Pure BS! Sorry...because I am your dad's age and lived through it. The one thing you get right in that little re-write of history, is that the developers left the Mac for Windows. Well actually, they didn't leave or migrate, they specifically decided to develop for MS Windows because... THAT'S where the money was in the enterprise software business and games. Businesses at the time were still IBM shops for the most part with IBM compatibles. Apple didn't play so well in that environment, and they never went that route. They also left games on the table as well, concentrating on the graphic arts and printing industry. Which BTW at the time, was a "professional" niche to be sure, but we were willing to pay those "high" prices, considering traditional typesetting machines of the day cost like $50,000. Also don't forget that very few households had a PC until about the turn of the century, relatively speaking.
We both lived through it. Apple were never going to win the enterprise market but they could have won the home market, however in 1992 they were selling high end machines for $5000. 40Mhz of raw speed, though. That was when they should have reduced prices for the home market - todays "poor". The home market had, after all been big in the 1980's until it collapsed. And how would games be a thing to develop for it there was no home market? One existed, it was very high end, but Apple with a friendly OS should have targeted the middle income groups, not the rich, when Windows 1995 came out it was game over.
And, as I said it was in the mid to but mainly late 90's when they started to produce too many models. See this graph here
But nobody is asking for 20 models, just 3-4 and cheaper. They had enough in 1992.
Quote:
Apple tried to go the markeshare route with a wide assortment of Macs... and licensing of the OS... and it almost tanked them. Margins had nothing to do with it. Once again, it was because everybody had jumped on the Windows bandwagon... NOT... because it was better, but because MS did the right thing with pretty decent developer tools. Also don't forget that MS "allowed" Windows to be pirated to gain a lot of that marketshare... similar to drug dealers giving out samples.
once again your timeline is wrong. They licensed in the late 90's when their market share had already dropped. That was stupid. The clear time to make inroads into the market was 1990-1994, with fewer cheaper models. By 1995, Apple Macintosh computers accounted for around 7% of the worldwide desktop computer market. Apple executives decided to launch an official clone program in order to expand Macintosh market penetration.
In short, too late. They should have tried to win market when they had a chance in the early 1990s.
Quote:
Middle income soon: you bet. They already aspire to own an iPhone now.... and when the time and financials are right for them, they will own one.
First choice of developers: Apple is and I don't see that changing soon... because it's where they make the money to continue developing. Simple.
And you are forgetting something else - Macs were the first choice of developers in the 1980's for many products, including MicroSoft's own products. Adobe. And so on. Better API, smaller but richer user base. Then they left. Can you think why?
Quote:
Devices for the poor: why? They offer nothing to the developers... and in many cases, a Dev just porting an App to Android is asking for it to be pirated immediately, rather than some poor kid in China doing the dirty work. Android offers some decent stuff on the Google Play Store... HOWEVER... there are 500+ other app stores out there for Android, where Google and the Western developers receive squat! These demographics don't want Apple for the very REASON that you must have an Apple ID. Many of the carrier Androids actually do billing for Apps on the PAYG invoice... if and when someone wants, say WhatsApp. Apple will never allow that, nor should they.
I'll ignore the Americanocentric bias about "thieving furrieners"
By "poor" ( which I didn't user but lets go with it) I mean middle income in the developing world, and pretty much middle income in Europe too. Not that Americans are much richer than Europeans - in fact incomes have stalled in the US since 1972. The only reason Apple is winning in the US isn't because you are richer but you are subsidized by the carriers. If the entry level phone were $199 and the iPhone 5 $399 then we could talk. There are plenty of middle income groups in the rich and developing world not availing of iPhones because - absent of the subsidy - it is too expensive. The same would be true of the US were there no subsidy. As for the present day "poor" - Chinas wages are growing at 10% a year, that doubles every 7 years. Ignore that market and you are doomed.
Quote:
Actually, what I'm trying to get across here, is that it's NOT about price! It's about "features" that Apple will probably never make available on their phones, such as swappable SD cards or batteries. Add the big screen "advantage" and you're asking Apple to put out a device the likes of which they have never offered in the past... that they or the dev's make NO future income on... that is BETTER for some use-case scenarios than the iPhone 5.... and for €300,-???? What are you smoking?!?!
Its funny that Apple fans who oppose the "dilution of the brand" sound like Android apologists. Apple will never do well in Germany because of lack of swappable SD cards and batteries. What? Is that saying that Android does it right? Clearly ignoring the clear fact that Apple doesn't have these features in the US and has 40-50% of the market depending on which market share figures you trust.
The facts are simple. Apple is 50% in the US because it is cheaper in the US because of the higher subsidy. This proves the elasticity of the iPhone market. If Apple is not too late, and the Android system is not too entrenched, it has a chance to get there or thereabouts in rich countries, and maybe 50% overall, and the time to do that is now.
@Asdasd , prove Apple had a high profit share in the early 90s. Sculley was trying to increase market share and profit share. He released numerous Mac models (various performa models, powermac models). He tried to make a price point umbrella but confused consumers. Soon they wereny selling and market share dwindled and profits dwindled. Enter Spindler in the mid 90s who wanted market share and licensed Mac OS failing to realize Apple made more money on its hardware. He failed.
My eldest brother had a PM7200, 2nd oldest had a Mac clone, I had a PM7500, youngest had a performa.
iOS is the platform and that includes iPads.
He failed for multiple reasons but more importantly it was too late. You play the segments game of a commoditised market BEFORE you lose all of youre market shares, not after.
Apple definitively still leads high end market and they haven't disconnect to market changes. There is perhaps only one characteristic or functionality, where they most probably don't have product portfolio that would completely fit the market needs at the time. I think other companies are making much more nonsense in that sense, however I am displeased with believing Apple lost some opportunities.
TV, gaming and wearable devices will be a game changer when Apple releases product in those areas. Everything I have seen up to now makes no sense of whatsoever and sales confirms it.
Things on Wall Street can get ugly, of course, because WS is at the edge of being criminal enterprise. What they are doing right now is deliberately downplaying Apple despite of tremendous results in existing areas that will not vane in the future as well, while waiting for "next big thing" to inflate AAPL bubble again. In the mean time the pour the money to GOOG. Where do you think they will take money from and pour it to AAPL, when Apple releases for example iTV?
So, I know Apple wasn't able to address market with proper product line for undisclosed reasons. THey know it as well. However, WS crap has nothing to do with it. They are above everybody, they will do what they want, they run the world....
Dont want to burst youre bubble but according to sales estimates (people here are going to denied them of course) Samsung is shipping more S3/S4 than the estimated sales of the iphone 5. So, Samsung alone is beating Apple on the high end market on unit sales.
Apple is selling less units YoY in a growing market , how can fanboys still maintain everything is peachy is beyond me. Well Wallstreet are not fanboys, sales are down, margins are downs while Apple is just standing still doing nothing for 7 months now. Stock is going down for a reason. To top if off Wall street is losing faith in Apple to innovate or enter new markets, because, well so far they are not.
I will personnaly keep my option leaps that are at a great lost in hopes I can get back some of the $, but you can bet that at break even at will get the hell out and I will never come back.
This is not the PC "Wars" of the 90's... and is not a mobile "war" today.
I dont agree, its the same thing all over again. The only difference now is its not too late yet. Any OS that cant maintain critical mass will lose its devs, then lose more market share in an infinite loop until only the fanboys remains or the company goes bankrupt.
On the plus side, Apple now is in more markets and as more $. So it wont died and could return at a later time. The stock on the other hand could collapse all the way down to mid 2000's level because it will always follow EPS.
Dont want to burst youre bubble but according to sales estimates (people here are going to denied them of course) Samsung is shipping more S3/S4 than the estimated sales of the iphone 5. So, Samsung alone is beating Apple on the high end market on unit sales.
Apple is selling less units YoY in a growing market , how can fanboys still maintain everything is peachy is beyond me. Well Wallstreet are not fanboys, sales are down, margins are downs while Apple is just standing still doing nothing for 7 months now. Stock is going down for a reason. To top if off Wall street is losing faith in Apple to innovate or enter new markets, because, well so far they are not.
I will personnaly keep my option leaps that are at a great lost in hopes I can get back some of the $, but you can bet that at break even at will get the hell out and I will never come back.
Why are you including both the GS3/GS4 for Sammy while comparing to just the 5? Fact: Apple sold 5MM iPhone 5s in one weekend.
Apple is not selling less units YOY. It's growth has slowed but raw units have not shrunk.
Omg, Apple hasn't introduced product for new markets? I remember when Jobs created markets every day if the week. WS aren't fanboys but they are gamblers.
Dont want to burst youre bubble but according to sales estimates (people here are going to denied them of course) Samsung is shipping more S3/S4 than the estimated sales of the iphone 5. So, Samsung alone is beating Apple on the high end market on unit sales.
Apple is selling less units YoY in a growing market , how can fanboys still maintain everything is peachy is beyond me. Well Wallstreet are not fanboys, sales are down, margins are downs while Apple is just standing still doing nothing for 7 months now. Stock is going down for a reason. To top if off Wall street is losing faith in Apple to innovate or enter new markets, because, well so far they are not.
I will personnaly keep my option leaps that are at a great lost in hopes I can get back some of the $, but you can bet that at break even at will get the hell out and I will never come back.
IF you count together S3 and S4 then you should count together iPhone 5 and 4S at least, if not 4 as well... So, Samsung is NOT outselling Apple in Apple's courtyard. However, I agree, share is falling, which I find normal.
While APple doesn't own technology in manufacturing, Samsung can do almost what pleases it. However, they do it poorly. They spray the market with sub-machinegun fire and while hitting many, most of them stay alive and can run off battlefield at any time. Apple on the other side is going in another extreme, firing with bolt-action sniper, taking out less, but every hit takes out. Smart way is to take assault rifle and hit and take out as much at the same time. Still, Apple was never "smart" in that sense, so the only thing we can expect from them are good products. SOmetimes this may hit the market like blockbuster when early adoption is on the way, sometimes not.
I still believe Apple will release some very good stuff in this year, but everybody knows it will not be the next big thing. That is why criminals in WS are downplaying AAPL and actually disregarding EPS or at least having special EPS criteria for Apple. Apple is company full of emotions and surrounded with emotions. While this may keep customer loyal, this is very non-constructive for the stock market, because criminals at WS are using emotions for stock manipulation.
My current loss on AAPL is almost 30K and I found out a LOT about AAPL and WS just because of that. Bottom line: If I come down to 10K, I am out as well.
I dont agree, its the same thing all over again. The only difference now is its not too late yet. Any OS that cant maintain critical mass will lose its devs, then lose more market share in an infinite loop until only the fanboys remains or the company goes bankrupt.
On the plus side, Apple now is in more markets and as more $. So it wont died and could return at a later time. The stock on the other hand could collapse all the way down to mid 2000's level because it will always follow EPS.
No. It is not the same. You might want to check out some of the developers blogs since WWDC. They all seem to be really... REALLY enthused with iOS.
I also doubt very much if you can find even one serious iOS developer of even a middle of the road App, that has jumped to only developing for Android.
It also appears that Apple is paying out more and more to developers, thus I would think that there's still a lot of growth within the App store. While with Android, the majority of the developer payouts are going to those with ports from iOS apps.
You receive potatoes for your iOS app... and gravy from Android. I don't expect that to change any time soon in the Western app stores. The other 500+ Android stores? Who knows if any one is making money... and truthfully... who cares?
Comments
Quote:
Pure BS! Sorry...because I am your dad's age and lived through it. The one thing you get right in that little re-write of history, is that the developers left the Mac for Windows. Well actually, they didn't leave or migrate, they specifically decided to develop for MS Windows because... THAT'S where the money was in the enterprise software business and games. Businesses at the time were still IBM shops for the most part with IBM compatibles. Apple didn't play so well in that environment, and they never went that route. They also left games on the table as well, concentrating on the graphic arts and printing industry. Which BTW at the time, was a "professional" niche to be sure, but we were willing to pay those "high" prices, considering traditional typesetting machines of the day cost like $50,000. Also don't forget that very few households had a PC until about the turn of the century, relatively speaking.
We both lived through it. Apple were never going to win the enterprise market but they could have won the home market, however in 1992 they were selling high end machines for $5000. 40Mhz of raw speed, though. That was when they should have reduced prices for the home market - todays "poor". The home market had, after all been big in the 1980's until it collapsed. And how would games be a thing to develop for it there was no home market? One existed, it was very high end, but Apple with a friendly OS should have targeted the middle income groups, not the rich, when Windows 1995 came out it was game over.
And, as I said it was in the mid to but mainly late 90's when they started to produce too many models. See this graph here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Macintosh_models
But nobody is asking for 20 models, just 3-4 and cheaper. They had enough in 1992.
Quote:
Apple tried to go the markeshare route with a wide assortment of Macs... and licensing of the OS... and it almost tanked them. Margins had nothing to do with it. Once again, it was because everybody had jumped on the Windows bandwagon... NOT... because it was better, but because MS did the right thing with pretty decent developer tools. Also don't forget that MS "allowed" Windows to be pirated to gain a lot of that marketshare... similar to drug dealers giving out samples.
once again your timeline is wrong. They licensed in the late 90's when their market share had already dropped. That was stupid. The clear time to make inroads into the market was 1990-1994, with fewer cheaper models. By 1995, Apple Macintosh computers accounted for around 7% of the worldwide desktop computer market. Apple executives decided to launch an official clone program in order to expand Macintosh market penetration.
In short, too late. They should have tried to win market when they had a chance in the early 1990s.
Quote:
Middle income soon: you bet. They already aspire to own an iPhone now.... and when the time and financials are right for them, they will own one.
First choice of developers: Apple is and I don't see that changing soon... because it's where they make the money to continue developing. Simple.
And you are forgetting something else - Macs were the first choice of developers in the 1980's for many products, including MicroSoft's own products. Adobe. And so on. Better API, smaller but richer user base. Then they left. Can you think why?
Quote:
Devices for the poor: why? They offer nothing to the developers... and in many cases, a Dev just porting an App to Android is asking for it to be pirated immediately, rather than some poor kid in China doing the dirty work. Android offers some decent stuff on the Google Play Store... HOWEVER... there are 500+ other app stores out there for Android, where Google and the Western developers receive squat! These demographics don't want Apple for the very REASON that you must have an Apple ID. Many of the carrier Androids actually do billing for Apps on the PAYG invoice... if and when someone wants, say WhatsApp. Apple will never allow that, nor should they.
I'll ignore the Americanocentric bias about "thieving furrieners"
By "poor" ( which I didn't user but lets go with it) I mean middle income in the developing world, and pretty much middle income in Europe too. Not that Americans are much richer than Europeans - in fact incomes have stalled in the US since 1972. The only reason Apple is winning in the US isn't because you are richer but you are subsidized by the carriers. If the entry level phone were $199 and the iPhone 5 $399 then we could talk. There are plenty of middle income groups in the rich and developing world not availing of iPhones because - absent of the subsidy - it is too expensive. The same would be true of the US were there no subsidy. As for the present day "poor" - Chinas wages are growing at 10% a year, that doubles every 7 years. Ignore that market and you are doomed.
Quote:
Actually, what I'm trying to get across here, is that it's NOT about price! It's about "features" that Apple will probably never make available on their phones, such as swappable SD cards or batteries. Add the big screen "advantage" and you're asking Apple to put out a device the likes of which they have never offered in the past... that they or the dev's make NO future income on... that is BETTER for some use-case scenarios than the iPhone 5.... and for €300,-???? What are you smoking?!?!
Its funny that Apple fans who oppose the "dilution of the brand" sound like Android apologists. Apple will never do well in Germany because of lack of swappable SD cards and batteries. What? Is that saying that Android does it right? Clearly ignoring the clear fact that Apple doesn't have these features in the US and has 40-50% of the market depending on which market share figures you trust.
The facts are simple. Apple is 50% in the US because it is cheaper in the US because of the higher subsidy. This proves the elasticity of the iPhone market. If Apple is not too late, and the Android system is not too entrenched, it has a chance to get there or thereabouts in rich countries, and maybe 50% overall, and the time to do that is now.
[insert obvious screw you reference with a middle finger]
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark
@Asdasd , prove Apple had a high profit share in the early 90s. Sculley was trying to increase market share and profit share. He released numerous Mac models (various performa models, powermac models). He tried to make a price point umbrella but confused consumers. Soon they wereny selling and market share dwindled and profits dwindled. Enter Spindler in the mid 90s who wanted market share and licensed Mac OS failing to realize Apple made more money on its hardware. He failed.
My eldest brother had a PM7200, 2nd oldest had a Mac clone, I had a PM7500, youngest had a performa.
iOS is the platform and that includes iPads.
He failed for multiple reasons but more importantly it was too late. You play the segments game of a commoditised market BEFORE you lose all of youre market shares, not after.
Quote:
Originally Posted by poksi
Apple definitively still leads high end market and they haven't disconnect to market changes. There is perhaps only one characteristic or functionality, where they most probably don't have product portfolio that would completely fit the market needs at the time. I think other companies are making much more nonsense in that sense, however I am displeased with believing Apple lost some opportunities.
TV, gaming and wearable devices will be a game changer when Apple releases product in those areas. Everything I have seen up to now makes no sense of whatsoever and sales confirms it.
Things on Wall Street can get ugly, of course, because WS is at the edge of being criminal enterprise. What they are doing right now is deliberately downplaying Apple despite of tremendous results in existing areas that will not vane in the future as well, while waiting for "next big thing" to inflate AAPL bubble again. In the mean time the pour the money to GOOG. Where do you think they will take money from and pour it to AAPL, when Apple releases for example iTV?
So, I know Apple wasn't able to address market with proper product line for undisclosed reasons. THey know it as well. However, WS crap has nothing to do with it. They are above everybody, they will do what they want, they run the world....
Dont want to burst youre bubble but according to sales estimates (people here are going to denied them of course) Samsung is shipping more S3/S4 than the estimated sales of the iphone 5. So, Samsung alone is beating Apple on the high end market on unit sales.
Apple is selling less units YoY in a growing market , how can fanboys still maintain everything is peachy is beyond me. Well Wallstreet are not fanboys, sales are down, margins are downs while Apple is just standing still doing nothing for 7 months now. Stock is going down for a reason. To top if off Wall street is losing faith in Apple to innovate or enter new markets, because, well so far they are not.
I will personnaly keep my option leaps that are at a great lost in hopes I can get back some of the $, but you can bet that at break even at will get the hell out and I will never come back.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePixelDoc
This is not the PC "Wars" of the 90's... and is not a mobile "war" today.
I dont agree, its the same thing all over again. The only difference now is its not too late yet. Any OS that cant maintain critical mass will lose its devs, then lose more market share in an infinite loop until only the fanboys remains or the company goes bankrupt.
On the plus side, Apple now is in more markets and as more $. So it wont died and could return at a later time. The stock on the other hand could collapse all the way down to mid 2000's level because it will always follow EPS.
Why are you including both the GS3/GS4 for Sammy while comparing to just the 5? Fact: Apple sold 5MM iPhone 5s in one weekend.
Apple is not selling less units YOY. It's growth has slowed but raw units have not shrunk.
Omg, Apple hasn't introduced product for new markets? I remember when Jobs created markets every day if the week. WS aren't fanboys but they are gamblers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by herbapou
Dont want to burst youre bubble but according to sales estimates (people here are going to denied them of course) Samsung is shipping more S3/S4 than the estimated sales of the iphone 5. So, Samsung alone is beating Apple on the high end market on unit sales.
Apple is selling less units YoY in a growing market , how can fanboys still maintain everything is peachy is beyond me. Well Wallstreet are not fanboys, sales are down, margins are downs while Apple is just standing still doing nothing for 7 months now. Stock is going down for a reason. To top if off Wall street is losing faith in Apple to innovate or enter new markets, because, well so far they are not.
I will personnaly keep my option leaps that are at a great lost in hopes I can get back some of the $, but you can bet that at break even at will get the hell out and I will never come back.
IF you count together S3 and S4 then you should count together iPhone 5 and 4S at least, if not 4 as well... So, Samsung is NOT outselling Apple in Apple's courtyard. However, I agree, share is falling, which I find normal.
While APple doesn't own technology in manufacturing, Samsung can do almost what pleases it. However, they do it poorly. They spray the market with sub-machinegun fire and while hitting many, most of them stay alive and can run off battlefield at any time. Apple on the other side is going in another extreme, firing with bolt-action sniper, taking out less, but every hit takes out. Smart way is to take assault rifle and hit and take out as much at the same time. Still, Apple was never "smart" in that sense, so the only thing we can expect from them are good products. SOmetimes this may hit the market like blockbuster when early adoption is on the way, sometimes not.
I still believe Apple will release some very good stuff in this year, but everybody knows it will not be the next big thing. That is why criminals in WS are downplaying AAPL and actually disregarding EPS or at least having special EPS criteria for Apple. Apple is company full of emotions and surrounded with emotions. While this may keep customer loyal, this is very non-constructive for the stock market, because criminals at WS are using emotions for stock manipulation.
My current loss on AAPL is almost 30K and I found out a LOT about AAPL and WS just because of that. Bottom line: If I come down to 10K, I am out as well.
No. It is not the same. You might want to check out some of the developers blogs since WWDC. They all seem to be really... REALLY enthused with iOS.
I also doubt very much if you can find even one serious iOS developer of even a middle of the road App, that has jumped to only developing for Android.
It also appears that Apple is paying out more and more to developers, thus I would think that there's still a lot of growth within the App store. While with Android, the majority of the developer payouts are going to those with ports from iOS apps.
You receive potatoes for your iOS app... and gravy from Android. I don't expect that to change any time soon in the Western app stores. The other 500+ Android stores? Who knows if any one is making money... and truthfully... who cares?