The new Mac Pro looks very interesting.The pricing will be even more interesting. But what will be most interesting is how 'cheap as chips' Windows PC makers like HP and Dell will react to it.
A lot of traditional PC buyers might be greatly tempted to buy one of these stylish monsters just to run Windows as the first step in their transition from Windows to Mavericks.
On the one hand, I think the design of this is fantastic and can see how this is going to sell pretty well. However.....
No PCIe means no pro audio users. It's going to be expensive and having to add an external thunderbolt chassis for soundcards will be both bulky and prohibitively expensive.
It'll be great for certain video professionals, but seeing as nothing seems to be user upgradeable on this machine will really make it a nonstarter for a lot of folks. Not being able to upgrade the video card, no PCIe and no Firewire are all big minuses for video pros.
Single processor also seems like a huge step back for most serious professionals.
RAM and SSDs both appear to be soldered on, as well. I understand that Apple would rather everyone replace their machines every 4 years instead of just upgrading and squeezing out 8 years (a lot of studios got over 8+ years out of their Mac Pro workstations), but I think at the high end, this will only be a turnoff for a lot of users, though I'm sure apple won't miss the niche market they represent in return for "prosumer" types who will probably put this in their living rooms to play MP3s, Aperture slideshows and Steam games.
People on Gearslutz and TapeOp forums have been predicting a Mac-Mini type concept for the New Mac Pro for about 2 years as a worst-case scenario, and as impressive as the design of this machine is, it basically fulfills that prediction.
Yes, people expecting below-$2500 prices aren't doing the math: If you put the price of a new generation Xeon, plus two new gen AMD boards, plus flash storage which is much faster than the newest SSDs, plus very fast RAM... I hate to tell this, but I cannot see all of this fitting below 3K. But I hope the entry isn't at 5K either. The closer they approach to 5K, the closer they'll get to the G4 cube failure. The more they approach 2K in the entry model, the more the'll get to selling these new boxes in huge, huge, huge amounts...
So I hope there's an entry configuration not far away from $2500. Otherwise, I see it too risky, and prone to a commercial failure.
These are my thoughts, more or less. But I wish an entry configuration at 1800-2000 euros (for the box only) be possible. The physical dimensions of this machine would allow it to serve the non-pro segment that has above average computing needs, if Apple decides to put inside somewhat slower components in order to keep the price under check.
With today's technology, this machine can be the mythical xMac for everyone and the high-performance Mac Pro in one package, depending on the components used inside. It's up to Apple to let it be.
I think what people don't realize is that the days of slapping in a RAID hard drive ............ are probably gone.
Gee, I sure hope someone tells; Oracle/Sun, HP, IBM, Dell, Fujitsu, NEC, BoXX, Lenovo and SuperMicro this before they produce another Workstation with a RAID system.
Haha, cylinder only! Including the basic array of internal components of course.
Yes... but... if you remove the Xeon, the GPUs, and the flash, I guess the remains is less than $1000. However, when you put on it the Xeon, the two GPUs, and the flash (all of them next generation components)... price becomes worrying.
See it this way: a full equipped iMac, with 512GB SSD, is at more than 3K. And it has only one GPU (with 2GB), an i7, and 32MB of cheaper RAM. Yes, it has a 27inch display, but if you discount it, I don't think you get below $2500.
So $2500, for a machine with (historically) less margins than the Mac Pro, and with just one GPU (with lower specs), and an i7, and SSD with lower specs...
I really wish they manage to offer some configuration in the $2500 range, because I like it a lot.
Now you have. I have dreamed of a small and super high compute box with super fast external I/O. My old (never upgraded beyond memory) old Mac Pro Dual G5 sits mostly unused. Upgrading Mac Pros has always been dodgy at best so why try to lie that they are highly configurable like a PC box?
It's not only about upgrades but PCIe cards as well; capture boards, sound cards, super fast SSD cards, i/o cards, ect. I love creating music, I have a fairly new and very expensive M-Audio Firewire audio interface and one of the best PCIe audio cards they make, the new Mac Pro doesn't have FireWire or card slots so I'm SOL. Fine, I except that, will professional audio studios, I don't know, that's why I'm asking., not being sarcastic.
Yes... but... if you remove the Xeon, the GPUs, and the flash, I guess the remains is less than $1000. However, when you put on it the Xeon, the two GPUs, and the flash (all of them next generation components)... price becomes worrying.
See it this way: a full equipped iMac, with 512GB SSD, is at more than 3K. And it has only one GPU (with 2GB), an i7, and 32MB of cheaper RAM. Yes, it has a 27inch display, but if you discount it, I don't think you get below $2500.
So $2500, for a machine with (historically) less margins than the Mac Pro, and with just one GPU (with lower specs), and an i7, and SSD with lower specs...
I see what you mean. But Xeons are very expensive; aren't there other CPU options?
Also, does it really need two high-end GPUs to run? Finally, using a slower SSD with less capacity can have a dramatic impact on price.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecs
I really wish they manage to offer some configuration in the $2500 range, because I like it a lot.
Clearly you belong to the past, stay there. This machine isn't for guys like you.
That is a stupid statement reeking of fanboyism. You don't deserve Apple. Steve never loved you. *tattoos Apple logo on chest*
It has a lot of valid use cases. As misa points out, it's a pain in the ass to manage. Some software is released and supported on specific linux kernels, just because it provides a lightweight/powerful OS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superbass
RAM and SSDs both appear to be soldered on, as well. I understand that Apple would rather everyone replace their machines every 4 years instead of just upgrading and squeezing out 8 years (a lot of studios got over 8+ years out of their Mac Pro workstations), but I think at the high end, this will only be a turnoff for a lot of users, though I'm sure apple won't miss the niche market they represent in return for "prosumer" types who will probably put this in their living rooms to play MP3s, Aperture slideshows and Steam games.
Get your eyes checked or learn to identify a socket. It's not difficult to spot. Soldered here would take up a lot of extra board space and make warranty service extremely expensive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecs
Yes... but... if you remove the Xeon, the GPUs, and the flash, I guess the remains is less than $1000. However, when you put on it the Xeon, the two GPUs, and the flash (all of them next generation components)... price becomes worrying.
See it this way: a full equipped iMac, with 512GB SSD, is at more than 3K. And it has only one GPU (with 2GB), an i7, and 32MB of cheaper RAM. Yes, it has a 27inch display, but if you discount it, I don't think you get below $2500.
So $2500, for a machine with (historically) less margins than the Mac Pro, and with just one GPU (with lower specs), and an i7, and SSD with lower specs...
I really wish they manage to offer some configuration in the $2500 range, because I like it a lot.
I disagree. First you are comparing cto pricing and trying to estimate base prices against that. CTO generally has higher markups. I doubt it will come with those specs by default. You are likely to see either a 256 or 512 ssd standard, probably a 6 core Xeon 1600s cpu, and cheaper gpus. If it moves to $3000 and loses internal storage, I will be surprised. If Apple redesigned something, they definitely want it to sell. I don't think they will price it too far into super - niche product status in its base configuration while losing internal storage, as it will have whatever minimum product volume required to maintain a viable line.
I am curious to see how the new MacPro will be greeted when it's released. What I don't understand, even though I've been a mac user since 1985, is that if Apple had announced an identically designed MacPro as the previous model, with more recent hardware (PCIe, faster ram, SSD HD, more Thunderbolt ports e.t.c.) and 2x12core Xeons (whenever they're available), that would have made EVERYONE happy. Why "innovate" so much for a target audience that just needs more speed and more storage. I understand that technology moves forward, but why do it SOOO "innovative"? You can innovate quite a bit without pushing professionals outside their comfort zone. Anyway, I like the design, but I would like a few more options as well.
It's not only about upgrades but PCIe cards as well; capture boards, sound cards, super fast SSD cards, i/o cards, ect. I love creating music, I have a fairly new and very expensive M-Audio Firewire audio interface and one of the best PCIe audio cards they make, the new Mac Pro doesn't have FireWire or card slots so I'm SOL. Fine, I except that, will professional audio studios, I don't know, that's why I'm asking., not being sarcastic.
Have you tried the TB to FW adapter with the M-Audio device? I used to have a Fast Track Pro and a ProFire 610. Cables running all over my office. Then I discovered the Zoom H4N and tossed everything (it was too good for my purposes!), but I lost the ability to record directly into the Mac. Now I still use the H4N and also have an Apogee Mic for quick takes and samples. The latter also works great with my iPad/iPhone.
Back to the interface issue, I'll bet M-Audio will come out with a TB version.
Nope. You were talking about what Apple "could have done" with Mac Pro, and Mac Pros use Xeons.
I was talking about that? Huh?
And I thought I was referring to your erroneous comment about no such thing as a 12-core processor. But I understand the human nature to refuse to admit being wrong. Won't belabor the point. ;-)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton
"Dual 12 core processors"??? You know there's no such thing.
RAM and SSDs both appear to be soldered on, as well.
They both look socketed to me. Go here http://www.apple.com/mac-pro/ click "scroll to continue" at the bottom, and click the 5th dot down, it will do an animation of the RAM coming out of their sockets. They look like standard DIMMs. Then click the 7th dot down and you can see the Flash is socketed in a little white socket. It looks like the same "blade" form factor they used on the iMac and Macbook Air: http://guide-images.ifixit.net/igi/EwXnxRyfEywUEP4A.huge
Comments
Sorry, Seymore Cray beat them by a couple of decades. Google up images for the "CDC 8600". Even looks the same, if a little larger…
Quote:
Originally Posted by v5v
The design does LOOK goofy, but it allows for the most ingenious cooling system ever. It's hard to argue just because it ain't pretty.
Yes, the new Xeons are 12 cores...
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Intel-Xeon-Ivy-Bridge-EP-Server,21972.html
Apple should have built this as a dual processor box.
The new Mac Pro looks very interesting.The pricing will be even more interesting. But what will be most interesting is how 'cheap as chips' Windows PC makers like HP and Dell will react to it.
A lot of traditional PC buyers might be greatly tempted to buy one of these stylish monsters just to run Windows as the first step in their transition from Windows to Mavericks.
On the one hand, I think the design of this is fantastic and can see how this is going to sell pretty well. However.....
No PCIe means no pro audio users. It's going to be expensive and having to add an external thunderbolt chassis for soundcards will be both bulky and prohibitively expensive.
It'll be great for certain video professionals, but seeing as nothing seems to be user upgradeable on this machine will really make it a nonstarter for a lot of folks. Not being able to upgrade the video card, no PCIe and no Firewire are all big minuses for video pros.
Single processor also seems like a huge step back for most serious professionals.
RAM and SSDs both appear to be soldered on, as well. I understand that Apple would rather everyone replace their machines every 4 years instead of just upgrading and squeezing out 8 years (a lot of studios got over 8+ years out of their Mac Pro workstations), but I think at the high end, this will only be a turnoff for a lot of users, though I'm sure apple won't miss the niche market they represent in return for "prosumer" types who will probably put this in their living rooms to play MP3s, Aperture slideshows and Steam games.
People on Gearslutz and TapeOp forums have been predicting a Mac-Mini type concept for the New Mac Pro for about 2 years as a worst-case scenario, and as impressive as the design of this machine is, it basically fulfills that prediction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
ugly external accessories required
I'll bet that we will see some interesting accessory designs sometime soon.
Hopefully this machine will give 3rd party designers a needed kick to actually produce something that looks good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecs
Yes, people expecting below-$2500 prices aren't doing the math: If you put the price of a new generation Xeon, plus two new gen AMD boards, plus flash storage which is much faster than the newest SSDs, plus very fast RAM... I hate to tell this, but I cannot see all of this fitting below 3K. But I hope the entry isn't at 5K either. The closer they approach to 5K, the closer they'll get to the G4 cube failure. The more they approach 2K in the entry model, the more the'll get to selling these new boxes in huge, huge, huge amounts...
So I hope there's an entry configuration not far away from $2500. Otherwise, I see it too risky, and prone to a commercial failure.
These are my thoughts, more or less. But I wish an entry configuration at 1800-2000 euros (for the box only) be possible. The physical dimensions of this machine would allow it to serve the non-pro segment that has above average computing needs, if Apple decides to put inside somewhat slower components in order to keep the price under check.
With today's technology, this machine can be the mythical xMac for everyone and the high-performance Mac Pro in one package, depending on the components used inside. It's up to Apple to let it be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PB
These are my thoughts, more or less. But I wish an entry configuration at 1800-2000 euros (for the box only) be possible.
Define "box only".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fake_William_Shatner
I think what people don't realize is that the days of slapping in a RAID hard drive ............ are probably gone.
Gee, I sure hope someone tells; Oracle/Sun, HP, IBM, Dell, Fujitsu, NEC, BoXX, Lenovo and SuperMicro this before they produce another Workstation with a RAID system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecs
Define "box only".
Haha, cylinder only! Including the basic array of internal components of course.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PB
Haha, cylinder only! Including the basic array of internal components of course.
Yes... but... if you remove the Xeon, the GPUs, and the flash, I guess the remains is less than $1000. However, when you put on it the Xeon, the two GPUs, and the flash (all of them next generation components)... price becomes worrying.
See it this way: a full equipped iMac, with 512GB SSD, is at more than 3K. And it has only one GPU (with 2GB), an i7, and 32MB of cheaper RAM. Yes, it has a 27inch display, but if you discount it, I don't think you get below $2500.
So $2500, for a machine with (historically) less margins than the Mac Pro, and with just one GPU (with lower specs), and an i7, and SSD with lower specs...
I really wish they manage to offer some configuration in the $2500 range, because I like it a lot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven N.
Now you have. I have dreamed of a small and super high compute box with super fast external I/O. My old (never upgraded beyond memory) old Mac Pro Dual G5 sits mostly unused. Upgrading Mac Pros has always been dodgy at best so why try to lie that they are highly configurable like a PC box?
It's not only about upgrades but PCIe cards as well; capture boards, sound cards, super fast SSD cards, i/o cards, ect. I love creating music, I have a fairly new and very expensive M-Audio Firewire audio interface and one of the best PCIe audio cards they make, the new Mac Pro doesn't have FireWire or card slots so I'm SOL. Fine, I except that, will professional audio studios, I don't know, that's why I'm asking., not being sarcastic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecs
Yes... but... if you remove the Xeon, the GPUs, and the flash, I guess the remains is less than $1000. However, when you put on it the Xeon, the two GPUs, and the flash (all of them next generation components)... price becomes worrying.
See it this way: a full equipped iMac, with 512GB SSD, is at more than 3K. And it has only one GPU (with 2GB), an i7, and 32MB of cheaper RAM. Yes, it has a 27inch display, but if you discount it, I don't think you get below $2500.
So $2500, for a machine with (historically) less margins than the Mac Pro, and with just one GPU (with lower specs), and an i7, and SSD with lower specs...
I see what you mean. But Xeons are very expensive; aren't there other CPU options?
Also, does it really need two high-end GPUs to run? Finally, using a slower SSD with less capacity can have a dramatic impact on price.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecs
I really wish they manage to offer some configuration in the $2500 range, because I like it a lot.
Me too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pedromartins
linux is not the option either.
Clearly you belong to the past, stay there. This machine isn't for guys like you.
That is a stupid statement reeking of fanboyism. You don't deserve Apple. Steve never loved you. *tattoos Apple logo on chest*
It has a lot of valid use cases. As misa points out, it's a pain in the ass to manage. Some software is released and supported on specific linux kernels, just because it provides a lightweight/powerful OS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superbass
RAM and SSDs both appear to be soldered on, as well. I understand that Apple would rather everyone replace their machines every 4 years instead of just upgrading and squeezing out 8 years (a lot of studios got over 8+ years out of their Mac Pro workstations), but I think at the high end, this will only be a turnoff for a lot of users, though I'm sure apple won't miss the niche market they represent in return for "prosumer" types who will probably put this in their living rooms to play MP3s, Aperture slideshows and Steam games.
Get your eyes checked or learn to identify a socket. It's not difficult to spot. Soldered here would take up a lot of extra board space and make warranty service extremely expensive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecs
Yes... but... if you remove the Xeon, the GPUs, and the flash, I guess the remains is less than $1000. However, when you put on it the Xeon, the two GPUs, and the flash (all of them next generation components)... price becomes worrying.
See it this way: a full equipped iMac, with 512GB SSD, is at more than 3K. And it has only one GPU (with 2GB), an i7, and 32MB of cheaper RAM. Yes, it has a 27inch display, but if you discount it, I don't think you get below $2500.
So $2500, for a machine with (historically) less margins than the Mac Pro, and with just one GPU (with lower specs), and an i7, and SSD with lower specs...
I really wish they manage to offer some configuration in the $2500 range, because I like it a lot.
I disagree. First you are comparing cto pricing and trying to estimate base prices against that. CTO generally has higher markups. I doubt it will come with those specs by default. You are likely to see either a 256 or 512 ssd standard, probably a 6 core Xeon 1600s cpu, and cheaper gpus. If it moves to $3000 and loses internal storage, I will be surprised. If Apple redesigned something, they definitely want it to sell. I don't think they will price it too far into super - niche product status in its base configuration while losing internal storage, as it will have whatever minimum product volume required to maintain a viable line.
What I don't understand, even though I've been a mac user since 1985, is that if Apple had announced an identically designed MacPro as the previous model, with more recent hardware (PCIe, faster ram, SSD HD, more Thunderbolt ports e.t.c.) and 2x12core Xeons (whenever they're available), that would have made EVERYONE happy.
Why "innovate" so much for a target audience that just needs more speed and more storage.
I understand that technology moves forward, but why do it SOOO "innovative"?
You can innovate quite a bit without pushing professionals outside their comfort zone.
Anyway, I like the design, but I would like a few more options as well.
Cheers!
Does this mean Apple will be phasing out MiniDisplay in favour of Thunderbolt displays?, so that is another £900 added on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic
It's not only about upgrades but PCIe cards as well; capture boards, sound cards, super fast SSD cards, i/o cards, ect. I love creating music, I have a fairly new and very expensive M-Audio Firewire audio interface and one of the best PCIe audio cards they make, the new Mac Pro doesn't have FireWire or card slots so I'm SOL. Fine, I except that, will professional audio studios, I don't know, that's why I'm asking., not being sarcastic.
Have you tried the TB to FW adapter with the M-Audio device? I used to have a Fast Track Pro and a ProFire 610. Cables running all over my office. Then I discovered the Zoom H4N and tossed everything (it was too good for my purposes!), but I lost the ability to record directly into the Mac. Now I still use the H4N and also have an Apogee Mic for quick takes and samples. The latter also works great with my iPad/iPhone.
Back to the interface issue, I'll bet M-Audio will come out with a TB version.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton
Nope. You were talking about what Apple "could have done" with Mac Pro, and Mac Pros use Xeons.
I was talking about that? Huh?
And I thought I was referring to your erroneous comment about no such thing as a 12-core processor. But I understand the human nature to refuse to admit being wrong. Won't belabor the point. ;-)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton
"Dual 12 core processors"??? You know there's no such thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superbass
RAM and SSDs both appear to be soldered on, as well.
They both look socketed to me. Go here http://www.apple.com/mac-pro/ click "scroll to continue" at the bottom, and click the 5th dot down, it will do an animation of the RAM coming out of their sockets. They look like standard DIMMs. Then click the 7th dot down and you can see the Flash is socketed in a little white socket. It looks like the same "blade" form factor they used on the iMac and Macbook Air: http://guide-images.ifixit.net/igi/EwXnxRyfEywUEP4A.huge
so much for sneaking this in to replace my mac pro without my wife noticing?!?
At least there is now room for those accessories!