Well Palm OS 5 is now shipping, a clear month before MacWorld. It supposely adds some heft to the traditionally bare bones Palm experience. Since I have no experience with the Newton, I'd be interested in knowing how OS5 compares with the Newton and whether it's a viable option for the "upcoming Apple PDA."
I wonder whether someone will hack Palm OS 5 to run on the Newton's ARM processor. Or maybe vice versa, hack the Newton OS to run on the ARM-equipped Palm, Handspring and Sony hardware destined to ship this fall.
The pure PDA rumor is pretty much bunk. The problem is the price point. A PDA with 802.11 wireless networking costs about $700. That's just too close to a laptop. And this is the problem that all the PDA vendors are seeing.
If you look the PDA vendors they're all moving to a cellphone/PDA combo (Handspring, RIM, Palm, etc). I was just in a meeting with the Microsoft mobility group and they say the same thing. The reason for convergence is because the cost of the device is buried within the service contract. Moreover, the cellphone ownership exceeds PC ownership while PDA ownership is hardly anything. An internal Palm study showed that people carry their PDAs for about one year after that they just got left at home or the office. What the mobility people have discovered is that the killer app of a mobile device is voice communication.
So where does that leave us. Ok, look at Jaguar. What's new?
What's in the Hiptop. Well, AOL IM, e-mail app, contact manager, and ability to send photos (possible iphoto integration?). It sure looks like Apple is updating the OS to support this device (or something like it)
The Hiptop costs only $200 plus you get unlimited wireless data service for $25 a month. The company, Danger, sells a back end service to the cellular carriers where most of processing for the device is done server side, not client side. That makes it possible to reduce the data sent back and forth between the device, plus it doesn't require a very powerful processor (that's how they keep the price low).
If Apple announces a new lifestyle device I'm going to guess it's a phone and they're either going to buy Danger outright or they'll announce a major strategic partnership.
Thanks for this great summary analysis of the PDA and mobile phone markets, pjn23.
[quote]Originally posted by pjn23:
<strong>An internal Palm study showed that people carry their PDAs for about one year after that they just got left at home or the office</strong><hr></blockquote>
How true their findings were. My Palm accompanied me for a year, and then got left in the dust. Now, two or three years after abandoning my Palm, which I used only for contacts and scheduling, I am thinking about replacing it with a smaller cell phone that I will again bring along.
[quote]<strong>If Apple announces a new lifestyle device I'm going to guess it's a phone</strong><hr></blockquote>
Only problem with the phone idea is that there are a bazillion competing mobile phone networks and standards, at least in the US. It's one thing for Handspring to develop multiple versions of the Treo to deal with various networks. Handspring has nothing else to do. Apple, on the other hand, had better things to do than deal with the multitude of competing mobile phone standards.
[quote]The pure PDA rumor is pretty much bunk. The problem is the price point. A PDA with 802.11 wireless networking costs about $700. That's just too close to a laptop. And this is the problem that all the PDA vendors are seeing. <hr></blockquote>
Yes, but remember that the Newtons sold for MORE than that originally and despite early problems, they were becoming fairly successful in the end. Also remember what the eMate was selling for when it was released. Yes, it was laptop like, but it still had some of the finer points of the Newton and there was an order for 3,000,000 of them placed by Texas alone! Too bad Newton, Inc. was spun back into Apple or we would have seen some very interesting handheld computers on the market now.
Also, while the price of the PDA might hit between $500 - $700 (especially with what they are asking for with the iPod), you have to realize that with the right features, there is a market for this type of device! Realistically, people can't bring their laptops everywhere, but a device like this, you could. For people that need to be on the go all of the time, while still connected, this device would be terrific.
Argue with me all you like, but the Palms are severely lacking right now compared with Pocket PCs, and even devices like the iPaq could still be outshined in many ways by a new Apple device.
<strong>Wow, a Palm OS 5 device coming this fall will be hitting the <a href="http://news.com.com/2100-1040-935158.html"; target="_blank">$100.00 price point.</a></strong><hr></blockquote>
"Palm hopes to improve its fortunes by introducing three new handhelds this fall, including one designed to sell for $100"
Reread the title ....... did it mention OS 5 anywhere in the sentence ?
<strong>Reread the title ....... did it mention OS 5 anywhere in the sentence ?</strong><hr></blockquote>
The article is quite clear: "Palm has also said that one [out of three] of its new products for the fall will be a handheld running Palm OS 5 that is capable of making phone calls." This means that the other two, including the $100 model, will still run Palm OS 4.x.
I'm waiting for the day when we'll get a $100 PDA with color screen and unlimited data and voice calls. I fear I'll have to dream on...
Well Palm's done some stupid things before, but I refuse to believe that right when they're promoting OS 5 as the new standard, they'd release two BRAND NEW products for the Christmas season that don't run it.
I'm not saying the $100.00 Palm will be colour or use any of OS 5's major enhancements. But just as Apple standardizes on one motherboard for various models to cut costs, I would imagine Palm would do the same.
Funny, I read that as an emphasis on the voice capability. In other words, three new devices running OS 5 comma one of which "is capable of making phone calls."
Screed
Mmm-okay, I reread a fourth time. He did say "a handheld running Palm OS 5 that is capable of making phone calls."
I still don't think that implies the other two will run 4.x. But then again this is Palm.
For the record, I want:
-Color
-integrated wireless (but not necessarily voice)
-Mac compatibility (obviously)
-a processor faster than the Dragonball
The Treo 90 comes the closest short of the processor.
<strong>Funny, I read that as an emphasis on the voice capability. In other words, three new devices running OS 5 comma one of which "is capable of making phone calls."</strong><hr></blockquote>
I guess the journalists at C|Net should learn to use proper punctuation. (Or get better info from Palm. )
[quote]<strong>The Treo 90 comes the closest short of the processor.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Screed: Note that the Treo 90 does not have any wireless functionality. However, it is a nice handheld and would be my choice if I was buying one now. (My Palm IIIxe will continue to serve until there are new models that have useful added funtionality.)
<strong>Screed: Note that the Treo 90 does not have any wireless functionality. However, it is a nice handheld and would be my choice if I was buying one now.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Gah, you're right! You reminded me what's worse about it: the SD slot is not compatible with SDIO therefore the new Bluetooth cards won't work!
Screed ...hmm, must find more batteries for my IIIx
<strong>Gah, you're right! You reminded me what's worse about it: the SD slot is not compatible with SDIO therefore the new Bluetooth cards won't work!</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'd forgotten about that serious shortcoming as well. An other one is that you can't upgrade the OS on any Handsprings because the ROM isn't flashable. Hopefully, many PDAs will come with Bluetooth built-in at no (or very little) added cost. In any case, I still think the Treo 90 looks very good.
Handspring did say that they COULD release a software update that would make the Treo 90 compatible with SDIO. The question is whether or not they will and if so, when?
You can read my review of the Treo 90 at Amazon.com:
Granted. But the real issue is given that Bluetooth technology can now fit on an SD card, why isn't the tech being integrated into the devices? Why treat it as an afterthought, when there are some killer apps just waiting for it? (IM chat, games, web/email, games -- repeated for emphasis)
Are there FCC issues of integrated vs. add-ons?
Then, of course, something could be flawed or onerous with the tech. (Why did D-link (or Apple) kill the USB adapter?)
Separately, Apple is seeking production of personal digital assistants (PDAs) and some computer peripherals, such as its wireless communications access points, namely airports, in Taiwan.
From AsiaBizTech
entitled: Taiwan Enjoys Rapidly Growing Orders from Apple Computer
I bouioght a Treo 90 last night and its going back to best buy today! The thing is about the nicest Palm styled PDA Ive ever seen, but there are HUGE incompatibility issues with the mac, and not just os X. So im now hoping for an Apple solution at MWNY. Id be willing to spend as much as 500, provided it was not the average pda functionality. Although i think that Newton-esque handwrititng recognition alone would be worth that price for the rest of it being basic palm functionality.
Comments
(No inside info here, just wishful thinking...)
Escher
[ 06-10-2002: Message edited by: Escher ]</p>
If you look the PDA vendors they're all moving to a cellphone/PDA combo (Handspring, RIM, Palm, etc). I was just in a meeting with the Microsoft mobility group and they say the same thing. The reason for convergence is because the cost of the device is buried within the service contract. Moreover, the cellphone ownership exceeds PC ownership while PDA ownership is hardly anything. An internal Palm study showed that people carry their PDAs for about one year after that they just got left at home or the office. What the mobility people have discovered is that the killer app of a mobile device is voice communication.
So where does that leave us. Ok, look at Jaguar. What's new?
- Integrated AOL Instant Messenger
- Contact Manager
- Improved Mail Client (also Web mail UI)
Now, go look at the feature set for the <a href="http://www.danger.com/hiptop_demo/load_movies.html"; target="_blank">Danger Hiptop</a>What's in the Hiptop. Well, AOL IM, e-mail app, contact manager, and ability to send photos (possible iphoto integration?). It sure looks like Apple is updating the OS to support this device (or something like it)
The Hiptop costs only $200 plus you get unlimited wireless data service for $25 a month. The company, Danger, sells a back end service to the cellular carriers where most of processing for the device is done server side, not client side. That makes it possible to reduce the data sent back and forth between the device, plus it doesn't require a very powerful processor (that's how they keep the price low).
If Apple announces a new lifestyle device I'm going to guess it's a phone and they're either going to buy Danger outright or they'll announce a major strategic partnership.
That's my 2 cents.
[ 06-11-2002: Message edited by: pjn23 ]</p>
[quote]Originally posted by pjn23:
<strong>An internal Palm study showed that people carry their PDAs for about one year after that they just got left at home or the office</strong><hr></blockquote>
How true their findings were. My Palm accompanied me for a year, and then got left in the dust. Now, two or three years after abandoning my Palm, which I used only for contacts and scheduling, I am thinking about replacing it with a smaller cell phone that I will again bring along.
[quote]<strong>If Apple announces a new lifestyle device I'm going to guess it's a phone</strong><hr></blockquote>
Only problem with the phone idea is that there are a bazillion competing mobile phone networks and standards, at least in the US. It's one thing for Handspring to develop multiple versions of the Treo to deal with various networks. Handspring has nothing else to do. Apple, on the other hand, had better things to do than deal with the multitude of competing mobile phone standards.
Escher
[ 06-11-2002: Message edited by: Escher ]</p>
Yes, but remember that the Newtons sold for MORE than that originally and despite early problems, they were becoming fairly successful in the end. Also remember what the eMate was selling for when it was released. Yes, it was laptop like, but it still had some of the finer points of the Newton and there was an order for 3,000,000 of them placed by Texas alone! Too bad Newton, Inc. was spun back into Apple or we would have seen some very interesting handheld computers on the market now.
Also, while the price of the PDA might hit between $500 - $700 (especially with what they are asking for with the iPod), you have to realize that with the right features, there is a market for this type of device! Realistically, people can't bring their laptops everywhere, but a device like this, you could. For people that need to be on the go all of the time, while still connected, this device would be terrific.
Argue with me all you like, but the Palms are severely lacking right now compared with Pocket PCs, and even devices like the iPaq could still be outshined in many ways by a new Apple device.
I know its hard to contemplate, but maybe Apple should steer clear of this train wreck after all.
<strong>Wow, a Palm OS 5 device coming this fall will be hitting the <a href="http://news.com.com/2100-1040-935158.html"; target="_blank">$100.00 price point.</a></strong><hr></blockquote>
"Palm hopes to improve its fortunes by introducing three new handhelds this fall, including one designed to sell for $100"
Reread the title ....... did it mention OS 5 anywhere in the sentence ?
<strong>Reread the title ....... did it mention OS 5 anywhere in the sentence ?</strong><hr></blockquote>
The article is quite clear: "Palm has also said that one [out of three] of its new products for the fall will be a handheld running Palm OS 5 that is capable of making phone calls." This means that the other two, including the $100 model, will still run Palm OS 4.x.
I'm waiting for the day when we'll get a $100 PDA with color screen and unlimited data and voice calls. I fear I'll have to dream on...
Escher
I'm not saying the $100.00 Palm will be colour or use any of OS 5's major enhancements. But just as Apple standardizes on one motherboard for various models to cut costs, I would imagine Palm would do the same.
Screed
Mmm-okay, I reread a fourth time. He did say "a handheld running Palm OS 5 that is capable of making phone calls."
I still don't think that implies the other two will run 4.x. But then again this is Palm.
For the record, I want:
-Color
-integrated wireless (but not necessarily voice)
-Mac compatibility (obviously)
-a processor faster than the Dragonball
The Treo 90 comes the closest short of the processor.
[ 06-20-2002: Message edited by: sCreeD ]</p>
<strong>Funny, I read that as an emphasis on the voice capability. In other words, three new devices running OS 5 comma one of which "is capable of making phone calls."</strong><hr></blockquote>
I guess the journalists at C|Net should learn to use proper punctuation. (Or get better info from Palm.
[quote]<strong>The Treo 90 comes the closest short of the processor.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Screed: Note that the Treo 90 does not have any wireless functionality. However, it is a nice handheld and would be my choice if I was buying one now. (My Palm IIIxe will continue to serve until there are new models that have useful added funtionality.)
Escher
<strong>Screed: Note that the Treo 90 does not have any wireless functionality. However, it is a nice handheld and would be my choice if I was buying one now.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Gah, you're right! You reminded me what's worse about it: the SD slot is not compatible with SDIO therefore the new Bluetooth cards won't work!
Screed ...hmm, must find more batteries for my IIIx
<strong>Gah, you're right! You reminded me what's worse about it: the SD slot is not compatible with SDIO therefore the new Bluetooth cards won't work!</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'd forgotten about that serious shortcoming as well. An other one is that you can't upgrade the OS on any Handsprings because the ROM isn't flashable. Hopefully, many PDAs will come with Bluetooth built-in at no (or very little) added cost. In any case, I still think the Treo 90 looks very good.
Escher
You can read my review of the Treo 90 at Amazon.com:
<a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/cm/member-reviews/-/A2ZEA6SNZ2DIF8/1/ref=cm_rev_auth/102-1844515-5516146"; target="_blank">http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/cm/member-reviews/-/A2ZEA6SNZ2DIF8/1/ref=cm_rev_auth/102-1844515-5516146</a>;
Mike
Are there FCC issues of integrated vs. add-ons?
Then, of course, something could be flawed or onerous with the tech. (Why did D-link (or Apple) kill the USB adapter?)
Screed ...wants to be Palm CEO for a fortnight!
[ 06-21-2002: Message edited by: sCreeD ]</p>
Separately, Apple is seeking production of personal digital assistants (PDAs) and some computer peripherals, such as its wireless communications access points, namely airports, in Taiwan.
From AsiaBizTech
entitled: Taiwan Enjoys Rapidly Growing Orders from Apple Computer
<a href="http://www.nikkeibp.asiabiztech.com/wcs/leaf?CID=onair/asabt/moren/192188"; target="_blank">http://www.nikkeibp.asiabiztech.com/wcs/leaf?CID=onair/asabt/moren/192188</a>;
Could this be true?
heres to hoping for an apple pda!
Red light - Nope, never?
Yellow light - Maybe, MWSF or beyond?
Green light - Yes, July surprise?
Anyone, anyone? Bueller? Bueller?
Screed
[ 07-02-2002: Message edited by: sCreeD ]</p>