That's amazing. Times two. Defenitely not good on the Genius. Strange; it seems that there's a total lack of consistency (which Solip won't like, as do I). Strange.
Yeah tech support is great out of Cupertino. I had a software issue and couldn't find an answer anywhere. So I thought what the heck, let me just post it on their support page. They contacted me, spending a lot of time figuring it out (MobileMe / Aperture) They made me go through many steps, uploading a dummy .aplibrary through their FTP server.
Was a cool experience, yet they were unable to fix it. Didn't go by phone, all through Chat Support.
Found the transcript; we had a laugh:
Me:
some things Apple does remain in the States (like video rentals in iTunes)
Me:
Sorry, don't mean to fish for any future products or whatever
Apple Tech Support:
Oh yes. We talk to people from everywhere. I have prepared responses for different languages telling them we have to speak in English since I'm not Chinese etc.
Apple Tech Support:
If I knew I couldn't tell you, but we usually only hear the day before ha. We are pretty low down the info pole.
Apple Tech Support:
Hidden away in a dark office building with minimal lighting etc.
Me:
sounds like you guys are set up well over there
Apple Tech Support:
On lone snack machine and a microwave.
Apple Tech Support:
Ha, I'm just joking.
Me:
maybe low down, but definitely helping out!
Me:
but you do have a cook who cooks Thai meals, I read at [email protected] somewhere
Apple Tech Support:
Ha, not at this site.
Apple Tech Support:
I will have to get a transfer.
Sounds a happy chap. That helps. I think it must be far less stressful than being a Genius and dealing with real people face to face. I'd probably go 'postal' after a few days in that job. So I can't blame them being defensive and aggressive at times. That support blog Apple has doesn't always help IMHO, some really bad Mac misinformation manifest and proliferates there. I can just imagine many folks waltz into an Apple Store convinced that have certain issues they don't, reinforced in that belief by the Apple Support web site information they have read (posted by other users), and get aggressive themselves when their belief system is challenged. Hence I prefer the nice slow and calm telephone call to a tech in CA.
Initially I loved everything about Apple. The whole philosophy of "Think Different" resonated positively with me. Then when I had questions I started going to the official Apple Support Forum. I quickly learned that the company stifles dissent no matter how justified it is. They delete threads all over the place. They don't delete posts as far as I can tell but they just delete a whole useful thread if they don't like an individual post. That behavior totally goes against the whole freedom to create and think different ideal.
Later I had a defective battery that was proven to be the same as the batteries made by Sony that were recalled the year before my model. Apple refused to replace it until I contacted the Consumer Product Safety Commission. Only then did they accept it as defective. It had expanded in size by several millimeters.
This screen fault is clearly not caused by the users. It is a hardware issue that is pervasive. Someone in Apple who has authority has already made the decision that they won't deal with this problem fairly. There is no way that this many failures hasn't been brought to the attention of upper management. They have decided that if you are out of warranty you are out of luck.
In another thread there is a very good suggestion that could help everybody in the long run. Everybody with this problem should go to Amazon.com and leave negative reviews stating your exact problem. Do it on every Mac Sales site too. With all of these true accounts spread around the web it will have an effect. It could in the long run change Apples policy of not recalling or at least not fixing genuine hardware design or manufacturing flaws honorably. It will in time bite them in the a$$ when sales drop.
This also reinforces the iFixit position that when machines are crammed tightly into small packages and don't have user friendly repairable parts they are prohibitively expensive to fix. How many of you would prefer to have a machine that was bigger and weighed one or even two pounds more but didn't have these cooling problems?
People have a habit of thinking that these are $3k expenses when they fail. 3 year old $3k laptops are only worth around $1000-1400 so that's the loss if it fails after 3 years. They can be sold on right now and replaced with refurbs with warranties:
and those warranties can be extended to another 3 years. There's no sense in holding onto old technology until it gives up and then mourning the huge initial outlay. If people keep selling and upgrading, that doesn't happen.
While there's no 17" model any more, the rMBP offers the same working resolution so eventually people will just have to get over it because the machines won't hold out forever.
While that is true, it's annoying to have to make the switch based on a guessing game of whether something will fail. Sometimes it's not an ideal time for an expensive purchase. I also do not personally like the idea of pawning off a ticking time bomb on someone else. Whenever someone does ask, I suggest they be careful about used computer purchases. Typically it's a matter of considering potential repair and service when you want to decide on an upper price limit. Batteries are a prime example, because it's a bad idea to leave a failing battery in the machine. Battery service can range from roughly $130-200 depending on the machine, so it's important to take that under consideration if you intend to purchase a notebook that is 2 or more years old with the original battery.
On a side note, I use a notebook quite a bit of the time, especially for lighter tasks and due to portability. In terms of notebooks, it's more interesting to go for one with integrated graphics assuming they are reasonably powerful. I don't know why people always compare it just in terms of discrete to integrated. A 750m for all practical purposes does not deliver bleeding edge performance in anything. It's merely one of the higher specced options if a mobile solution is a necessity.
I quickly learned that the company stifles dissent no matter how justified it is. They delete threads all over the place.
It doesn't make much sense that a company would leave something with such negative PR in a place closely associated with their company. Their forum is a support forum where people can find solutions from other Mac users. There isn't a solution to the problem that can be fixed via the forum, it's a hardware problem. These kind of complaints are better suited for 3rd party forums like this. That's not to say they are covering up a big problem as described below.
It is a hardware issue that is pervasive. Someone in Apple who has authority has already made the decision that they won't deal with this problem fairly. There is no way that this many failures hasn't been brought to the attention of upper management. They have decided that if you are out of warranty you are out of luck.
Nobody knows how many failures there are. Saying 'this many' is meaningless. If a forum has 100 pages of comments with 20 unique complaints per page, that's 2000 failures out of a potential 3 million customers (0.07% failure rate).
If they decide to fix some, where does it end? Do they commit to fixing every defect that occurs with similar symptoms after 4 years/5 years/6 years? There were people with the 8600M GT failure complaining just this year:
That's after 6 or 7 years of owning the machine, which is now barely worth $500. No company is obligated to provide free support for a product outside of warranty. If the actual failure rate isn't high then it's not as widespread a problem as a concentrated forum thread would suggest and doesn't deserve a recall or extended warranty.
Products break: hard drives, monitors, fans, power supplies. When those things break, people don't always assume there's a defect. When a GPU or motherboard fails, people immediately assume a defect and that it's Apple's problem. It might be a defect with the AMD chips getting too hot. If AMD won't refund the cost of supplies (and they can't afford to these days), Apple has to pay for someone else's fault.
This also reinforces the iFixit position that when machines are crammed tightly into small packages and don't have user friendly repairable parts they are prohibitively expensive to fix. How many of you would prefer to have a machine that was bigger and weighed one or even two pounds more but didn't have these cooling problems?
Nope because for one thing, the latest ones are even thinner than the 2011 models and there's no indication that they have cooling problems. There's a test here showing temps running an intense graphics benchmark for 15 minutes:
The 750M went up to 77C, Iris Pro went up to 70. There were reports of the old models going up to 90-100 degrees.
The temperatures are interesting, and quite a difference from the older models. I've still noted very few threads complaining about integrated graphics failure though. It will be interesting to see if Apple releases upgrade options on the mac pro too. Many people didn't use them as upgrades but as a source of spare parts. It's the one card I can't find on there now, but they used to carry the 5770 upgrade kit. If a gpu failed on a 1,1 through 3,1 it could be replaced at minimal cost.
I started experiencing this about two months ago on my 17" MBP and I am out of my AppleCare period. I cannot play any games or even videos as it will hard lock the computer, even after performing all of the steps listed in the post and comments.
I started experiencing this about two months ago on my 17" MBP and I am out of my AppleCare period. I cannot play any games or even videos as it will hard lock the computer, even after performing all of the steps listed in the post and comments.
It would be good if Apple provided a reliable solution for disabling the dedicated GPU and should be possible via a software method. This would at least give people a laptop they could work with and resell and the only downside would be reduced graphics performance in having to use the HD3000, which people are having to try using anyway to avoid crashes. It would actually be useful to have that feature in every machine with an IGP and dGPU so that a dedicated GPU could be disabled. When the OS automatically switches from the IGP to the dedicated GPU, it can change the display profile so the colors on the display can change dramatically and it changes back when it stops doing something requiring the dedicated GPU. It can happen with something as simple as a Flash video as it uses hardware acceleration.
My 2011 Macbook went from perfectly fine too totally dead in a two day period... This is definitely the problem, glad to find this article!
Unfortunately apple doesn't acknowledge the problem and said when I called that not enough people have called about the issue for them to do anything about it...'
-If you do have a problem I would recommend calling Apple and mentioning this article, it seems to be a widespread problem and seems like it deserves an Apple response... The customer service reply that "I don't for-see any type of response from Apple about a two year old machine" personally doesn't cut it for me... It's barely more than TWO YEARS OLD; thats a recent computer and with the good history of longevity in apple products, this deserves some type of response.
If you send one in for service, they replace the logic board. Re-soldering is not an official repair option. I think he was referring to the problems with lead-free solder, which do less for the environment than you might hope given the alternative materials used.
Apple will do the same thing they did with my PowerBook G3, nothing. The hinges broke because they were made of pot metal and it was rendered useless. Apple has a mixed record as far as Customer Service goes.
Just out of curiosity, who performed the re-soldering? Would you recommend them to anyone else?
I used an established mail-order repair shop called PowerbookMedic. They are not specific about the repair they perform, and it is too early to tell how well they did it. The returned logic board looked good with mirror-polished chip heat transfer surfaces and clean, new holding glue for the GPU. It has been working fine for the past couple of weeks. Their service have been good. They are called powerbookmedic.
I used an established mail-order repair shop called PowerbookMedic. They are not specific about the repair they perform, and it is too early to tell how well they did it. The returned logic board looked good with mirror-polished chip heat transfer surfaces and clean, new holding glue for the GPU. It has been working fine for the past couple of weeks. Their service have been good. They are called powerbookmedic.
I wonder which is better, that or a replacement logic board from Apple. If they offer out of warranty depot repair, it shouldn't be much over $300. To clarify, the reason I'm not entirely sure is that Apple's repair stock may include refurbished logic boards, and I don't know if the gpu reseating method is superior to the original process in terms of longevity.
Graphics corruption is also a widespread issue for the Macbook Pro mid-2010 15" computer, Model ID 6,2 with Intel i5 main processor and nVidia dedicated graphics chip. In fact, I came to this site today with the intent to make this issue more visible to the Mac journalist and broader user community, and was surprised to find the thread I'm posting into now!
Apple is aware of the issue. The Genius Bar had a pre-defined diagnostics test expressly for it, and the Apple technician told me as such. Also, despite the fact that my Applecare ran out in September, Apple replaced my Logic board at no charge whatsoever. This has not resolved the issue
Most of the people participating in this discussion have the same problem, with the same model of computer, although it appears that some Mac Minis have it also. There is a concensus that the work-around is to change a setting in Energy Saver (see http://support.apple.com/kb/HT4110 ), but that runs the battery down more quickly. In other words, it's a hardware issue outside of the end user's control, which has a tangible negative impact.
Unless I'm missing something, it appears that three outcomes remain:
1) Mavericks 10.9.2 offers a fix (not a work-around)
2) Apple replaces these machines altogether (with a model that has a different hardware design, not subject to this issue)
3) Apple does nothing further, and risks its customer goodwill.
The second alternative may seem drastic and expensive (to Apple), but we didn't ask for this issue. It's not our fault. If MacOS 10.9.2 doesn't address this problem, we may have no choice but to ask them to remedy this issue by replacing our machines with equivalent current models.
I used an established mail-order repair shop called PowerbookMedic. They are not specific about the repair they perform, and it is too early to tell how well they did it. The returned logic board looked good with mirror-polished chip heat transfer surfaces and clean, new holding glue for the GPU. It has been working fine for the past couple of weeks. Their service have been good. They are called powerbookmedic.
Thanks!!! I've purchased a few things from them in the past—seem to be good folks.
Any news in this? I'm having the same problem and, since Apple isn't acknowledging it I'll have to repair it myself... It seems to me that this is a broad problem that Apple should take care of.
Took my 2011 MBPIn to the Apple Store for its second logic board in 6 months. Not sure what I'll do when my Apple Care runs out in April. I've also had to replace the power cord twice - and I'm very careful with my gear.
Comments
Sounds a happy chap. That helps. I think it must be far less stressful than being a Genius and dealing with real people face to face. I'd probably go 'postal' after a few days in that job. So I can't blame them being defensive and aggressive at times. That support blog Apple has doesn't always help IMHO, some really bad Mac misinformation manifest and proliferates there. I can just imagine many folks waltz into an Apple Store convinced that have certain issues they don't, reinforced in that belief by the Apple Support web site information they have read (posted by other users), and get aggressive themselves when their belief system is challenged. Hence I prefer the nice slow and calm telephone call to a tech in CA.
Initially I loved everything about Apple. The whole philosophy of "Think Different" resonated positively with me. Then when I had questions I started going to the official Apple Support Forum. I quickly learned that the company stifles dissent no matter how justified it is. They delete threads all over the place. They don't delete posts as far as I can tell but they just delete a whole useful thread if they don't like an individual post. That behavior totally goes against the whole freedom to create and think different ideal.
Later I had a defective battery that was proven to be the same as the batteries made by Sony that were recalled the year before my model. Apple refused to replace it until I contacted the Consumer Product Safety Commission. Only then did they accept it as defective. It had expanded in size by several millimeters.
This screen fault is clearly not caused by the users. It is a hardware issue that is pervasive. Someone in Apple who has authority has already made the decision that they won't deal with this problem fairly. There is no way that this many failures hasn't been brought to the attention of upper management. They have decided that if you are out of warranty you are out of luck.
In another thread there is a very good suggestion that could help everybody in the long run. Everybody with this problem should go to Amazon.com and leave negative reviews stating your exact problem. Do it on every Mac Sales site too. With all of these true accounts spread around the web it will have an effect. It could in the long run change Apples policy of not recalling or at least not fixing genuine hardware design or manufacturing flaws honorably. It will in time bite them in the a$$ when sales drop.
This also reinforces the iFixit position that when machines are crammed tightly into small packages and don't have user friendly repairable parts they are prohibitively expensive to fix. How many of you would prefer to have a machine that was bigger and weighed one or even two pounds more but didn't have these cooling problems?
People have a habit of thinking that these are $3k expenses when they fail. 3 year old $3k laptops are only worth around $1000-1400 so that's the loss if it fails after 3 years. They can be sold on right now and replaced with refurbs with warranties:
http://store.apple.com/us/product/FD103LL/A/refurbished-macbook-pro-23ghz-quad-core-intel-i7
http://store.apple.com/us/product/FC975LL/A/refurbished-macbook-pro-23ghz-quad-core-intel-i7-with-retina-display
and those warranties can be extended to another 3 years. There's no sense in holding onto old technology until it gives up and then mourning the huge initial outlay. If people keep selling and upgrading, that doesn't happen.
While there's no 17" model any more, the rMBP offers the same working resolution so eventually people will just have to get over it because the machines won't hold out forever.
While that is true, it's annoying to have to make the switch based on a guessing game of whether something will fail. Sometimes it's not an ideal time for an expensive purchase. I also do not personally like the idea of pawning off a ticking time bomb on someone else. Whenever someone does ask, I suggest they be careful about used computer purchases. Typically it's a matter of considering potential repair and service when you want to decide on an upper price limit. Batteries are a prime example, because it's a bad idea to leave a failing battery in the machine. Battery service can range from roughly $130-200 depending on the machine, so it's important to take that under consideration if you intend to purchase a notebook that is 2 or more years old with the original battery.
On a side note, I use a notebook quite a bit of the time, especially for lighter tasks and due to portability. In terms of notebooks, it's more interesting to go for one with integrated graphics assuming they are reasonably powerful. I don't know why people always compare it just in terms of discrete to integrated. A 750m for all practical purposes does not deliver bleeding edge performance in anything. It's merely one of the higher specced options if a mobile solution is a necessity.
It doesn't make much sense that a company would leave something with such negative PR in a place closely associated with their company. Their forum is a support forum where people can find solutions from other Mac users. There isn't a solution to the problem that can be fixed via the forum, it's a hardware problem. These kind of complaints are better suited for 3rd party forums like this. That's not to say they are covering up a big problem as described below.
Nobody knows how many failures there are. Saying 'this many' is meaningless. If a forum has 100 pages of comments with 20 unique complaints per page, that's 2000 failures out of a potential 3 million customers (0.07% failure rate).
If they decide to fix some, where does it end? Do they commit to fixing every defect that occurs with similar symptoms after 4 years/5 years/6 years? There were people with the 8600M GT failure complaining just this year:
http://forums.appleinsider.com/t/142372/problem-with-macbook-pro-nvidia-graphics-card/40#post_2453203
That's after 6 or 7 years of owning the machine, which is now barely worth $500. No company is obligated to provide free support for a product outside of warranty. If the actual failure rate isn't high then it's not as widespread a problem as a concentrated forum thread would suggest and doesn't deserve a recall or extended warranty.
Products break: hard drives, monitors, fans, power supplies. When those things break, people don't always assume there's a defect. When a GPU or motherboard fails, people immediately assume a defect and that it's Apple's problem. It might be a defect with the AMD chips getting too hot. If AMD won't refund the cost of supplies (and they can't afford to these days), Apple has to pay for someone else's fault.
Nope because for one thing, the latest ones are even thinner than the 2011 models and there's no indication that they have cooling problems. There's a test here showing temps running an intense graphics benchmark for 15 minutes:
http://www.elie.im/blog/web/high-end-macbook-pro-retina-late-2013-15-benchmark
The 750M went up to 77C, Iris Pro went up to 70. There were reports of the old models going up to 90-100 degrees.
http://www.elie.im/blog/web/high-end-macbook-pro-retina-late-2013-15-benchmark
The 750M went up to 77C, Iris Pro went up to 70. There were reports of the old models going up to 90-100 degrees.
The temperatures are interesting, and quite a difference from the older models. I've still noted very few threads complaining about integrated graphics failure though. It will be interesting to see if Apple releases upgrade options on the mac pro too. Many people didn't use them as upgrades but as a source of spare parts. It's the one card I can't find on there now, but they used to carry the 5770 upgrade kit. If a gpu failed on a 1,1 through 3,1 it could be replaced at minimal cost.
It would be good if Apple provided a reliable solution for disabling the dedicated GPU and should be possible via a software method. This would at least give people a laptop they could work with and resell and the only downside would be reduced graphics performance in having to use the HD3000, which people are having to try using anyway to avoid crashes. It would actually be useful to have that feature in every machine with an IGP and dGPU so that a dedicated GPU could be disabled. When the OS automatically switches from the IGP to the dedicated GPU, it can change the display profile so the colors on the display can change dramatically and it changes back when it stops doing something requiring the dedicated GPU. It can happen with something as simple as a Flash video as it uses hardware acceleration.
Unfortunately apple doesn't acknowledge the problem and said when I called that not enough people have called about the issue for them to do anything about it...'
-If you do have a problem I would recommend calling Apple and mentioning this article, it seems to be a widespread problem and seems like it deserves an Apple response... The customer service reply that "I don't for-see any type of response from Apple about a two year old machine" personally doesn't cut it for me... It's barely more than TWO YEARS OLD; thats a recent computer and with the good history of longevity in apple products, this deserves some type of response.
Call Apple Care!
Early 2011 MBP's are dropping like flies.
The permanent fix seems to be to re-solder the GPU with lead solder.
How much does this re-solder job typically cost?
How much does this re-solder job typically cost?
If you send one in for service, they replace the logic board. Re-soldering is not an official repair option. I think he was referring to the problems with lead-free solder, which do less for the environment than you might hope given the alternative materials used.
Just forked $300 for a re-seating of GPU (pulling it out and re-soldering). Bad connection of GPU to logic board is the root cause of this issue.
Just out of curiosity, who performed the re-soldering? Would you recommend them to anyone else?
Just out of curiosity, who performed the re-soldering? Would you recommend them to anyone else?
I used an established mail-order repair shop called PowerbookMedic. They are not specific about the repair they perform, and it is too early to tell how well they did it. The returned logic board looked good with mirror-polished chip heat transfer surfaces and clean, new holding glue for the GPU. It has been working fine for the past couple of weeks. Their service have been good. They are called powerbookmedic.
I used an established mail-order repair shop called PowerbookMedic. They are not specific about the repair they perform, and it is too early to tell how well they did it. The returned logic board looked good with mirror-polished chip heat transfer surfaces and clean, new holding glue for the GPU. It has been working fine for the past couple of weeks. Their service have been good. They are called powerbookmedic.
I wonder which is better, that or a replacement logic board from Apple. If they offer out of warranty depot repair, it shouldn't be much over $300. To clarify, the reason I'm not entirely sure is that Apple's repair stock may include refurbished logic boards, and I don't know if the gpu reseating method is superior to the original process in terms of longevity.
Further details are in this Apple Discussions thread: https://discussions.apple.com/message/23555002#23555002 . This thread contains a number of screen shots from multiple users.
Apple is aware of the issue. The Genius Bar had a pre-defined diagnostics test expressly for it, and the Apple technician told me as such. Also, despite the fact that my Applecare ran out in September, Apple replaced my Logic board at no charge whatsoever. This has not resolved the issue
Most of the people participating in this discussion have the same problem, with the same model of computer, although it appears that some Mac Minis have it also. There is a concensus that the work-around is to change a setting in Energy Saver (see http://support.apple.com/kb/HT4110 ), but that runs the battery down more quickly. In other words, it's a hardware issue outside of the end user's control, which has a tangible negative impact.
Unless I'm missing something, it appears that three outcomes remain:
1) Mavericks 10.9.2 offers a fix (not a work-around)
2) Apple replaces these machines altogether (with a model that has a different hardware design, not subject to this issue)
3) Apple does nothing further, and risks its customer goodwill.
The second alternative may seem drastic and expensive (to Apple), but we didn't ask for this issue. It's not our fault. If MacOS 10.9.2 doesn't address this problem, we may have no choice but to ask them to remedy this issue by replacing our machines with equivalent current models.
[IMG ALT=""]http://forums.appleinsider.com/content/type/61/id/37611/width/350/height/700[/IMG]
I used an established mail-order repair shop called PowerbookMedic. They are not specific about the repair they perform, and it is too early to tell how well they did it. The returned logic board looked good with mirror-polished chip heat transfer surfaces and clean, new holding glue for the GPU. It has been working fine for the past couple of weeks. Their service have been good. They are called powerbookmedic.
Thanks!!! I've purchased a few things from them in the past—seem to be good folks.
- Short: http://bit.ly/mbpe2011petition
- Full: https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/Apple_Inc_Macbook_Pro_15_17_Early_2011_Replacement_Program
Ooh, an online petition. I’m sure that will work. It’s not like they’ve never worked, ever.