Apple-backed patent consortium sues Google, major Android manufacturers

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  • Reply 121 of 166
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 20,912member
    rayz wrote: »
    Er, nothing you have said disproves anything about the 'fair licensing' argument.  An SEP must be licensed under fair and equitable terms and must not be used to blackmail the competition into letting you steal their stuff – which is what Samsung attempted to do.

    Now, is the RockStar consortium refusing to license the patents under fair and equitable terms?


    http://www.fosspatents.com/2013/11/failed-44-billion-bid-for-nortel.html

    Having watched Samsung having its head handed back to it in courts across the world, I'd be surprised if the Rockstar consortium would try the same tactic. It looks like Samsung, Google et al were offered terms, but refused them.

    In every patent suit it's assumed that the patent holder tried to reach agreement with "the infringer" but couldn't. Every patent holder will claim they made fair offers too. That doesn't mean that they made any serious effort or that the offer was really fair to both parties. Using the same Florian logic makes Apple a willful serial infringer many times over. Every inventor, competitor or troll that sues them claims Apple either refused to negotiate or turned down their good-faith offer.

    Remember this recent AI thread?
    http://forums.appleinsider.com/t/159241/patent-trolls-hit-apple-with-171-lawsuits-in-last-5-years
    Each one of those 171 "trolls" said it was Apple's fault and all they're doing is protecting their IP.
  • Reply 122 of 166
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 20,912member
    akqies wrote: »
    Are the patents Rockstar are trying to prevent on behalf of their clients in use by any of their clients? What does Lodsys or MOSAID produce or defensd on behalf of any client's products?

    Rockstar produces the same types and number of products as Lodsys and MOSAID and all three have the same general business model.
  • Reply 123 of 166
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,841member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post



    One other curious note. Rockstar's '298 patent that's being asserted against Samsung, HTC, Asus and others is listed as available to purchase outright, stated to be perhaps more valuable to others more so than Rockstar. image

    http://www.ip-rockstar.com/documents/Rockstar_Winter_2012_Catalogue.pdf

    More than likely, terms for a permanent license of unlimited usage, covering any previous infringement, not the sale of the patent itself. Samsung would be a good case for this type of license.

     

    Edit; It looks on closer inspection to be that the patent(s) may be encumbered with various licensees. A purchase for the right party might be a tool in negotiations against another party, but wouldn't affect existing licensees.

  • Reply 124 of 166
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post





    There's some indication that Blackberry has also chosen not to be involved with Rockstar Consortium. The investors may be down to four and gone even deeper into patent privatization, partnering with another NPE named Spherix. I hope Apple hasn't decided sleeping with Microsoft and attacking other businesses via trollish proxies is a good new business model for them, a "force for good in the world". Maybe the group will pare down to three with Apple dropping out, satisfied with ownership of 1000+ Nortel patents and licensee to all of them.



    One other curious note. Rockstar's '298 patent that's being asserted against Samsung, HTC, Asus and others is listed as available to purchase outright, stated to be perhaps more valuable to others more so than Rockstar. image

    http://www.ip-rockstar.com/documents/Rockstar_Winter_2012_Catalogue.pdf

     

    BlackBerry would be very foolish to drop out considering that they are the second largest contributor to the $4.5 Billion purchase.

     

    Apple   $2.6 Billion or 58% of the $4.5 Billion purchase

    BlackBerry  $770 million

    Ericsson  $340 million

    Microsoft, Sony, EMC $800 Million

     

    I don't think this is trollish at all.  

    They spent $4.5 billion for the patents, and as publicly traded companies, they are obligated to make the most of the patents.

    Remember how after Google paid $12 Billion for Motorola, they were passing patents to HTC, Samsung and others so they could sue Apple indirectly.  I think this lawsuit is most certainly fair game and this is a big deal.

     

    The patents are as follows:

    6,098,065

    7,236,969

    7,469,245

    7,672,970

    7,895,178

    7,895,183

    7,933,883

  • Reply 125 of 166
    tbelltbell Posts: 3,146member
    Wow. So Apple and Microsoft are just pathetic patent trolls now. They actually set up a Patent Holding Company to Patent Troll Google. That wreaks of desperation. I remember when Apple had ethics.

    So it is desperate to exercise rights to patents you paid 4 billion dollars for? Geez. What is the difference if Apple and Microsoft sue Google and company directly. This approach is smarter. Google can't try to stall things by counter suing.
  • Reply 126 of 166
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TBell View Post





    So it is desperate to exercise rights to patents you paid 4 billion dollars for? Geez. What is the difference if Apple and Microsoft sue Google and company directly. This approach is smarter. Google can't try to stall things by counter suing.

    This raises an interesting question. By acting through a shell company one avoids countersuits but also weakens one's hand. Since Rockstar claims to be acting independently of Apple and Microsoft and does not produce any product of its own, how would one calculate damages? The factor of lost profits would seem hard to apply here. The absence of product would also make an injunction harder to justify:

    Quote:

    In 2006, the Supreme Court in eBay Inc. v. Mercexchange, L.L.C., 547 U.S. 388 (2006), reiterated the traditional four-factor test for obtaining a permanent injunction....

    A plaintiff must demonstrate: (1) that it has suffered an irreparable injury; (2) that remedies available at law, such as monetary damages, are inadequate to compensate for that injury; (3) that, considering the balance of hardships between the plaintiff and defendant, a remedy in equity is warranted; and (4) that the public interest would not be disserved by a permanent injunction. (http://dritoday.org/feature.aspx?id=318)


  • Reply 127 of 166
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 20,912member
    I don't think this is trollish at all.  
    They spent $4.5 billion for the patents, and as publicly traded companies, they are obligated to make the most of the patents.</span>

    I'm not aware of Google serving any patents to Samsung. They did transfer ownership of 9 to HTC (some from Palm and Openwave and others Moto) after Apple had sued them IIRC, Perhaps those patents were so solid they're what prompted Apple to forge a full patent licensing agreement with HTC? That might be my guess. Maybe instead of giving them to HTC Google would have been even better off placing them with a "troll" for monetization.:\

    Anyway, since you believe Google paid $12B for MM's patents you then feel they must be remiss by not copying Apple's patent privatization plans and arming their own NPE with several thousand patents? Seems to be your suggestion Google isn't doing what's best for the company if they don't.
  • Reply 128 of 166

    To Gatorguy:

     

    Why are you trying to bring SEP's into the mix and claim Rockstar is doing something bad? Even if some of the patents are SEP's, who cares? There's nothing wrong with a NPE suing someone over SEP's if their previous negotiations have failed. Let the court decide a reasonable rate to pay. This is what happened to Motorola/MS and will soon happen with Samsung/Apple.

     

    What's wrong is if a NPE seeks an injunction. This is unfair as there's no way someone could seek an injunction against them since they don't sell any products.

     

    Do you have any proof that Rockstar is seeking injunctions? Or are they just suing to let a court decide license fees and infringement (which is 100% acceptable, SEP or not)?

  • Reply 129 of 166
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 20,912member
    To Gatorguy:

    Why are you trying to bring SEP's into the mix and claim Rockstar is doing something bad? Even if some of the patents are SEP's, who cares? There's nothing wrong with a NPE suing someone over SEP's if their previous negotiations have failed. Let the court decide a reasonable rate to pay. This is what happened to Motorola/MS and will soon happen with Samsung/Apple.

    What's wrong is if a NPE seeks an injunction. This is unfair as there's no way someone could seek an injunction against them since they don't sell any products.

    Do you have any proof that Rockstar is seeking injunctions? Or are they just suing to let a court decide license fees and infringement (which is 100% acceptable, SEP or not)?

    I'm not claiming Rockstar is doing anything wrong. They're doing just what an NPE is supposed to do. I would say tho that Tim Cook and Apple are being just as disingenuous and probably more so than Google, Nokia, Microsoft or any of the other big techs when it comes to IP. He complains about NPE's, aka "patent trolls", to the President while at the same time arming them behind the scenes. Not even Google does that, and while Nokia and Microsoft do at least they don't then complain about them and beg for help from Congress and the President.

    If Rockstar was funded by Google I can imagine your outrage. No actually I can't, as it would probably be off the charts.
    http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2013/06/tim-cook-complained-about-patent-trolls-in-may-and-today-president-obama-called-on-congress-to-assist-us-tech-companies.html
  • Reply 130 of 166
    splifsplif Posts: 592member

    You seem to live in a fantasy world & consistently contradict yourself. You consistently talk out of both sides of your ass.

     

    I'm not claiming Rockstar is doing anything wrong (BS disclaimer). They're doing just what an NPE is supposed to do. I would say tho that Tim Cook and Apple are being just as disingenuous and probably more so than Google, Nokia, Microsoft or any of the other big techs when it comes to IP. He complains about NPE's, aka "patent trolls", to the President while at the same time arming them behind the scenes. Not even Google does that, and while Nokia and Microsoft do at least they don't then complain about them and beg for help from Congress and the President.



    If Rockstar was funded by Google I can imagine your outrage. No actually I can't, as it would probably be off the charts.

    http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2013/06/tim-cook-complained-about-patent-trolls-in-may-and-today-president-obama-called-on-congress-to-assist-us-tech-companies.html

    Edited by Gatorguy - Today at 2:32 pm What total BS.

     

    FROM YOU"RE LINK - Obama also asked Congress to pass legislation providing incentives for patent-owning companies to make their licensing fee demand letters public, and to allow district court judges more discretion in awarding attorney's fees as a sanction for abusive patent lawsuits. Congress should also require companies that send demand letters, file infringement lawsuits or seek a patent review by the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office to file updated ownership information, allowing transparency about who is bringing those actions, Obama said.

    Of course,  this applies to all companies including Apple. So WTF are you talking about. You seem to be trying to say that Apple somehow asked for special treatment? When in fact the same laws would apply to Apple, Rockstar or your lover Google?
  • Reply 131 of 166
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post





    I'm not claiming Rockstar is doing anything wrong. They're doing just what an NPE is supposed to do. I would say tho that Tim Cook and Apple are being just as disingenuous and probably more so than Google, Nokia, Microsoft or any of the other big techs when it comes to IP. He complains about NPE's, aka "patent trolls", to the President while at the same time arming them behind the scenes. Not even Google does that, and while Nokia and Microsoft do at least they don't then complain about them and beg for help from Congress and the President.



    If Rockstar was funded by Google I can imagine your outrage. No actually I can't, as it would probably be off the charts.

    http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2013/06/tim-cook-complained-about-patent-trolls-in-may-and-today-president-obama-called-on-congress-to-assist-us-tech-companies.html

     

    Nothing changes with you, does it? First off, I don't get angry when something in the tech world happens that I disagree with. That's what the haters do, and I'm not a hater of anyone or any company.

     

    The problem with you is you like to paint things as black and white so you can then place Apple into a category you choose (in this case, patent troll). In the real world (which you like to ignore) nothing is ever so black and white.

     

    Here are a few facts for you to consider:

     

    - Google/Motorola abuse patents.

    - Samsung abuse patents.

    - Apple DOES NOT abuse patents.

     

    In fact, Google/Motorola and Samsung are the worst of the tech companies, by far. Proven in court.

  • Reply 132 of 166
    [LEFT]At any time I will have one device sitting on my table. Some of us don't encumber ourselves needlessly with 15 particular vendors because we are idiots, or because we have no attention span demands that we imagine ourselves proficient in all the popular eco systems. [/LEFT]
  • Reply 133 of 166
    cpsrocpsro Posts: 2,475member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post



    I'm not claiming Rockstar is doing anything wrong. They're doing just what an NPE is supposed to do. I would say tho that Tim Cook and Apple are being just as disingenuous and probably more so than Google, Nokia, Microsoft or any of the other big techs when it comes to IP. He complains about NPE's, aka "patent trolls", to the President while at the same time arming them behind the scenes. Not even Google does that, and while Nokia and Microsoft do at least they don't then complain about them and beg for help from Congress and the President.



    If Rockstar was funded by Google I can imagine your outrage. No actually I can't, as it would probably be off the charts.

    http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2013/06/tim-cook-complained-about-patent-trolls-in-may-and-today-president-obama-called-on-congress-to-assist-us-tech-companies.html

    Why are you so upset that some competitors of Google pooled their money to acquire some patents and then enforce them? The owners of Rockstar are practicing entities. Just because Rockstar is a separate entity from Apple, you're giving Apple/Cook grief? That's kinda lame IMHO.

     

    You should instead be giving grief to Google for having made a $4.4B offer for the Rockstar patent portfolio that it now claims is worthless. That's unquestionably disingenuous... and will come to bite them in the @ss.:smokey:

  • Reply 134 of 166
    EMC more than likely received some patents that were storage or networking related, that didn't go to the current Rockstar. They may have been in it for the patents, not the settlements and royalties.
  • Reply 135 of 166
    stelligentstelligent Posts: 2,680member

    There are no clean hands in this industry. Stop pretending otherwise.

  • Reply 136 of 166
    Originally Posted by stelligent View Post

    There are no clean hands in this industry.

     

    Sure there are. The clean hands are the ones who haven’t done any work of their own.

  • Reply 137 of 166
    stelligent wrote: »
    There are no clean hands in this industry. Stop pretending otherwise.

    - iOS has fragmentation so it's the same as Android. Stop pretending otherwise.
    - Apple has sought injunctions so they are the same as Samsung, Motorola and the rest. Stop pretending otherwise.
    - iOS can get malware too, so it's vulnerable just like Android. Stop pretending otherwise.

    You should stop pretending everything is black and white and that your "hands" can only be clean or dirty - nobody has hands anywhere between those two extremes.
  • Reply 138 of 166
    - iOS has fragmentation so it's the same as Android. Stop pretending otherwise.
    - Apple has sought injunctions so they are the same as Samsung, Motorola and the rest. Stop pretending otherwise.
    - iOS can get malware too, so it's vulnerable just like Android. Stop pretending otherwise.

    You should stop pretending everything is black and white and that your "hands" can only be clean or dirty - nobody has hands anywhere between those two extremes.

    What about multiple amputees?
  • Reply 139 of 166
    cpsrocpsro Posts: 2,475member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee View Post





    - iOS has fragmentation so it's the same as Android. Stop pretending otherwise.

    - Apple has sought injunctions so they are the same as Samsung, Motorola and the rest. Stop pretending otherwise.

    - iOS can get malware too, so it's vulnerable just like Android. Stop pretending otherwise.



    You should stop pretending everything is black and white and that your "hands" can only be clean or dirty - nobody has hands anywhere between those two extremes.

    - iOS fragmentation is not nearly as bad as Android. Stop pretending otherwise.

     

    - Apple has sought injunctions over infringement of its patents that are not standards essential, which makes Apple vastly different from Samsung and Googorola who are abusing their standards essential patents. That's why President Obama's office overturned the ban on Apple products but left intact the ban on Samsung products. Stop pretending otherwise.

     

    - iOS is much more difficult to catch malware than is Android. Some people might even argue Android itself is malware. Stop pretending otherwise.

     

    Despite the smoke and mirrors put up by the Android consortium, eventually the general public is going to recognize the intellectual property rights abuses Google has facilitated.

  • Reply 140 of 166
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 20,912member
    cpsro wrote: »
    Why are you so upset that some competitors of Google pooled their money to acquire some patents and then enforce them? The owners of Rockstar are practicing entities.

    Of course the owners are practicing companies. That's why they set up a troll, , , er, sorry, an NPE to do the dirty work of suing competitors. Doing it themselves could be dangerous to business but suing Rockstar in return is useless. They don't make anything. Apple and Microsoft get to claim they aren't breaking any promises they've made and hopefully keep the DoJ and FTC at bay by staying out of the limelight as simple investors with no control over how Rockstar operates.;)
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