The US has been requiring biometric features in passports for every foreigner entering the US (in addition they also take the finger prints of every foreigner entering the US, at every entry, every time and they store those fingerprints). ...
Sorry, but this isn't true at all. I know lots of folks that go to the states all the time and they don't get fingerprinted at the border.
Also, very few other countries (including most "western" countries) have biometric passports of any kind.
You are saying that those people don't get in at all? The implication from your statement is that the US is closed except to the "foreigners" of two or three nations, worldwide.
The sensor from Authentech does not provide a traditional fingerprint read; it provides a unique biometric that the system can use to confirm is yours. In fact, it likely only stores a hash of the measurement to compare with. I doubt the fingerprint details ever get out of the sensor for a hacker to even read.
Besides, anyone who wants your fingerprint can get it off just about anything you touch. Red Solo cups (and some beer) and I have your fingerprint.
Correct. And the hash is mathematically one-way. You cannot derive the fingerprint from it.
Sorry, but this isn't true at all. I know lots of folks that go to the states all the time and they don't get fingerprinted at the border.
Also, very few other countries (including most "western" countries) have biometric passports of any kind.
You are saying that those people don't get in at all? The implication from your statement is that the US is closed except to the "foreigners" of two or three nations, worldwide.
Everybody I had seen in the non-resident lines at immigration at US airports had to put their fingers on a fingerprint scanner. I've also heard it from a lot of other people. But my sample is necessarily small. It could be that this was only for people without a biometric passport. While the US is requiring biometric passports for visa-free entry, they gave a fairly long grace period such that I can still go there without one but when my current passport expires (which it does next year), the new one will have biometric features.
Initially, only visitors who required a visa inserted in their passport were included in the US-VISIT program. However, since September 30, 2004, visitors eligible for the Visa Waiver Program have also been required to use the US-VISIT program. Beginning January 18, 2009, most non-U.S. citizens (including lawful permanent residents) are subject to US-VISIT requirements.
For more than five years, Department of State consular officers and U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) officers have been collecting biometrics—two digital fingerprints and a photograph—from all non-U.S. citizens between the ages of 14 and 79, with some exceptions, when they apply for visas or arrive at U.S. ports of entry.
(One of the exceptions is for Canadians.)
And have a look at this map from Wikipedia, your statement that "very few other countries (including most Western countries) have biometric passports of any kind" could not be further from the truth:
Interesting. Perhaps most interesting of all to me is where are the part leaks for such a button? I hope this means that Apple can still keep a supply chain secret - even if this specific rumors turns out to be untrue!
The button will work as always. The seemless sensor tech built into the button for finger print verification would work as a secondary piece of functionality required to unlock the system if put in a locked state.
KDarling, you should definitely send Apple an email with your concerns, which took you a few seconds of think of. No doubt over the years and months of developing implementing, and testing this technology, that they certainly did not think of or test any of these fundamental concepts on a device that will sell in the hundreds of millions. Almost every single major decision that Apple has ever taken was defined as a "terrible idea" by armchair CEOs everywhere- after which these decisions and concepts became massive successes with none of the issue that people concerned-trolled about. One would think you would have a bit more humility than having absolute confidence that all these things are "terrible ideas", without having a second of hands-on knowledge about any of them, and knowing that Apple has spent thousands of hours of testing.
you are assuming that Apple is actually doing all this, disregarding that this is just a rumor from someone who hasn‘t seen the device! Most arguments are about whether the rumor as presented is logical.
It doesn‘t seem logical. It would not be easy to shape a convex sapphire slice, and a convex (or concave) shape hinders scan reproducibility because it deforms the finger unevenly. I also doubt that the actual sensor could take a convex or concave shape
A convex button within a concave space may be the way to go when it comes to accidental clicking.
Not quite sure what you mean, but a recessed convex button whose peak is flush with the flat surface would most certainly prevent accidental clicking but would also welcome in lots of dirt and debris.
It is a nice feature to add but not really a wow! feature. Do't get me wrong in that I think it will be useful and a nice differentiator from other phones but I just can't see many people citing that as a reason to buy an iPhone 5S. I see more benefit from increasing the storage from 16GB to 32GB on the base model and improving the camera for most people than adding a fingerprint scanner.
I wouldn't mind an additional option of voice authentication with Siri. Maybe a short phrase. But right now I don't think Siri has that ability to do voice authentication but it could happen down the road as they improve the speech engine. Voice-recognition biometrics is much more reliable and secure and is already being used in the military, banking, and other sectors so no reason why it couldn't be added to Siri in the future.
Will the phone store your own fingerprint so it knows its you when you unlock the phone? If so, do we have assurances that no one will collect said fingerprints in a database?
It doesn't read a fingerprint, so it doesn't store a fingerprint.
Thank you very much for the link. Let me check if 25 microns would be thin enough. The capacitive/RF fingerprint sensor patents I've read mention one or two microns.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macky the Macky
Hello!!?? They ain't gonna be scanning no fingers, especially a whole finger!! The devices reads the biometrics in a wholly different way than looking at the ridges ON the finger's surface.
Assuming they're using an RF type of sensor, all it's doing is reading the tiniest bit deeper than, and not relying on air gaps like, DC capacitive scanners.
The problem is, a convex surface would deform the finger ridges and dermis underneath, in different ways each time. That's why scanners are flat. So a flat button sensor would make a lot more sense all around.
The original rumor article said:
Quote:
"By using a convex home button instead of the familiar concave design, Apple will be able to make room for the much rumored fingerprint sensor without losing precious internal space, according to well-informed KGI analyst Ming-Chi Kuo."
The button is already thick enough inside for a sensor (especially with a remote chip, as Authentec has patented). Going slightly convex is unnecessary, and ... as I pointed out before... would cause unnecessary extra problems with reading prints, creating a "sapphire layer" over it, and for users who opt out of the recognition.
Convex just doesn't make technical or practical sense for any currently known fingerprint sensor technology.
Also, the home button isn't big enough for a whole-finger scanner, so you'd need to swipe, and a raised button sounds like it would easily get clicked.
That was the thought that I had. Unless it isn't going to require a whole finger scan but just the main whorl, but how effective is that
I really do wonder if folks are taking this acquisitions implications way too far, at least at this point. Perhaps, for the moment, it has nothing to do with security is is for a more simplistic use like improving general screen response including palm rest type systems
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by noirdesir
The US has been requiring biometric features in passports for every foreigner entering the US (in addition they also take the finger prints of every foreigner entering the US, at every entry, every time and they store those fingerprints). ...
Sorry, but this isn't true at all. I know lots of folks that go to the states all the time and they don't get fingerprinted at the border.
Also, very few other countries (including most "western" countries) have biometric passports of any kind.
You are saying that those people don't get in at all? The implication from your statement is that the US is closed except to the "foreigners" of two or three nations, worldwide.
Originally Posted by Waikobloa
How much is the sapphire going to be worth?
It's not an actual sapphire…
Originally Posted by cwoloszynski
Please enlighten us.... I don't see the fail.
You will when an app locks up and you can't get out of it. Ever.
What if the raised button isn't a button?
It indeed is, it's just manfacturered instead of natural occurring.
Originally Posted by dasanman69
It indeed is, it's just manfacturered instead of natural occurring.
Yeah, not in the sense that he means.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee
Sorry, but this isn't true at all. I know lots of folks that go to the states all the time and they don't get fingerprinted at the border.
Also, very few other countries (including most "western" countries) have biometric passports of any kind.
You are saying that those people don't get in at all? The implication from your statement is that the US is closed except to the "foreigners" of two or three nations, worldwide.
Everybody I had seen in the non-resident lines at immigration at US airports had to put their fingers on a fingerprint scanner. I've also heard it from a lot of other people. But my sample is necessarily small. It could be that this was only for people without a biometric passport. While the US is requiring biometric passports for visa-free entry, they gave a fairly long grace period such that I can still go there without one but when my current passport expires (which it does next year), the new one will have biometric features.
EDIT: From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US-VISIT):
Initially, only visitors who required a visa inserted in their passport were included in the US-VISIT program. However, since September 30, 2004, visitors eligible for the Visa Waiver Program have also been required to use the US-VISIT program. Beginning January 18, 2009, most non-U.S. citizens (including lawful permanent residents) are subject to US-VISIT requirements.
EDIT 2: If you don't believe Wikipedia, here is .gov website (http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/usvisit/usvisit_edu_10-fingerprint_consumer_friendly_content_1400_words.pdf):
For more than five years, Department of State consular officers and U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) officers have been collecting biometrics—two digital fingerprints and a photograph—from all non-U.S. citizens between the ages of 14 and 79, with some exceptions, when they apply for visas or arrive at U.S. ports of entry.
(One of the exceptions is for Canadians.)
And have a look at this map from Wikipedia, your statement that "very few other countries (including most Western countries) have biometric passports of any kind" could not be further from the truth:
Interesting. Perhaps most interesting of all to me is where are the part leaks for such a button? I hope this means that Apple can still keep a supply chain secret - even if this specific rumors turns out to be untrue!
The button will work as always. The seemless sensor tech built into the button for finger print verification would work as a secondary piece of functionality required to unlock the system if put in a locked state.
I guess he doesn't know that timepieces have been using sapphire crystals for decades.
So? He was incorrect and someone corrected him. Maybe he'll take the opportunity to learn something.
A convex button within a concave space may be the way to go when it comes to accidental clicking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy
KDarling, you should definitely send Apple an email with your concerns, which took you a few seconds of think of. No doubt over the years and months of developing implementing, and testing this technology, that they certainly did not think of or test any of these fundamental concepts on a device that will sell in the hundreds of millions. Almost every single major decision that Apple has ever taken was defined as a "terrible idea" by armchair CEOs everywhere- after which these decisions and concepts became massive successes with none of the issue that people concerned-trolled about. One would think you would have a bit more humility than having absolute confidence that all these things are "terrible ideas", without having a second of hands-on knowledge about any of them, and knowing that Apple has spent thousands of hours of testing.
you are assuming that Apple is actually doing all this, disregarding that this is just a rumor from someone who hasn‘t seen the device! Most arguments are about whether the rumor as presented is logical.
It doesn‘t seem logical. It would not be easy to shape a convex sapphire slice, and a convex (or concave) shape hinders scan reproducibility because it deforms the finger unevenly. I also doubt that the actual sensor could take a convex or concave shape
Not quite sure what you mean, but a recessed convex button whose peak is flush with the flat surface would most certainly prevent accidental clicking but would also welcome in lots of dirt and debris.
It is a nice feature to add but not really a wow! feature. Do't get me wrong in that I think it will be useful and a nice differentiator from other phones but I just can't see many people citing that as a reason to buy an iPhone 5S. I see more benefit from increasing the storage from 16GB to 32GB on the base model and improving the camera for most people than adding a fingerprint scanner.
I wouldn't mind an additional option of voice authentication with Siri. Maybe a short phrase. But right now I don't think Siri has that ability to do voice authentication but it could happen down the road as they improve the speech engine. Voice-recognition biometrics is much more reliable and secure and is already being used in the military, banking, and other sectors so no reason why it couldn't be added to Siri in the future.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bondm16
Will the phone store your own fingerprint so it knows its you when you unlock the phone? If so, do we have assurances that no one will collect said fingerprints in a database?
It doesn't read a fingerprint, so it doesn't store a fingerprint.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Amhran
KDarling, noted anti-Apple troll, at it again.....
Originally Posted by Slurpy
KDarling, you should definitely send Apple an email with your concerns...
Apparently you and a few other rude people, cannot tell the difference between debating an ANALYST RUMOR and an actual Apple design.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Not a problem at all. For example:
http://www.ultra-thin.com/sapphire.htm
Thank you very much for the link. Let me check if 25 microns would be thin enough. The capacitive/RF fingerprint sensor patents I've read mention one or two microns.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macky the Macky
Hello!!?? They ain't gonna be scanning no fingers, especially a whole finger!! The devices reads the biometrics in a wholly different way than looking at the ridges ON the finger's surface.
Assuming they're using an RF type of sensor, all it's doing is reading the tiniest bit deeper than, and not relying on air gaps like, DC capacitive scanners.
The problem is, a convex surface would deform the finger ridges and dermis underneath, in different ways each time. That's why scanners are flat. So a flat button sensor would make a lot more sense all around.
The original rumor article said:
Quote:
"By using a convex home button instead of the familiar concave design, Apple will be able to make room for the much rumored fingerprint sensor without losing precious internal space, according to well-informed KGI analyst Ming-Chi Kuo."
The button is already thick enough inside for a sensor (especially with a remote chip, as Authentec has patented). Going slightly convex is unnecessary, and ... as I pointed out before... would cause unnecessary extra problems with reading prints, creating a "sapphire layer" over it, and for users who opt out of the recognition.
Convex just doesn't make technical or practical sense for any currently known fingerprint sensor technology.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KDarling
Also, the home button isn't big enough for a whole-finger scanner, so you'd need to swipe, and a raised button sounds like it would easily get clicked.
That was the thought that I had. Unless it isn't going to require a whole finger scan but just the main whorl, but how effective is that
I really do wonder if folks are taking this acquisitions implications way too far, at least at this point. Perhaps, for the moment, it has nothing to do with security is is for a more simplistic use like improving general screen response including palm rest type systems