But you don't think the 'newness' of the Apple Stores is creating artificially high sales?
This isn't about being stingy or anything. Compare any of the major indices right now vs the days before Sept. 11. The 'economic' disaster was short lived.
On Sept 1, for example, the DJIA was lower than it is right now. The NASDAQ was even lower, relatively. Clearly, the tech market hasn't been hurt too much more by 9/11...not like the airline industry, not like tourism in general. The tech market was already catatonic...9/11 was like beating a dead horse.
[quote]Let's just say my mother is an assistant principal (pretty good pay) and she considered being an apple store manager and didn't have to fear much of a pay cut<hr></blockquote>
Let's just say my mother is an assistant principal (pretty good pay) and she considered being an apple store manager and didn't have to fear much of a pay cut</strong><hr></blockquote>
hmmm... Let's start critizising this company for paying their staff too much!!! Yes, that's such a bad way of doing business. There must be something wrong with this company. They could end up with only high quality, competent and service minded emplyoes. The horror of that...
No workers should be keept at bay. Make them struggle. Don't spoil them for gods sake. They may even start to like their job...
<strong>hmmm... Let's start critizising this company for paying their staff too much!!! Yes, that's such a bad way of doing business. There must be something wrong with this company. They could end up with only high quality, competent and service minded emplyoes. The horror of that...
No workers should be keept at bay. Make them struggle. Don't spoil them for gods sake. They may even start to like their job... </strong><hr></blockquote>
Eugene - your newness argument doesn't work, that would be to claim that stores don't increase their market penetration over time ... if so, I can't see how anyone succeeds.
<strong>Didn't Apple say that they wouldn't break even for awhile? Later than the holidays?
At least Apple had a good number of stores open for the holiday sales.
I also heard that Apple is rather tight when it comes to salaries. I hope they don't become like CompUSA where the only people who bother looking for the job are terribly underqualified.</strong><hr></blockquote>
<strong>Eugene - your newness argument doesn't work, that would be to claim that stores don't increase their market penetration over time ... if so, I can't see how anyone succeeds.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Eh, of course the newness argument works. Stoes like this draw people like me initially, but then I have little reason to go back. I bought Acrobat, BBEdit, Drive 10, CD-Rs and other things fromt he Apple Store in Palo Alto, but over time, the draw will go away.
What kind of penetration are yout alking about any way? Word of mouth? That has probably already peaked. If you mean penetration in the form of marketable products, then that's pretty risky. Apple banked on the Cube and lost, for example.
New question then...When will the Apple Stores be profitable?
some stores are sure to show some profit in the year 2002, me thinks. It's a good idea overall those Apple Stores. Apple needs to be out there and show what it's got. However, a bit of advertising wouldn't hurt.
You guys are too much. A store paying their employees too much? I've heard this kind of stuff from banks who are making billions of dollars a year, who are letting go thousands of people and at the same time arguing the ones they have are paid "too much". Welcome to the new feudalism. Given that the average age of this board is about 12 I don't really expect anyine to understand the implications of what that kind of statement means. But here's what you have to do to make it. You have to know what your expenses are, You have to know what your expected profit margin is. You have to look at the amount each person is selling. Given the number of emplyees you have you can then determine who is pulling their weight by looking at how much each person has to sell to cover their share of the expenses. It's not rocket science. Now, any of you guys done your homework on this, or are we just spouting hot air? You speak out of both sides of your mouth, One side says " we don't want comp usa type idiots". The other side says" we don't want to pay for people who know about macs". Go home and get ready for your next republican convention,
All retail sales in all markets [volume and net profit] are down over xmas, normally a peak.
This quarter should have been high for everyone, it wasn't therefore it makes sense that the strong finish Apple planned on did not happen.
Next, you ever been to a shoe store?
How long you where a pair of shoes, a year or two? Me I tend to get at least that long out of a good pair, now given I own more than one pair, but I also own more than one computer, and the price difference offsets me buying more shoes than computers in this analogy.
Shoe stores can be compared to Apple retail pretty easy, when you first need a pair of shoes you go, [when the Apple store is new and you need a computer you go] but then, you have shoes, why go back?
But obviously over time people do, because the shoe store sticks around.
You make this same claim with everything from Best Buy to Sears, and to some extent it is still true. If the only thing that brings people into a retail store or any kind is it being new than none of them would exist for more than 2-3 years ... but we all know they do.
Therefore it is clear that market penetration does increase [if sales were always lower than the initial year what company would keep the store around?] because sales do increase over time in the retail market.
That "I am sure it has peaked" word of mouth argument is BS, do tell how you are so sure that everyone who will ever be inclined to go to an Apple store has already - that is more than a faulty claim.
That would be like saying I am sure everyone who would ever buy a Mac already has one, which is just as false.
[quote]Let's just say my mother is an assistant principal (pretty good pay) and she considered being an apple store manager and didn't have to fear much of a pay cut<hr></blockquote>
IMO teachers and school staff are undervalued in North America; seldom are those who work in education properly compensated. A store manager who makes as much as an assistant principal doesn't necessarily mean that he/she is overpaid. Yes, these are subjective judgements, general statements. That's why I'm curious as to what the actual numbers are, rather than "too much" or "as good as..."
Anyone know? Wonder if Apple Store employees sign NDAs on the subject...
[quote]New question then...When will the Apple Stores be profitable?<hr></blockquote>
Who knows. But hit desktops and a healthier retail sector would go a long way towards putting the stores on steady ground.
And again, I think the stores are well worth keeping even if they generate a small loss. Apple is trying to establish a top-notch environment and experience not found elsewhere - why wouldn't the expense involved be higher as well?
They've got what? 25ish stores in the whole USA. That's as slow and steady as a national retail roll-out can get. For an example of Bad retail roll-out, just look at Chapters (Canadian Barnes and Noble wannabe) They tried to open 75 stores in Canada! Talk about dellusional, 75 big book retail outlets in a market of 32 million! They sold like crazy, and scared-off/bankrupted some small format stores in the process, but they didn't profit a dime. In the end Indigo (another Canadian Barnes and Noble wannabe, bought them out) and lucky they did, cause the picture wasn't good.
If they're at a small loss for 25 stores just opened this year, in a market of nearly 300 million, they're doing pretty good. Another facet of he Chapters collapse was their carpet bomb approach to locations. They opened stores seemingly down the street from each other, in an attempt to keep Indigo out of key areas. Needless doubling of expenses. I can think of at least three Toronto locations better served by one large format store, and perhaps, maybe, one small format store. Three times the staff and three time the rent for what? Apple is doing quite well to avoid this problem.
I realize employee pay-checks can get too high, but I think it'll serve them well to pay a better than average wage. Customer service depends on it. Maybe I'm not the best example, but I don't remember ever giving my best effort for a wage/experience that I can get anywhere. My attitude throughout high-school (hell even now) was pretty much, "I do what I want and if you don't like it you can fire me. I'm not getting anything better than I'd get from every other McJob in this mall." You can't hire people who care about a job without giving them a wage they can care about. Well, you can hire kids, but they don't give a damn. Or, there's always interns, but that's another issue entirely.
After one year, over 25 stores, with the cost of opening/furnishing/staffing, you can pretty much count a small loss as a very successful year. Many retailers do a lot worse.
And again, I think the stores are well worth keeping even if they generate a small loss. Apple is trying to establish a top-notch environment and experience not found elsewhere - why wouldn't the expense involved be higher as well?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Of course some companies can afford to lose money in some places and gain in others, but when Apple tends to make money on its portfolio rather than its own products, you should be worried. And when a store that can clearly be profitable is not profitable, you should be worried about that too. I don't think investors want to invest in a company that has a continually unprofitable retail strategy. I don't think investors have as much faith in Apple as the typical Mac user.
Most investors right now have no faith in anything but the short term, hence the high levels of trading and low stock prices, some one whispers a rumor and everyone dumps that is the price of having too many consumers in the stock market acting as consumers instead of investors.
Apple is actually a great place to invest, you know that when the chips are down the come out with something great, has always been that way.
Course I am bias, I am an investor and a Mac user.
But you over stretch your bounds with "continually unprofitable" as it has only been nine months since the first store opened.
Come back in 18 months and complain and then people will be more willing to listen, after the stores have been open for two years if the losses are more than slight you would have a good point.
OK, so I am insane, thanks for the name calling, but that aside want to tell me how it is that you are:
Sure the word of mouth has hit its peak.
and
Sure that not being profitable in the first year is bad. [it is generally common among retail chains]
and, lastly
Sure that market penetration does not increase over time. [this one doesn't make sense, how does retail chains increase customer base if more people do not become interested over time? and do note that for many "interested" is simply that they discover the store for the first time]
I am sure a sane person such as yourself can answer those simple questions.
[quote]IMO teachers and school staff are undervalued in North America; seldom are those who work in education properly compensated. A store manager who makes as much as an assistant principal doesn't necessarily mean that he/she is overpaid. Yes, these are subjective judgements, general statements. That's why I'm curious as to what the actual numbers are, rather than "too much" or "as good as..."
Anyone know? Wonder if Apple Store employees sign NDAs on the subject... <hr></blockquote>
alright. mom makes around $80,000 before taxes or whatever other stuff.
I seriously doubt that employee paychecks put the Apple Stores in the Red. That's just silly -- your overhead would have to be ludicrous. the leases for the store spaces alone probably cost more than the employees.
Comments
This isn't about being stingy or anything. Compare any of the major indices right now vs the days before Sept. 11. The 'economic' disaster was short lived.
On Sept 1, for example, the DJIA was lower than it is right now. The NASDAQ was even lower, relatively. Clearly, the tech market hasn't been hurt too much more by 9/11...not like the airline industry, not like tourism in general. The tech market was already catatonic...9/11 was like beating a dead horse.
What does this have to do with politics?
Ouch.
<strong>
Let's just say my mother is an assistant principal (pretty good pay) and she considered being an apple store manager and didn't have to fear much of a pay cut</strong><hr></blockquote>
Your family must be Apple family #1 Applenut
No workers should be keept at bay. Make them struggle. Don't spoil them for gods sake. They may even start to like their job...
<strong>hmmm... Let's start critizising this company for paying their staff too much!!! Yes, that's such a bad way of doing business. There must be something wrong with this company. They could end up with only high quality, competent and service minded emplyoes. The horror of that...
No workers should be keept at bay. Make them struggle. Don't spoil them for gods sake. They may even start to like their job...
obviously works at an Apple Store
<strong>Didn't Apple say that they wouldn't break even for awhile? Later than the holidays?
At least Apple had a good number of stores open for the holiday sales.
I also heard that Apple is rather tight when it comes to salaries. I hope they don't become like CompUSA where the only people who bother looking for the job are terribly underqualified.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Apple pays its top execs way too much.
<strong>Eugene - your newness argument doesn't work, that would be to claim that stores don't increase their market penetration over time ... if so, I can't see how anyone succeeds.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Eh, of course the newness argument works. Stoes like this draw people like me initially, but then I have little reason to go back. I bought Acrobat, BBEdit, Drive 10, CD-Rs and other things fromt he Apple Store in Palo Alto, but over time, the draw will go away.
What kind of penetration are yout alking about any way? Word of mouth? That has probably already peaked. If you mean penetration in the form of marketable products, then that's pretty risky. Apple banked on the Cube and lost, for example.
New question then...When will the Apple Stores be profitable?
All retail sales in all markets [volume and net profit] are down over xmas, normally a peak.
This quarter should have been high for everyone, it wasn't therefore it makes sense that the strong finish Apple planned on did not happen.
Next, you ever been to a shoe store?
How long you where a pair of shoes, a year or two? Me I tend to get at least that long out of a good pair, now given I own more than one pair, but I also own more than one computer, and the price difference offsets me buying more shoes than computers in this analogy.
Shoe stores can be compared to Apple retail pretty easy, when you first need a pair of shoes you go, [when the Apple store is new and you need a computer you go] but then, you have shoes, why go back?
But obviously over time people do, because the shoe store sticks around.
You make this same claim with everything from Best Buy to Sears, and to some extent it is still true. If the only thing that brings people into a retail store or any kind is it being new than none of them would exist for more than 2-3 years ... but we all know they do.
Therefore it is clear that market penetration does increase [if sales were always lower than the initial year what company would keep the store around?] because sales do increase over time in the retail market.
That "I am sure it has peaked" word of mouth argument is BS, do tell how you are so sure that everyone who will ever be inclined to go to an Apple store has already - that is more than a faulty claim.
That would be like saying I am sure everyone who would ever buy a Mac already has one, which is just as false.
IMO teachers and school staff are undervalued in North America; seldom are those who work in education properly compensated. A store manager who makes as much as an assistant principal doesn't necessarily mean that he/she is overpaid. Yes, these are subjective judgements, general statements. That's why I'm curious as to what the actual numbers are, rather than "too much" or "as good as..."
Anyone know? Wonder if Apple Store employees sign NDAs on the subject...
[quote]New question then...When will the Apple Stores be profitable?<hr></blockquote>
Who knows. But hit desktops and a healthier retail sector would go a long way towards putting the stores on steady ground.
And again, I think the stores are well worth keeping even if they generate a small loss. Apple is trying to establish a top-notch environment and experience not found elsewhere - why wouldn't the expense involved be higher as well?
Cheers,
Mark.
[ 12-30-2001: Message edited by: Mark ]</p>
They've got what? 25ish stores in the whole USA. That's as slow and steady as a national retail roll-out can get. For an example of Bad retail roll-out, just look at Chapters (Canadian Barnes and Noble wannabe) They tried to open 75 stores in Canada! Talk about dellusional, 75 big book retail outlets in a market of 32 million! They sold like crazy, and scared-off/bankrupted some small format stores in the process, but they didn't profit a dime. In the end Indigo (another Canadian Barnes and Noble wannabe, bought them out) and lucky they did, cause the picture wasn't good.
If they're at a small loss for 25 stores just opened this year, in a market of nearly 300 million, they're doing pretty good. Another facet of he Chapters collapse was their carpet bomb approach to locations. They opened stores seemingly down the street from each other, in an attempt to keep Indigo out of key areas. Needless doubling of expenses. I can think of at least three Toronto locations better served by one large format store, and perhaps, maybe, one small format store. Three times the staff and three time the rent for what? Apple is doing quite well to avoid this problem.
I realize employee pay-checks can get too high, but I think it'll serve them well to pay a better than average wage. Customer service depends on it. Maybe I'm not the best example, but I don't remember ever giving my best effort for a wage/experience that I can get anywhere. My attitude throughout high-school (hell even now) was pretty much, "I do what I want and if you don't like it you can fire me. I'm not getting anything better than I'd get from every other McJob in this mall." You can't hire people who care about a job without giving them a wage they can care about. Well, you can hire kids, but they don't give a damn. Or, there's always interns, but that's another issue entirely.
After one year, over 25 stores, with the cost of opening/furnishing/staffing, you can pretty much count a small loss as a very successful year. Many retailers do a lot worse.
<strong>
And again, I think the stores are well worth keeping even if they generate a small loss. Apple is trying to establish a top-notch environment and experience not found elsewhere - why wouldn't the expense involved be higher as well?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Of course some companies can afford to lose money in some places and gain in others, but when Apple tends to make money on its portfolio rather than its own products, you should be worried. And when a store that can clearly be profitable is not profitable, you should be worried about that too. I don't think investors want to invest in a company that has a continually unprofitable retail strategy. I don't think investors have as much faith in Apple as the typical Mac user.
Apple is actually a great place to invest, you know that when the chips are down the come out with something great, has always been that way.
Course I am bias, I am an investor and a Mac user.
But you over stretch your bounds with "continually unprofitable" as it has only been nine months since the first store opened.
Come back in 18 months and complain and then people will be more willing to listen, after the stores have been open for two years if the losses are more than slight you would have a good point.
Sure the word of mouth has hit its peak.
and
Sure that not being profitable in the first year is bad. [it is generally common among retail chains]
and, lastly
Sure that market penetration does not increase over time. [this one doesn't make sense, how does retail chains increase customer base if more people do not become interested over time? and do note that for many "interested" is simply that they discover the store for the first time]
I am sure a sane person such as yourself can answer those simple questions.
Anyone know? Wonder if Apple Store employees sign NDAs on the subject... <hr></blockquote>
alright. mom makes around $80,000 before taxes or whatever other stuff.
that give you a better idea?
BTW, they do sign NDA for their salaries