for at least a few generations of hardware upgrades.
On a more positive thought, do you suppose an updated mini could be built around the same basic concept. Smaller, to be sure, but using the same airflow and basic internal layout. Give it the same SSD as the Air. Would be pretty slick, actually.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfc1138
The lighted ports are a hint: this goes under the worksurface to free up space for those 4K monitors, tablets etc. Another reason not to put drives in the thing, so they can be (if needed at all) placed on the worksurface where they are accessible. Thtis isn't our grandfathers "desktop".... or, for myself lol, MY desktop.
I guess I wasn't too clear as this is the second post that mistook my intentions. It isn't the *footprint* that I'm concerned about (the new Mac Pro is far smaller than the previous generation). The problem is that it won't fit well in corners, up against other equipment (like the expansion boxes you'll need), etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlandd
I can't think of a reason why a cylinder would even be an advantageous shape.
I guess you missed the critical part of why it was designed as a cylinder. Real pros must not pay attention.
- It significantly reduces the size of a high performance workstation node. Like it or not this is huge.
- It will supply dual high performance GPU cards as standard. This is perhaps far more important then what many will want to admit too. It means software can be designed for a machine configuration that is well known.
- It addresses the cooling of high performance chips in a very innovative way.
- It migrates bulk storage to outside of the case. Yeah some won't like this but really they need to get a grip, the way of the world changes and improves over time. Disk arrays simply belong in an external enclosure.
- Contrary to the Johnny Ive smudge it is nearly 10" tall and about 6 and half in diameter. That isn't thin at all. It is small though for the computational horsepower contained but that is a huge advantage.
- The platform has one fan that is a huge advantage over the management of dozens seen in some platforms.
- There are plenty of high speed I/O ports running on separate controllers. This should allow for very high through put to a number of devices all at the same time.
For many users, I've willing to say the vast majority of users, there will be few if any add ons that they don't already have for the current machine they are using. Access to a network is all that many pros really need. If not the machine has plenty of TB ports to support bulk storage or other needs. Interesting because I see just the opposite, this machine will sell like hotcakes. Honestly though tell us about all that legacy equipment they will be pissed about. Would it really make sense to hook a computer like this up to a 15 year old disk array? You are getting two high performance GPUs as it is. Has the message here already been lost on people. This will be very much a high performance compute node that is expected to offer up 7 TeraFlops of performance off the GPUs. That is extremely impressive in a machine this small. Further it will be easy for Apple to further increase performance with future generations of high performance GPUs.Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyde
And now we just might be seeing how Apple really is going to kill the Mac Pro line.
Truth is, what's the difference between this and an iMac at this point, other than you don't get a built in display? Seriously. There's nothing in this box that couldn't be built into an (albeit thicker) iMac.
Much faster SSD, RAM, and a better processor. Significantly better graphics. A realistic number of TB ports. If we gotta use 'em, at least there are enough of them.
It is a nice machine. It just feels like we're skipping a step here to get from the current pro to this thing.
The bashers are out in force around the net.
I will go with people like Blackmagic Designs:
http://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=8898
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][
No, it's only on the top. I saw that on Apple's site. It pulls in air from bottom. I guess the fan pushes it out from top.
It's your basic push-pull configuration.
It's screaming for a glowing white Apple logo on the front though?
Quote:
Originally Posted by tipoo
I'm guessing no internal GPU expansion. Thunderbolt handicapped mid range GPU performance let alone high end ones, and Thunderbolt 2 actually has the same aggregate bandwidth, 2x10 and 2x10 up and down vs 1x20 up and down, 40Gb/s each, mind the little B. PCI-E is still way ahead.
Wow, you assume a lot.
It gets rid of the big box thus allowing placement of the new Mac Pro in more convenient locations. This is a design that can just as easily sit on a book shelf next to a desk as well as under the desk or on top of it. The small size makes for more versatility in where it sits.
The biggest draw back is the limited rack mounting potential.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69
Would you really expect TB 2 in a Air shipping today?
There are a number of benefits.
For many users, I've willing to say the vast majority of users, there will be few if any add ons that they don't already have for the current machine they are using. Access to a network is all that many pros really need. If not the machine has plenty of TB ports to support bulk storage or other needs.It significantly reduces the size of a high performance workstation node. Like it or not this is huge.
It will supply dual high performance GPU cards as standard. This is perhaps far more important then what many will want to admit too. It means software can be designed for a machine configuration that is well known.
It addresses the cooling of high performance chips in a very innovative way.
It migrates bulk storage to outside of the case. Yeah some won't like this but really they need to get a grip, the way of the world changes and improves over time. Disk arrays simply belong in an external enclosure.
Contrary to the Johnny Ive smudge it is nearly 10" tall and about 6 and half in diameter. That isn't thin at all. It is small though for the computational horsepower contained but that is a huge advantage.
The platform has one fan that is a huge advantage over the management of dozens seen in some platforms.
There are plenty of high speed I/O ports running on separate controllers. This should allow for very high through put to a number of devices all at the same time.
Interesting because I see just the opposite, this machine will sell like hotcakes. Honestly though tell us about all that legacy equipment they will be pissed about. Would it really make sense to hook a computer like this up to a 15 year old disk array?
You are getting two high performance GPUs as it is. Has the message here already been lost on people. This will be very much a high performance compute node that is expected to offer up 7 TeraFlops of performance off the GPUs. That is extremely impressive in a machine this small. Further it will be easy for Apple to further increase performance with future generations of high performance GPUs.
I'm not knocking the GPGPUs installed. I like them. I don't expect most folks want to pay for $3k worth of CAD/CAM intensive GPGPUs when the AMD 8000s coming out would have done just as well. I would have preferred an expansion for a daughter card configuration that I can plug n' play GPGPUs as add-ons or swap them out when not using this for Engineering Applications.
How this base system is < $6k is anyone's guess.
The new Mac Pro design seems to take full advantage of the chimney effect. It should move a fair amount of air all by itself, before the fan gets involved. (and I love that Apple even designed the fan here) One downside is that if someone was going to try and rack mount this, they would have to do it vertically, or otherwise augment the cooling.
I get that some video professionals are disappointed at the inability to swap video cards, but as an audio guy, this seems fairly close to perfect for me. I will have to add some sort of PCIe chassis, but I was already mostly using external drives, so that won't change. Thunderbolt seems fine for external drives, hell, USB3 is pretty much good enough for recording.
The reliance on Thunderbolt for expansion on the new MacPro reminds me of when Apple went USB only on the original iMacs. It jump-started the USB peripheral market. I hope this has the same effect on the Thunderbolt peripheral market.
So… the bottom line is cost. Everybody seems to be saying that it is going to be expensive. I think that this thing could be cheaper than the existing Mac Pro. If it comes in under $2000, which I think is a remote possibility, the pain of having to add a PCIe chassis won't be so bad. At any rate, I think I want one.