Doh!Coma is in denial that they are just a carrier.
Just like Apple was in denial that they were just a computer company when they decided to make the iPhone? We all know how that turned out. Are they the only one capable of creating a good user experience? Can a carrier put carrier specific apps in the app store? Is it much different than when a company hands out iPhones with it's proprietary software pre-installed?
I'll just assume you're being intentionally obtuse. It's been pointed out countless times, including in this thread, that the reason you can't delete them is because they are baked into the firmware, that they are baked into the firmware partly for historical reasons and, more importantly, a) because they provide services that other apps depend on, and b) they provide a minimally useful out of the box smartphone user experience without requiring a user to install additional apps.
If you're assuming I'm being intentionally obtuse then why I you bothering to explain this stuff to me. As it is, I don't know what your point is. I know all these things. I'm saying that Apple should change these things to allow it to be different?
Unbake them from the firmware.
Unentangle hard-coded services to allow things to continue working if some system apps are deleted.
Enable deleting them.
That's what I'm asking for. Maybe it's easy, maybe it's difficult, I don't know. Probably varies between apps - I doubt there's much dependant on Voice Memos, Stocks or Weather.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse
This isn't really that hard to understand, and the fact that you can point to others who apparently don't understand doesn't somehow make not understanding interesting. You might as well ask, "why can't I delete location services?" or, "why can't I delete WiFi networking?" Those are equally ignorant questions.
Location services and wi-fi networking can be turned off, and reside in Settings.app well out of the way. It's not the same thing.
You are not the majority. Stating "some" users use Safari and Mail could not be further from the truth.
some
/s?m/
Pronoun
An unspecified number or amount of people or things
I don't use them, so it's clearly not all. You use them so it's clearly not none. I have no definitive information about where between those extremes the real number lies. QED, "some."
Maybe "most" would be more precise, but I really can't be bothered with that level of pedantry. Get over it.
An unspecified number or amount of people or things
I don't use them, so it's clearly not all. You use them so it's clearly not none. I have no definitive information about where between those extremes the real number lies. QED, "some."
Maybe "most" would be more precise, but I really can't be bothered with that level of pedantry. Get over it.
Now you're becoming a bore. Next you'll announce your move to Symbian.
If you're assuming I'm being intentionally obtuse then why I you bothering to explain this stuff to me. As it is, I don't know what your point is. I know all these things. I'm saying that Apple should change these things to allow it to be different?
Unbake them from the firmware.
Unentangle hard-coded services to allow things to continue working if some system apps are deleted.
Enable deleting them.
That's what I'm asking for. Maybe it's easy, maybe it's difficult, I don't know. Probably varies between apps - I doubt there's much dependant on Voice Memos, Stocks or Weather.
Location services and wi-fi networking can be turned off, and reside in Settings.app well out of the way. It's not the same thing.
You seemed to have (intentionally) missed the part about their being there because other apps depend on them being there to provide services. And, it is the same thing, apps depend on the services, deleting them would break the behavior of many, if not most, other apps, just like removing location services and WiFi would.
So, maybe you aren't being obtuse, but that only leaves one other alternative.
"I TRIED TO DRAW A *#$%^#* CIRCLE WITH IT AND IT WOULDN'T CIRCLE."
TS, I've got TONS of real life stories being in the computer reseller industry that make you laugh.
I worked at one large reseller and there was a female sales rep that knew nothing about technology, but her strengths were elsewhere (I don't need to further explain).
The Mac II had JUST been recently announced and they were talking about multitasking, etc. She was talking to a customer and I was sitting right next to them so I couldn't help by overhear, but she was trying to tell the customer that the mac could have two people using the same computer at the same time since you could have two monitors connected to it. I almost lost it. I had to correct her on it and had to do it about the most eloquent way possible as to not piss her off in front of the customer.
This was around the same time when some older woman was going to a training session at our office and they went to the show room playing around with the mouse because they've never seen one, and the cursor didn't move because they hit the edge of the table dragging the mouse and decided they needed to pick up the mouse and put it on the floor to get the cursor to move. I almost lost it. The older woman was being so befuddled, I couldn't help but show her how it worked and she realized how dumb her first idea was, but she laughed and thought it was the coolest thing she'd ever seen.
I used to talk to tech support people and a lot of the calls were solved by telling the customer to actually plug the computer in the wall and turn it on first(non-platform specific). I don't know if it's the most popular problem, but it was back in the 80's.
It's quite possible to "delete" Apples apps without affecting the underlying system services, but it's ridiculous for any reason of space. The system services are already separate to the point that the apps themselves are just shells around them with UI for non-system service parts.
For example Maps is a shell around MapKit with UI for its alerts, bookmarks, and cards.
Safari is a system only version of UIWebView with bookmarks and tabs.
So trying to delete them for purposes of space is pretty insignificant. However hiding them is totally possible. Use system restrictions for some of that. Otherwise a JB is necessary. Apple could quite simply allow those apps to be hidden and that would suit almost everyone who wants to get rid of them. For all intents and purposes its the same thing.
You seemed to have (intentionally) missed the part about their being there because other apps depend on them being there to provide services. And, it is the same thing, apps depend on the services, deleting them would break the behavior of many, if not most, other apps, just like removing location services and WiFi would.
So, maybe you aren't being obtuse, but that only leaves one other alternative.
Did you not read this bit:
"Unentangle hard-coded services to allow things to continue working if some system apps are deleted."
The registering of services also needs developing, as has been well documented by other commentators. If an app offers to "Open in Safari" then it should also be able to open in iCab, or Chrome, or Opera. Once that registering of apps for services works then deleting Safari (or iCab, or Chrome) should just remove the service option. No problem.
If you're talking about something different then you'll need to explain more, because I don't know what dependencies you're talking about.
I hope DoCoMo chokes on an Apple core. Apple should hold steadfast and not give in an inch. DoCoMo thinks those Android smartphones are so wonderful, well then good for them. I hope when all the consumers start raving about how good iOS 7 is, that DoCoMo cries tears of blood. They say the Galaxy S4 is better than the iPhone so let's see how well that claim holds up when SoftBank hits DoCoMo with an iPhone sledgehammer. No DoCoMo logos on the iPhone, please. Take your dumb pipe and shove it.
"Unentangle hard-coded services to allow things to continue working if some system apps are deleted."
The registering of services also needs developing, as has been well documented by other commentators. If an app offers to "Open in Safari" then it should also be able to open in iCab, or Chrome, or Opera. Once that registering of apps for services works then deleting Safari (or iCab, or Chrome) should just remove the service option. No problem.
If you're talking about something different then you'll need to explain more, because I don't know what dependencies you're talking about.
Unfortunately for your point, people don't have iCab, Chrome or Opera on their phones out of the box. So, in your scenario, people would essentially have to spend a few hours browsing and downloading all the apps they need from the App Store before they could really do anything useful on their phone. Or, say they download Chrome, delete Safari, then somehow for some reason delete Chrome, now, again, things aren't working so well. The same goes for Mail, and a number of other apps that are "baked in".
Yes, Apple could not include these apps, or not bake them in, but it's simply better that they do. The idea that there shouldn't be any "hard coded" (to use your term) services boils down to saying there shouldn't be any guaranteed functionality, which doesn't really make any sense.
Unfortunately for your point, people don't have iCab, Chrome or Opera on their phones out of the box. So, in your scenario, people would essentially have to spend a few hours browsing and downloading all the apps they need from the App Store before they could really do anything useful on their phone. Or, say they download Chrome, delete Safari, then somehow for some reason delete Chrome, now, again, things aren't working so well. The same goes for Mail, and a number of other apps that are "baked in".
Yes, Apple could not include these apps, or not bake them in, but it's simply better that they do. The idea that there shouldn't be any "hard coded" (to use your term) services boils down to saying there shouldn't be any guaranteed functionality, which doesn't really make any sense.
I can understand no carrier logos but what's the difference between a company that pre installs proprietary software on the iPhones it gives to it's employees and what NTT wants to do? It's just on a grander scale. Google Play does allow carrier specific apps but I'm guessing that the app store does not.
Unfortunately for your point, people don't have iCab, Chrome or Opera on their phones out of the box. So, in your scenario, people would essentially have to spend a few hours browsing and downloading all the apps they need from the App Store before they could really do anything useful on their phone.
Not at all. I'm not saying get rid of Safari, Mail and the others. I'm just saying allow the user to delete them if they want. And furthermore, give the user a services framework so that they can effectively replace them with other apps fulfilling similar functional purposes from the app store. If the user wants to spend a few hours configuring their phone how they want it, with the apps they prefer, then allow them to. Other users who want to work the Apple way have an experience straight out of the box. Both are fine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse
Or, say they download Chrome, delete Safari, then somehow for some reason delete Chrome, now, again, things aren't working so well. The same goes for Mail, and a number of other apps that are "baked in".
Don't see why that's a problem, the service of "Open in Safari" (or Chrome) or "Send Mail" (using Mail.app) simply becomes unavailable. You can't browse the web without a browser, and you can't email without an email client. Pretty simple.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse
Yes, Apple could not include these apps, or not bake them in, but it's simply better that they do. The idea that there shouldn't be any "hard coded" (to use your term) services boils down to saying there shouldn't be any guaranteed functionality, which doesn't really make any sense.
I think you're arguing against a proposition that Apple should remove all apps from the iPhone. I've never said anything like that, the idea is pretty ridiculous. I've simply said that the user should be able to remove the apps that they don't want. If that threatens to break hard-coded cross-app functionality then that functionality should be rewritten to be more flexible, since it's a fair bet that if I delete Mail.app I have no interest in seeing the option to Mail in a share sheet.
"Guaranteed functionality" is a nicer way of saying undeleteable bloatware from a different perspective.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley
... I can't see how anyone can get anything useful out of Compass. ...
Really? You don't understand what a compass is useful for and you think that's interesting? Well, it is, but not in the way you think.
You are not the majority. Stating "some" users use Safari and Mail could not be further from the truth.
Just like Apple was in denial that they were just a computer company when they decided to make the iPhone? We all know how that turned out. Are they the only one capable of creating a good user experience? Can a carrier put carrier specific apps in the app store? Is it much different than when a company hands out iPhones with it's proprietary software pre-installed?
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse
I'll just assume you're being intentionally obtuse. It's been pointed out countless times, including in this thread, that the reason you can't delete them is because they are baked into the firmware, that they are baked into the firmware partly for historical reasons and, more importantly, a) because they provide services that other apps depend on, and b) they provide a minimally useful out of the box smartphone user experience without requiring a user to install additional apps.
If you're assuming I'm being intentionally obtuse then why I you bothering to explain this stuff to me. As it is, I don't know what your point is. I know all these things. I'm saying that Apple should change these things to allow it to be different?
Unbake them from the firmware.
Unentangle hard-coded services to allow things to continue working if some system apps are deleted.
Enable deleting them.
That's what I'm asking for. Maybe it's easy, maybe it's difficult, I don't know. Probably varies between apps - I doubt there's much dependant on Voice Memos, Stocks or Weather.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse
This isn't really that hard to understand, and the fact that you can point to others who apparently don't understand doesn't somehow make not understanding interesting. You might as well ask, "why can't I delete location services?" or, "why can't I delete WiFi networking?" Those are equally ignorant questions.
Location services and wi-fi networking can be turned off, and reside in Settings.app well out of the way. It's not the same thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse
Really? You don't understand what a compass is useful for and you think that's interesting? Well, it is, but not in the way you think.
No idea what you're talking about. Do you use Compass.app often?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark
You are not the majority. Stating "some" users use Safari and Mail could not be further from the truth.
some
/s?m/
Pronoun
An unspecified number or amount of people or things
I don't use them, so it's clearly not all. You use them so it's clearly not none. I have no definitive information about where between those extremes the real number lies. QED, "some."
Maybe "most" would be more precise, but I really can't be bothered with that level of pedantry. Get over it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley
some
/s?m/
Pronoun
An unspecified number or amount of people or things
I don't use them, so it's clearly not all. You use them so it's clearly not none. I have no definitive information about where between those extremes the real number lies. QED, "some."
Maybe "most" would be more precise, but I really can't be bothered with that level of pedantry. Get over it.
Now you're becoming a bore. Next you'll announce your move to Symbian.
Cheers
Cheers
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley
If you're assuming I'm being intentionally obtuse then why I you bothering to explain this stuff to me. As it is, I don't know what your point is. I know all these things. I'm saying that Apple should change these things to allow it to be different?
Unbake them from the firmware.
Unentangle hard-coded services to allow things to continue working if some system apps are deleted.
Enable deleting them.
That's what I'm asking for. Maybe it's easy, maybe it's difficult, I don't know. Probably varies between apps - I doubt there's much dependant on Voice Memos, Stocks or Weather.
Location services and wi-fi networking can be turned off, and reside in Settings.app well out of the way. It's not the same thing.
You seemed to have (intentionally) missed the part about their being there because other apps depend on them being there to provide services. And, it is the same thing, apps depend on the services, deleting them would break the behavior of many, if not most, other apps, just like removing location services and WiFi would.
So, maybe you aren't being obtuse, but that only leaves one other alternative.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley
No idea what you're talking about. Do you use Compass.app often?
Yes, I do, it's a very handy app to have, if you know what a compass is for.
"And why are you returning your iPhone today?"
"I TRIED TO DRAW A *#$%^#* CIRCLE WITH IT AND IT WOULDN'T CIRCLE."
Wit's not your strong suit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
"And why are you returning your iPhone today?"
"I TRIED TO DRAW A *#$%^#* CIRCLE WITH IT AND IT WOULDN'T CIRCLE."
TS, I've got TONS of real life stories being in the computer reseller industry that make you laugh.
I worked at one large reseller and there was a female sales rep that knew nothing about technology, but her strengths were elsewhere (I don't need to further explain).
The Mac II had JUST been recently announced and they were talking about multitasking, etc. She was talking to a customer and I was sitting right next to them so I couldn't help by overhear, but she was trying to tell the customer that the mac could have two people using the same computer at the same time since you could have two monitors connected to it. I almost lost it. I had to correct her on it and had to do it about the most eloquent way possible as to not piss her off in front of the customer.
This was around the same time when some older woman was going to a training session at our office and they went to the show room playing around with the mouse because they've never seen one, and the cursor didn't move because they hit the edge of the table dragging the mouse and decided they needed to pick up the mouse and put it on the floor to get the cursor to move. I almost lost it. The older woman was being so befuddled, I couldn't help but show her how it worked and she realized how dumb her first idea was, but she laughed and thought it was the coolest thing she'd ever seen.
I used to talk to tech support people and a lot of the calls were solved by telling the customer to actually plug the computer in the wall and turn it on first(non-platform specific). I don't know if it's the most popular problem, but it was back in the 80's.
For example Maps is a shell around MapKit with UI for its alerts, bookmarks, and cards.
Safari is a system only version of UIWebView with bookmarks and tabs.
So trying to delete them for purposes of space is pretty insignificant. However hiding them is totally possible. Use system restrictions for some of that. Otherwise a JB is necessary. Apple could quite simply allow those apps to be hidden and that would suit almost everyone who wants to get rid of them. For all intents and purposes its the same thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse
You seemed to have (intentionally) missed the part about their being there because other apps depend on them being there to provide services. And, it is the same thing, apps depend on the services, deleting them would break the behavior of many, if not most, other apps, just like removing location services and WiFi would.
So, maybe you aren't being obtuse, but that only leaves one other alternative.
Did you not read this bit:
"Unentangle hard-coded services to allow things to continue working if some system apps are deleted."
The registering of services also needs developing, as has been well documented by other commentators. If an app offers to "Open in Safari" then it should also be able to open in iCab, or Chrome, or Opera. Once that registering of apps for services works then deleting Safari (or iCab, or Chrome) should just remove the service option. No problem.
If you're talking about something different then you'll need to explain more, because I don't know what dependencies you're talking about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley
Did you not read this bit:
"Unentangle hard-coded services to allow things to continue working if some system apps are deleted."
The registering of services also needs developing, as has been well documented by other commentators. If an app offers to "Open in Safari" then it should also be able to open in iCab, or Chrome, or Opera. Once that registering of apps for services works then deleting Safari (or iCab, or Chrome) should just remove the service option. No problem.
If you're talking about something different then you'll need to explain more, because I don't know what dependencies you're talking about.
Unfortunately for your point, people don't have iCab, Chrome or Opera on their phones out of the box. So, in your scenario, people would essentially have to spend a few hours browsing and downloading all the apps they need from the App Store before they could really do anything useful on their phone. Or, say they download Chrome, delete Safari, then somehow for some reason delete Chrome, now, again, things aren't working so well. The same goes for Mail, and a number of other apps that are "baked in".
Yes, Apple could not include these apps, or not bake them in, but it's simply better that they do. The idea that there shouldn't be any "hard coded" (to use your term) services boils down to saying there shouldn't be any guaranteed functionality, which doesn't really make any sense.
You saying this makes sense, given the level of intelligence of your other posts.
I can understand no carrier logos but what's the difference between a company that pre installs proprietary software on the iPhones it gives to it's employees and what NTT wants to do? It's just on a grander scale. Google Play does allow carrier specific apps but I'm guessing that the app store does not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse
Unfortunately for your point, people don't have iCab, Chrome or Opera on their phones out of the box. So, in your scenario, people would essentially have to spend a few hours browsing and downloading all the apps they need from the App Store before they could really do anything useful on their phone.
Not at all. I'm not saying get rid of Safari, Mail and the others. I'm just saying allow the user to delete them if they want. And furthermore, give the user a services framework so that they can effectively replace them with other apps fulfilling similar functional purposes from the app store. If the user wants to spend a few hours configuring their phone how they want it, with the apps they prefer, then allow them to. Other users who want to work the Apple way have an experience straight out of the box. Both are fine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse
Or, say they download Chrome, delete Safari, then somehow for some reason delete Chrome, now, again, things aren't working so well. The same goes for Mail, and a number of other apps that are "baked in".
Don't see why that's a problem, the service of "Open in Safari" (or Chrome) or "Send Mail" (using Mail.app) simply becomes unavailable. You can't browse the web without a browser, and you can't email without an email client. Pretty simple.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse
Yes, Apple could not include these apps, or not bake them in, but it's simply better that they do. The idea that there shouldn't be any "hard coded" (to use your term) services boils down to saying there shouldn't be any guaranteed functionality, which doesn't really make any sense.
I think you're arguing against a proposition that Apple should remove all apps from the iPhone. I've never said anything like that, the idea is pretty ridiculous. I've simply said that the user should be able to remove the apps that they don't want. If that threatens to break hard-coded cross-app functionality then that functionality should be rewritten to be more flexible, since it's a fair bet that if I delete Mail.app I have no interest in seeing the option to Mail in a share sheet.
"Guaranteed functionality" is a nicer way of saying undeleteable bloatware from a different perspective.