Samsung expert says Apple patents worth $38.4M, not $2.2B

135

Comments

  • Reply 41 of 90
    tenlytenly Posts: 710member
    To repeat what others have said over and over: The patents in question here are not "standards essential" and therefore "fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory" do not come into play. Apple can choose ANY price for these patents. They can charge $1 per device to HTC and $1000 per device to Samsung. They can also decide not to license the patents to anybody at any price - or so they should be able to. Samsung took that option away from them by stealing them. Willful theft (in my opinion) should automatically triple whatever the final award is - with Apple receiving 2/3 of that award and the remaining third going into a fund to reform the entire patent process. But I digress...

    Samsung knew that Apple did not want to license these patents, so their only option was deliberate infringement. Samsung as a company may be unethical, untrustworthy and the company may be run by thieves and liars - but it is definitely not run by "stupid" people. Samsung *knew* that they would have to pay for the use of these patents eventually - via legal actions exactly like this one - and therefore Samsung's very own internal calculations must have determined that the inclusion of these 5 stolen features would result in enough additional devices being sold to more than make up for any damages awarded via a legal action. These facts alone should serve as proof positive that the features in question are very valuable.

    In my opinion, $40 per device is too little and not enough to prevent Samsung from using the same tactic in the future. Apple needs to be compensated fairly for the unauthorized use of their technology as well as for lost device sales and the lost income that would have come from onboarding those users into the Apple Ecosystem - including lost commissions on music sales, app purchases, advertising revenue, etc. (not just the initial purchase of the hardware itself)

    And in order to discourage Samsung and other companies from using this technique on an ongoing basis, there needs to be a punitive portion to the award. My suggestion would be to require that Samsung send out a communication to ALL owners of the infringing devices with an explanation/apology for their theft of Apple technology as well as an offer to SUBSIDIZE the purchase of a new iPhone by $40.
  • Reply 42 of 90
    tenlytenly Posts: 710member

    Will damages be calculated based on the number of infringing phones that Samsung has "sold", or the number they have "shipped"?

    (Since the media and analysts seem to think that shipped=sold, I think we should definitely use the numbers the Analyst's have been reporting in any damages calculation!)

     

    Will Samsung be required to take out a newspaper ad and modify their web-site to include an admission of guilt and an apology for stealing Apple technology as well as a link to Apple's "Shop iPhone" web-page?

    (I would love to hear Samsung's response to this type of order and their reasoning for why this would be extremely unfair.)

  • Reply 43 of 90
    drblankdrblank Posts: 3,385member

    Would someone check the calculations.

     

    My calculations of $.35 x 5 (number of patents) x 37 Million units doesn't come out to $38.4 Million.

  • Reply 44 of 90
    mode 5mode 5 Posts: 59member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by AdonisSMU View Post

     

    I'm shocked they are trying to have multiple defenses.


     

    It's all part of their cunning plan to eventually plead, insanity! 

  • Reply 45 of 90
    apple ][apple ][ Posts: 9,233member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post





    Speaking of, last night's Cosmos episode was excellent.

    I've been following Cosmos, but I haven't seen the last episode yet. Obviously, there's something that I'm missing here.

  • Reply 46 of 90
    connieconnie Posts: 101member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

     

    I can't help but wonder what would really happen if Apple decided to make a line of cheap plastic iPhones (maybe call them something else for the low-end market) to utterly gut Samsung's worldwide position as "top Android phone."


    It is called the iPhone 5 C.

  • Reply 47 of 90
    deanbardeanbar Posts: 113member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by leighr View Post



    Well at least they're admitting that they stole/copied from Apple - let's face it, it was obvious to everyone - but now they're going into damage control, while they continue to profit from stolen IP.

    My sentiments exactly! They are finally up against the wall and having to admit they did copy. Game over, just waiting for jury to award massive damages. :D

  • Reply 48 of 90
    Talk about dog bites man! You would expect to them to make a competitive lower bid but $38million is ridiculously low when considering the income those patents have generated in the sum of Apple's patents. It's the march of the Me2's
  • Reply 49 of 90
    drblank wrote: »
    Would someone check the calculations.

    My calculations of $.35 x 5 (number of patents) x 37 Million units doesn't come out to $38.4 Million.
    $64,750 mill to be precise
  • Reply 50 of 90
    haarhaar Posts: 563member
    solipsismx wrote: »
    Maybe Samsung will turns state's witness against Sony. ;)

    well, that is unfair to drag Sony into this!. besmirching the good name of Sony!...
    Seriously, have you noticed that Sony DOES NOT copy?.... look at the products that they made and make, they are all diffferent from apple's products.

    Sony, had the number one name and product the music business!... (Walkman) did they try to copy apple to regain the business back?... really all they had to do was add they AAC codec to the their walkmans!.

    Some of the reasons why the late Steve Jobs loved Sony products.
  • Reply 51 of 90
    haarhaar Posts: 563member
    $64,750 mill to be precise

    is it 64 . 750 billion?... or 64 . 750 million?... "mill" as in million.
    BUT on the other hand, i like the 64 billion number as damages better!..:D
  • Reply 52 of 90
    crossladcrosslad Posts: 527member

    So apple has to pay $21m dollars to SSB for using a clock face, Marvell Technology Group has to pay $1.5 bn dollars to the University of Pittsburgh for patents used in hard disks ( http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/east/2014/04/01/324944.htm ), and Samsung thinks that ripping off technology used in probably the largest consumer product of the current time is only worth $38.4m?  Apples lawyers need to bring in reference to the Marvell case when discussing damages.  The legal precedent has been set.

  • Reply 53 of 90
    MacProMacPro Posts: 19,718member
    solipsismx wrote: »
    It's how all crime drama interrogations unfold with the less intelligent criminals.

    First they claim to have no idea what the detectives are talking about. Then once they are caught they finally admit they did know or see whatever was previously mentioned but that they didn't know them that well or see much of anything. The only part that is different is when they get pinned for the murder (usually) they finally come clean about some other bad crime they were committing that is less than murder.

    In all the TV shows I watch (my source of legal knowledge) if they 'didn't cop a plea and fess up at the start, it'll go harder on them' ....
  • Reply 54 of 90
    MacProMacPro Posts: 19,718member
    greatrix wrote: »
    Talk about dog bites man! You would expect to them to make a competitive lower bid but $38million is ridiculously low when considering the income those patents have generated in the sum of Apple's patents. It's the march of the Me2's

    I was thinking the same thing. I would have thought it was actually partially quantifiable. Let's not also not forget, not only Apple's losses are involved but Scamsungs illicit gains too, there are two dogs in the race when counting monies here I would hope. It's a shame Apple can't get them under the Rico Act and seize all their other assets. See, I said I watch too much Netflix ... :D
  • Reply 55 of 90
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,176member
    Testimony at trial: For iOS 4, 5 and 6 Apple deferred about $10 in revenue for iOS upgrades. Each update has hundreds of features, so each only worth 5-10 cents.

    In unrelated news Motorola has finally signed a patent licensing deal with Microsoft.









    Just not the Motorola [B]Mobility[/B] soon to be owned by Lenovo. The licensee is Motorola [B]Solutions[/B]. Someone is sure to misreport it.
  • Reply 56 of 90
    $38.4 million.... That judge really needs to throw the book at them. SO you think only $38.4 million huh? How much have you spent on lawyers and such on this upto now? More than $38.4 million. So why did you not just pay them in the first place... right because that is not the figure Apple would have charged you, more like the figure they have set. And you r units would have been more expensive, and not sold as many units. Now sit down and shut up and let the grown ups talk about how much your actually going to pay, besides the legal fees....
  • Reply 57 of 90
    drblankdrblank Posts: 3,385member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Lord Amhran View Post





    $64,750 mill to be precise

    Same number i got.  If that person that gave testimony can't do the most simple of calculations, then I would have that "expert" thrown out off the case in terms of figuring out how much they owe.  I'm surprised the Judge didn't catch that one.  LOL.

  • Reply 58 of 90
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    haar wrote: »
    well, that is unfair to drag Sony into this!. besmirching the good name of Sony!...
    Seriously, have you noticed that Sony DOES NOT copy?.... look at the products that they made and make, they are all diffferent from apple's products.

    Sony, had the number one name and product the music business!... (Walkman) did they try to copy apple to regain the business back?... really all they had to do was add they AAC codec to the their walkmans!.

    Some of the reasons why the late Steve Jobs loved Sony products.

    I choose Sony because they are a Japanese company and Samsung is S. Korean. IOW, longstanding feuding between each and in no way a comment about Sony stealing or copying others.
  • Reply 59 of 90
    icoco3icoco3 Posts: 1,474member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post



    ... a Samsung damages expert said Apple should be granted $38.4 million for all five alleged-infringed patents, far from the $2.19 billion Apple is seeking.


    ...


    Samsung expert witness Judith Chevalier, an economics and finance professor at Yale University, said her calculations of reasonable royalty rates came out to 35 cents per patent per infringing device, reports CNET. If a lump sum payment were to be doled out to Apple, Samsung would pay around $38.4 million for more than 37 million devices.



    "My analysis compensates Apple through a reasonable royalty and...I have determined Apple has not lost sales as a result of Samsung's practice of the patents," Chevalier said, explaining why she did not include damages for lost profits.



    The number is leagues away from Apple's patent valuation arguments that put total damages at $2.19 billion for patents infringed between August 2011 and the end of 2013. That equates to an average $40 per infringing Samsung device.



    "We have to conclude that the differences in profitability across these products is being driven by something else other than the practice of these patents," Chevalier said. "The value created by these products is really negligible."



    On cross-examination, Apple attorney Bill Lee went after Chevalier's methods. In her evaluation, the Yale professor incorporated reviews from customers, one of which came from an iPhone user who claimed "Seerei" shot him with a gun.



    Apple is asserting five patents against various Samsung products running Google's Android operating system, including "swipe-to-unlock," data detectors and universal search.



    For its part, Samsung calls Apple's patent damages claims a "gross exaggeration" of their actual worth and has been presenting testimony in line with that thinking. Last week, Samsung experts presented studies that sought to prove Apple was "elevating artificially the importance" of certain features covered by the five patents.



    Following Chevalier's testimony, Samsung rested its defense case and proceeded to call witnesses for a countersuit against Apple. The Korean company is leveraging two patents against a number of Apple products.

     

    Is it just me or has Samsung spent its whole defense not saying we aren't guilty but trying to minimize the damage claim?  Their own testimony says "we are guilty but actually owe a smaller amount."

     

    Apple can charge $100 per patent per phone if it feels like it since they own the patents.  Samsung should fire its lawyers.

  • Reply 60 of 90
    drblankdrblank Posts: 3,385member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post





    I choose Sony because they are a Japanese company and Samsung is S. Korean. IOW, longstanding feuding between each and in no way a comment about Sony stealing or copying others.

    Sony can make decent products when they put their minds to it, but they usually charge a LOT more money for the better products. Same goes with a lot of these mfg that make the main component and finished products.   You still have to be a little careful just because it has the name Sony on it.  But people can get easily brainwashed into thinking that just because it has a certain name on the outside that it's a high quality product.  Some have been control standards from their bottom end products to their top end products, some don't.  BMW has different levels of quality from their 3 series to their 7 series.  The 3 series are made in places like Mexico, and the 7 series are made in Germany.  Things like that.  In the musical instrument industry, not all Fender guitars are made by experience Luthiers in the US, the cheaper products are made in Japan and Mexico, etc. by mass assembly lines, hence the price difference.  One is just spit out like any other product and some have a lot more handwork, hand selection of woods, and more quality control in the mfg process that can't be mfg on a big assembly line.

     

    Yeah, there's been a long standing feud between Japan and Korea.  It's like the McCoys and Hatfields.   It dates back from a LONG time ago.   I dated a woman from Korea and she explained it to me.  in some areas even the Sushi bars are owned and operated by Koreans, yet the average Joe doesn't know this.  I know several of these in my area.  It's funny because most people are oblivious as to how to tell the difference.

Sign In or Register to comment.