No, that just typical behavior for an A-GPS device (such as phones) when you have no data connection and weak GPS signal. In such a situation the error margin for calculating the location grows much bigger and as such it will appear as if you might be in multiple places due to the inaccuracy. I've seen such effects happen on Android phones with Google Maps as well and on iOS 6 and earlier in the same circumstance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestro64
Actually the phone is using 1 or 3 method to figure out where the phone is, first is simple cell tower locations, if are connected to the tower and that has a known location the phone can approximate your locations, next it will use a WiFi signal since those may have a location based on a database that apple and other companies have collected, Lastly is using the GPS which is going to triangulate your exact location with in a few feet. Apple most likely has an algorithm which used all three of these methods depending on what is going on at any particular time.
To prove this to yourself, turn off wifi, then turn off your phone for a period of time, then go in a structure like a house (shielded form a GPS signal) turn the phone back on, and bring up maps, and your location will be based on the cell tower location. Then turn on Wifi and your location will get a little better, then walk outside and then your location will become even better.
I understand what you're both saying but I've never seen it move like this before. Its not that I'm "bouncing" from place to place, it's the direction the phone thinks I'm facing is incorrect. It definitely appears this is a compass issue and not a "positional" issue. I probably didn't explain it the best but even as I travel the pointer shows me to be in the correct position on the map, but the map is twitching back and forth as if it can't tell the direction I am facing. In other words it looks as if the phone thinks I'm "side stepping" as I travel. Hard to explain but having used GPS since 2000 I've never seen something appear quite like that.
I'm not too worried, it doesn't happen often, I figure it'll be fixed in a later release. I'm more concerned about an OH address appearing in MN in the maps app I reported months ago...
I understand what you're both saying but I've never seen it move like this before. Its not that I'm "bouncing" from place to place, it's the direction the phone thinks I'm facing is incorrect. It definitely appears this is a compass issue and not a "positional" issue.
No, I don't think you do. Both the bouncing and wrong heading are a side effect of the increased margin of error for both location and heading calculation in the situation you've described. I've seen it happen in Google Maps on Android and on iOS 6 and earlier with apps like Waze. You don't seem to understand how much error is introduced when using an A-GPS in such situations. A-GPS is only reasonably accurate with good satellite fixes and a data connection to triangulate. I was seeing exactly what you describe just a few days ago on my iPhone 5 in an area with poor data connection and it was very overcast that day which means that it was having a hard time getting good satellite fixes.
I understand what you're both saying but I've never seen it move like this before. Its not that I'm "bouncing" from place to place, it's the direction the phone thinks I'm facing is incorrect. It definitely appears this is a compass issue and not a "positional" issue.
No, I don't think you do. Both the bouncing and wrong heading are a side effect of the increased margin of error for both location and heading calculation in the situation you've described. I've seen it happen in Google Maps on Android and on iOS 6 and earlier with apps like Waze. You don't seem to understand how much error is introduced when using an A-GPS in such situations. A-GPS is only reasonably accurate with good satellite fixes and a data connection to triangulate. I was seeing exactly what you describe just a few days ago on my iPhone 5 in an area with poor data connection and it was very overcast that day which means that it was having a hard time getting good satellite fixes.
Actually you may be misunderstanding assisted GPS, which simply refers to the use of other positional data (wifi, cell towers etc.) to speed up the initial GPS location fix. Once that position is roughly acquired then those additional data sources are disregarded, primarily because they are very inaccurate by comparison to the actual GPS data.
In determining direction, when stationary or at low speed, I'm not sure how the navigational apps weight the derivative GPS data versus the compass data, or even whether they all use the same weighting.
No, I don't think you do. Both the bouncing and wrong heading are a side effect of the increased margin of error for both location and heading calculation in the situation you've described. I've seen it happen in Google Maps on Android and on iOS 6 and earlier with apps like Waze. You don't seem to understand how much error is introduced when using an A-GPS in such situations. A-GPS is only reasonably accurate with good satellite fixes and a data connection to triangulate. I was seeing exactly what you describe just a few days ago on my iPhone 5 in an area with poor data connection and it was very overcast that day which means that it was having a hard time getting good satellite fixes.
I spend a good amount of time in areas with little or no cellular connection and this is the first time I've ever seen these specific events happen under these specific conditions. I've seen them happen with a cold startup on a GPS but never after acquiring a lock and then losing it temporarily. Apparently I haven't been paying attention before upgrading to iOS7.
No, I don't think you do. Both the bouncing and wrong heading are a side effect of the increased margin of error for both location and heading calculation in the situation you've described. I've seen it happen in Google Maps on Android and on iOS 6 and earlier with apps like Waze. You don't seem to understand how much error is introduced when using an A-GPS in such situations. A-GPS is only reasonably accurate with good satellite fixes and a data connection to triangulate. I was seeing exactly what you describe just a few days ago on my iPhone 5 in an area with poor data connection and it was very overcast that day which means that it was having a hard time getting good satellite fixes.
I spend a good amount of time in areas with little or no cellular connection and this is the first time I've ever seen these specific events happen under these specific conditions. I've seen them happen with a cold startup on a GPS but never after acquiring a lock and then losing it temporarily. Apparently I haven't been paying attention before upgrading to iOS7.
Cellular reception has no effect except on cold start times. Also cloud cover (or most other tropospheric conditions) has no significant effect on GPS signal strength.
I understand what you're both saying but I've never seen it move like this before. Its not that I'm "bouncing" from place to place, it's the direction the phone thinks I'm facing is incorrect. It definitely appears this is a compass issue and not a "positional" issue. I probably didn't explain it the best but even as I travel the pointer shows me to be in the correct position on the map, but the map is twitching back and forth as if it can't tell the direction I am facing. In other words it looks as if the phone thinks I'm "side stepping" as I travel. Hard to explain but having used GPS since 2000 I've never seen something appear quite like that.
I'm not too worried, it doesn't happen often, I figure it'll be fixed in a later release. I'm more concerned about an OH address appearing in MN in the maps app I reported months ago...
To your point, I too have been using GPS systems for a long time, my firsts dates back to the 90's. What you describe I have seen on a stand alone GPS units as well as on an Andriod phone of various models, it does not happen all the time but for some reason the system gets bad or corrupt data and tries to triangulate on that data. Depending on the system they respond to this in different ways. I have seen the location jump from one point to another or spin around unclear what direction I am heading. The newer systems seem to do better at knowing direction of travel, but you still need to be moving to know exact what direction you are heading even with a compass feature. I believe the newer systems just do a better job of filtering unlikely data our and estimating where you are since it does not requirement it to be exactly right it just good enough. I do not think this is a specific Apple like of issue but if the compass has more error to it then in the past their algorithm may not be good enough and shows more errors.
Getting the AppleCare Protection Plan just to fix this problem is maybe a bit over the top, since Apple already offers a 1 year limited warranty by default.
Indeed, standard warranty is enough. I got a new phone (5) last month only because I told them the power button didn't always work. They didn't even try it out; replaced with a brand new (64GB) one, no questions asked. Well, still in warranty.
While waiting for the Genius I had 3 people with a broken 5 at my table; all got a new phone. Two power button issues, one with a broken screen. Don't know if the broken screen was a) the only problem and b) if she had AppleCare, still, all replaced.
Indeed, standard warranty is enough. I got a new phone (5) last month only because I told them the power button didn't always work. They didn't even try it out; replaced with a brand new (64GB) one, no questions asked. Well, still in warranty.
While waiting for the Genius I had 3 people with a broken 5 at my table; all got a new phone. Two power button issues, one with a broken screen. Don't know if the broken screen was a) the only problem and b) if she had AppleCare, still, all replaced.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikmanshah
Getting the AppleCare Protection Plan just to fix this problem is maybe a bit over the top, since Apple already offers a 1 year limited warranty by default.
Probably, but why take the chance?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Come on, man; you know better.
Not really. There’s always something to whine about.
I know, and yes, I'm whining a bit, partially because my 5s is still "preparing to ship" . However, this does seem like a more troubled rollout than usual.
I know, and yes, I'm whining a bit, partially because my 5s is still "preparing to ship" . However, this does seem like a more troubled rollout than usual.
We really need to compile a chart of every product release and associated info, you know? See how everything compares…
To your point, I too have been using GPS systems for a long time, my firsts dates back to the 90's. What you describe I have seen on a stand alone GPS units as well as on an Andriod phone of various models, it does not happen all the time but for some reason the system gets bad or corrupt data and tries to triangulate on that data. Depending on the system they respond to this in different ways. I have seen the location jump from one point to another or spin around unclear what direction I am heading. The newer systems seem to do better at knowing direction of travel, but you still need to be moving to know exact what direction you are heading even with a compass feature. I believe the newer systems just do a better job of filtering unlikely data our and estimating where you are since it does not requirement it to be exactly right it just good enough. I do not think this is a specific Apple like of issue but if the compass has more error to it then in the past their algorithm may not be good enough and shows more errors.
I think you may be correct on this. I think there might have been some changes made to the the algorithms in the compass and maps apps in iOS 7 of which Apple needs to address. Not criticizing them, they did a lot over the last year and bugs are to be expected, but I think some things can be improved slightly.
What's a little odd is that I also use Navigon when I get in to really remote locations and Maps is unable to grab data and I've yet to experience the same issues.
We really need to compile a chart of every product release and associated info, you know? See how everything compares…
But who to report on Samsung, without kdarling around?
Sorry to hear about your poor delivery time Rich. Apple is releasing a gazillion countries next Friday, so it would be fair for you to already have received yours by then. Hang in there...
That would work if they're all off by the same margin, if not it needs to be user adjusted.
That's not true. I understand you're trying to apply common sense. But consider that, if you have never really used and calibrated accelerometers before, it might be best not to inject an unqualified opinion. After all, you don't want to mislead people, do you?
Actually you may be misunderstanding assisted GPS, which simply refers to the use of other positional data (wifi, cell towers etc.) to speed up the initial GPS location fix. Once that position is roughly acquired then those additional data sources are disregarded, primarily because they are very inaccurate by comparison to the actual GPS data.
Which means that in absence of those other positional data and a weak GPS signal that you get wider margins of error in location and heading calculations. I've seen this happen on a variety of different phones. It's why in the apps that show the area where they think you are gets much, much larger when you have no data connection along with obviously a weak GPS signal. Both things that person brought up can be seen on a wide variety of GPS devices if they are having trouble getting very accurate positional and heading data. If this were simply a iPhone 5s and iOS 7 issue then I would not have been able to see it on Android phones I've owned and on my iPhone 5 running iOS 6. And even with accurate positioning I've seen apps like Waze have my vehicle pointing in the wrong direction then the way I'm going on more than a few occasions.
My master thesis was about self calibrating accelerometers and magnetometers in attitude determination applications. It focused in the potential use of "worse" sensors for some non-critical processes, with good enough direction accuracy.
The figures the expert said are good, from my experience, bad sensors give alignment errors of about 5-10 degrees. The self calibration method I developed brought those down to 1-2 degrees! It's really easy to implement this feature via firmware update, and correct this bug.
What rubs me the wrong way is apple going for cheap (and worse) silicon on a premium priced device...
I have the 5c and it has the same issues. I even compared it to my friend's 5s. Is it really the hardware or is it just the calibration? Or does the 5c have the same accelerometer as the 5s? Either way, MotionX GPS Drive seems to read correctly. So does Theodolite. So I'm not too sure if its hardware.
To check a level. Place it on a flat surface, look at the vial, note the location of the bubble. Turn the level 180 degrees, and look at the vial. If the bubble is in the same place, the level is level.
I hope they fix this soon. Just three days ago I nicked a wingtip on the roof a uranium refinement facility while flying my F22 on a recon mission over North Korea. I was using my 5s as a HUD coz the Raptor's dash has too many blinky lights.
I hope they fix this soon. Just three days ago I nicked a wingtip on the roof a uranium refinement facility while flying my F22 on a recon mission over North Korea. I was using my 5s as a HUD coz the Raptor's dash has too many blinky lights.
I saw you do that, imperialist pig! Supreme Leader Kim will be sending you a bill!
Comments
No, that just typical behavior for an A-GPS device (such as phones) when you have no data connection and weak GPS signal. In such a situation the error margin for calculating the location grows much bigger and as such it will appear as if you might be in multiple places due to the inaccuracy. I've seen such effects happen on Android phones with Google Maps as well and on iOS 6 and earlier in the same circumstance.
Actually the phone is using 1 or 3 method to figure out where the phone is, first is simple cell tower locations, if are connected to the tower and that has a known location the phone can approximate your locations, next it will use a WiFi signal since those may have a location based on a database that apple and other companies have collected, Lastly is using the GPS which is going to triangulate your exact location with in a few feet. Apple most likely has an algorithm which used all three of these methods depending on what is going on at any particular time.
To prove this to yourself, turn off wifi, then turn off your phone for a period of time, then go in a structure like a house (shielded form a GPS signal) turn the phone back on, and bring up maps, and your location will be based on the cell tower location. Then turn on Wifi and your location will get a little better, then walk outside and then your location will become even better.
I understand what you're both saying but I've never seen it move like this before. Its not that I'm "bouncing" from place to place, it's the direction the phone thinks I'm facing is incorrect. It definitely appears this is a compass issue and not a "positional" issue. I probably didn't explain it the best but even as I travel the pointer shows me to be in the correct position on the map, but the map is twitching back and forth as if it can't tell the direction I am facing. In other words it looks as if the phone thinks I'm "side stepping" as I travel. Hard to explain but having used GPS since 2000 I've never seen something appear quite like that.
I'm not too worried, it doesn't happen often, I figure it'll be fixed in a later release. I'm more concerned about an OH address appearing in MN in the maps app I reported months ago...
Come on, man; you know better.
Not really. There’s always something to whine about.
I understand what you're both saying but I've never seen it move like this before. Its not that I'm "bouncing" from place to place, it's the direction the phone thinks I'm facing is incorrect. It definitely appears this is a compass issue and not a "positional" issue.
No, I don't think you do. Both the bouncing and wrong heading are a side effect of the increased margin of error for both location and heading calculation in the situation you've described. I've seen it happen in Google Maps on Android and on iOS 6 and earlier with apps like Waze. You don't seem to understand how much error is introduced when using an A-GPS in such situations. A-GPS is only reasonably accurate with good satellite fixes and a data connection to triangulate. I was seeing exactly what you describe just a few days ago on my iPhone 5 in an area with poor data connection and it was very overcast that day which means that it was having a hard time getting good satellite fixes.
I understand what you're both saying but I've never seen it move like this before. Its not that I'm "bouncing" from place to place, it's the direction the phone thinks I'm facing is incorrect. It definitely appears this is a compass issue and not a "positional" issue.
No, I don't think you do. Both the bouncing and wrong heading are a side effect of the increased margin of error for both location and heading calculation in the situation you've described. I've seen it happen in Google Maps on Android and on iOS 6 and earlier with apps like Waze. You don't seem to understand how much error is introduced when using an A-GPS in such situations. A-GPS is only reasonably accurate with good satellite fixes and a data connection to triangulate. I was seeing exactly what you describe just a few days ago on my iPhone 5 in an area with poor data connection and it was very overcast that day which means that it was having a hard time getting good satellite fixes.
Actually you may be misunderstanding assisted GPS, which simply refers to the use of other positional data (wifi, cell towers etc.) to speed up the initial GPS location fix. Once that position is roughly acquired then those additional data sources are disregarded, primarily because they are very inaccurate by comparison to the actual GPS data.
In determining direction, when stationary or at low speed, I'm not sure how the navigational apps weight the derivative GPS data versus the compass data, or even whether they all use the same weighting.
No, I don't think you do. Both the bouncing and wrong heading are a side effect of the increased margin of error for both location and heading calculation in the situation you've described. I've seen it happen in Google Maps on Android and on iOS 6 and earlier with apps like Waze. You don't seem to understand how much error is introduced when using an A-GPS in such situations. A-GPS is only reasonably accurate with good satellite fixes and a data connection to triangulate. I was seeing exactly what you describe just a few days ago on my iPhone 5 in an area with poor data connection and it was very overcast that day which means that it was having a hard time getting good satellite fixes.
I spend a good amount of time in areas with little or no cellular connection and this is the first time I've ever seen these specific events happen under these specific conditions. I've seen them happen with a cold startup on a GPS but never after acquiring a lock and then losing it temporarily. Apparently I haven't been paying attention before upgrading to iOS7.
No, I don't think you do. Both the bouncing and wrong heading are a side effect of the increased margin of error for both location and heading calculation in the situation you've described. I've seen it happen in Google Maps on Android and on iOS 6 and earlier with apps like Waze. You don't seem to understand how much error is introduced when using an A-GPS in such situations. A-GPS is only reasonably accurate with good satellite fixes and a data connection to triangulate. I was seeing exactly what you describe just a few days ago on my iPhone 5 in an area with poor data connection and it was very overcast that day which means that it was having a hard time getting good satellite fixes.
I spend a good amount of time in areas with little or no cellular connection and this is the first time I've ever seen these specific events happen under these specific conditions. I've seen them happen with a cold startup on a GPS but never after acquiring a lock and then losing it temporarily. Apparently I haven't been paying attention before upgrading to iOS7.
Cellular reception has no effect except on cold start times. Also cloud cover (or most other tropospheric conditions) has no significant effect on GPS signal strength.
I understand what you're both saying but I've never seen it move like this before. Its not that I'm "bouncing" from place to place, it's the direction the phone thinks I'm facing is incorrect. It definitely appears this is a compass issue and not a "positional" issue. I probably didn't explain it the best but even as I travel the pointer shows me to be in the correct position on the map, but the map is twitching back and forth as if it can't tell the direction I am facing. In other words it looks as if the phone thinks I'm "side stepping" as I travel. Hard to explain but having used GPS since 2000 I've never seen something appear quite like that.
I'm not too worried, it doesn't happen often, I figure it'll be fixed in a later release. I'm more concerned about an OH address appearing in MN in the maps app I reported months ago...
To your point, I too have been using GPS systems for a long time, my firsts dates back to the 90's. What you describe I have seen on a stand alone GPS units as well as on an Andriod phone of various models, it does not happen all the time but for some reason the system gets bad or corrupt data and tries to triangulate on that data. Depending on the system they respond to this in different ways. I have seen the location jump from one point to another or spin around unclear what direction I am heading. The newer systems seem to do better at knowing direction of travel, but you still need to be moving to know exact what direction you are heading even with a compass feature. I believe the newer systems just do a better job of filtering unlikely data our and estimating where you are since it does not requirement it to be exactly right it just good enough. I do not think this is a specific Apple like of issue but if the compass has more error to it then in the past their algorithm may not be good enough and shows more errors.
Indeed, standard warranty is enough. I got a new phone (5) last month only because I told them the power button didn't always work. They didn't even try it out; replaced with a brand new (64GB) one, no questions asked. Well, still in warranty.
While waiting for the Genius I had 3 people with a broken 5 at my table; all got a new phone. Two power button issues, one with a broken screen. Don't know if the broken screen was a) the only problem and b) if she had AppleCare, still, all replaced.
Indeed, standard warranty is enough. I got a new phone (5) last month only because I told them the power button didn't always work. They didn't even try it out; replaced with a brand new (64GB) one, no questions asked. Well, still in warranty.
While waiting for the Genius I had 3 people with a broken 5 at my table; all got a new phone. Two power button issues, one with a broken screen. Don't know if the broken screen was a) the only problem and b) if she had AppleCare, still, all replaced.
Getting the AppleCare Protection Plan just to fix this problem is maybe a bit over the top, since Apple already offers a 1 year limited warranty by default.
Probably, but why take the chance?
Come on, man; you know better.
Not really. There’s always something to whine about.
I know, and yes, I'm whining a bit, partially because my 5s is still "preparing to ship"
. However, this does seem like a more troubled rollout than usual.
I know, and yes, I'm whining a bit, partially because my 5s is still "preparing to ship"
. However, this does seem like a more troubled rollout than usual.
We really need to compile a chart of every product release and associated info, you know? See how everything compares…
To your point, I too have been using GPS systems for a long time, my firsts dates back to the 90's. What you describe I have seen on a stand alone GPS units as well as on an Andriod phone of various models, it does not happen all the time but for some reason the system gets bad or corrupt data and tries to triangulate on that data. Depending on the system they respond to this in different ways. I have seen the location jump from one point to another or spin around unclear what direction I am heading. The newer systems seem to do better at knowing direction of travel, but you still need to be moving to know exact what direction you are heading even with a compass feature. I believe the newer systems just do a better job of filtering unlikely data our and estimating where you are since it does not requirement it to be exactly right it just good enough. I do not think this is a specific Apple like of issue but if the compass has more error to it then in the past their algorithm may not be good enough and shows more errors.
I think you may be correct on this. I think there might have been some changes made to the the algorithms in the compass and maps apps in iOS 7 of which Apple needs to address. Not criticizing them, they did a lot over the last year and bugs are to be expected, but I think some things can be improved slightly.
What's a little odd is that I also use Navigon when I get in to really remote locations and Maps is unable to grab data and I've yet to experience the same issues.
But who to report on Samsung, without kdarling around?
Sorry to hear about your poor delivery time Rich. Apple is releasing a gazillion countries next Friday, so it would be fair for you to already have received yours by then. Hang in there...
Maybe Apple will blame it on the user holding the phone incorrectly. They just need to tilt everything a few degrees.
That would work if they're all off by the same margin, if not it needs to be user adjusted.
That's not true. I understand you're trying to apply common sense. But consider that, if you have never really used and calibrated accelerometers before, it might be best not to inject an unqualified opinion. After all, you don't want to mislead people, do you?
Actually you may be misunderstanding assisted GPS, which simply refers to the use of other positional data (wifi, cell towers etc.) to speed up the initial GPS location fix. Once that position is roughly acquired then those additional data sources are disregarded, primarily because they are very inaccurate by comparison to the actual GPS data.
Which means that in absence of those other positional data and a weak GPS signal that you get wider margins of error in location and heading calculations. I've seen this happen on a variety of different phones. It's why in the apps that show the area where they think you are gets much, much larger when you have no data connection along with obviously a weak GPS signal. Both things that person brought up can be seen on a wide variety of GPS devices if they are having trouble getting very accurate positional and heading data. If this were simply a iPhone 5s and iOS 7 issue then I would not have been able to see it on Android phones I've owned and on my iPhone 5 running iOS 6. And even with accurate positioning I've seen apps like Waze have my vehicle pointing in the wrong direction then the way I'm going on more than a few occasions.
The figures the expert said are good, from my experience, bad sensors give alignment errors of about 5-10 degrees. The self calibration method I developed brought those down to 1-2 degrees! It's really easy to implement this feature via firmware update, and correct this bug.
What rubs me the wrong way is apple going for cheap (and worse) silicon on a premium priced device...
I hope they fix this soon. Just three days ago I nicked a wingtip on the roof a uranium refinement facility while flying my F22 on a recon mission over North Korea. I was using my 5s as a HUD coz the Raptor's dash has too many blinky lights.
I saw you do that, imperialist pig! Supreme Leader Kim will be sending you a bill!