NFC and a large screen are the only two things that can keep me in the iPhone ecosystem. Anyway, NFC is good in a phone, but it will be amazing in a watch. You will only have to swipe you watch and then press you fingerprint on the screen to confirm and that's it, you've paid! Practically you don't have to take out anything from your pocket, you always have your wallet in your hand. And even if someone steals your watch, they don't have your fingerprints. iWatch + NFC is the best way to go.
Especially if your watch could also recharge your Tesla and prevent earthquakes. It's weird nobody thought of this yet.
(Uh. You cannot make a watch do that within the next few years. Also, why swipe, when you could do the same with just the fingerprint? Just so to make NFC not useless? )
No, entering an establishment and placing an undetectable device on another device without being detected by cameras or staff or getting it detected later is far more difficult than being far outside a building in car or some place else with no cameras or people in view to steal BT or WiFI data over from dozens to thousands of feet away.
Who said thieves would need to break into a store to install anything? Who used to steal CC data? The waiter at the restaurant or guy pumping your gas by using a skimmer to swipe your card. In other words, an inside employee. Now organized crime has moved to high-tech methods, but they still rely on an "inside person". How do you think they managed to remove a POS terminal from a store, modify the software, and re-install it without being detected? They certainly didn't do it while nobody was looking and they didn't break into a store and get it replaced before the alarm went off. They had an employee do it for them. Just like it's been done since credit card fraud existed.
Only now it's even easier for the employee to do as all that's required is to install a tiny receiver in close proximity to the terminal to record EVERY transaction made.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
PS: If you don't think short range is inherently more secure than long range then tell me why you have given your CC with all its data to people working at a retail outlet but haven't posted your CC data on a site like AI. If you think the risk is identical then go ahead and post your CC hear. You won't because that would be risky, just like thinking WiFi is inherently as secure as NFC.
I don't give my card to retailers. All I ever do is either swipe/insert my own card, or tap my card (where it's accepted). I can't remember the last time I ever handed over my credit card to an employee. That is a ridiculous analogy.
A better analogy is why isn't online shopping a big risk since my credit card data travels through who knows how many routers, switches and ISP's before getting to its final destination. Fact is, I shop online regularly and haven't had a fraud related event yet. I have, however, had my card skimmed at a restaurant before.
And I see you haven't responded to my other point. An NFC receiver would ONLY capture actual transactions each time a person "taps". Someone listening to BT, WiFi or even LTE would have reams of data to go through - some of it containing transactions and the rest containing who knows what.
When people are trying to decrypt data, the number one thing they look for are patterns in the data. If you have 100 financial transactions, then you are dealing with 100 sets of data that contain numerous repeat data (the merchant ID or today's date or bank information like account number of merchant or cardholder bank). Then you have similar data (like a time stamp which varies slightly). This makes it much easier to get access to the actual data when you're attempting to decrypt it.
If crooks are recording all the data over WiFI, BT or LTE, then they have all sorts of "noise" to deal with (other data that may or may not be transaction related). This makes the job much more difficult.
Ask any "hacker" what they'd rather work with - a set of 100 known financial transactions, or 100 financial transactions interspersed with numerous other unrelated data they have to sift through.
You've never paid with a card at a restaurant without them bringing the CC reader out to you on a 100 foot cord or you going into the back to swipe it yourself? I guess at McDonald's you get to swipe it yourself (if you're inside) but at decent restaurants that simply doesn't happen. They usually bring you a leather bound check holder that has a place for your card. They take it in back and bring it back a couple minutes later with a receipt and pen. You can't tell me that's not standard practice!
Why are smart cards better? Good question, but casual fraud seems to be very limited in Europe who use smart cards and DOD has found them to enhance identity assurance. Certainly not a panacea, but a huge step forward for the US to at least come to parity with the rest of the world, and as such more likely to happen than NFC.
Japan has adopted NFC very successfully so it is doable and at least for Japanese is successful. I am vaguely aware of Japanese situation and two comments that might throw light on relevance to the discussion. The first is the the enormous popularity and use of public transportation made NFC are solution to an important job. This suggests that a niche albeit important in Japan dipped the balance for adoption. However, this may be very unique to Japan and I am unconvinced this is a got to have tech for cell phones given the enormous popularity of non-NFC equipped iPhones. In fact, prob the country most enthusiastic about the iPhone.
I hope there is a more extensive review in Appleinsider or elsewhere on NFC, I still remain skeptical it is inherently going to be the next big, although regulatory direction by the Chinese government consistent with their unique LTE may make it a real option for Apple.
Sort of like they moved on (passing it on the left) from BlueRay.
Steve Jobs liked to think of himself of skating to where the puck will be.
Physical media sales, including BlueRay, are declining already. (Look at Sony's latest earnings)
Where the puck will be there is no BlueRay.
And no NFC.
That's perfectly fine because we have a statement stating why Apple isn't going to include it which shows a clear indication they analyzed it and came to a conclusion. We have ZERO evidence that Apple has done so with NFC. You might as well say Apple has moved on from H.265 or 802.11ac in the iPhone since it's been available and yet hasn't been included.
So you would say that Apple moved from including nuclear power or fairy dust in their products because there is no proof that they haven't tested it? That's just ridiculous! Based on the available information there is no proof that Apple had any working NFC prototypes on the ready so we can't say that they moved from it just as we can't say they moved on any other tech. We can speculate as to the likelihood of what techs they have probably tested but we can't be sure, just as we can't be sure they have moved on as opposed to still perfecting.
Of course there's no working proof that Apple has been working on contactless NFC payments. Like I wrote before, I did not say that Apple has moved on in this particular case.
Periodically, prototype units with unreleased features do show up on the used equipment marketplace (like the MacBook with a cellular radio and retractable antenna). Only then can we confirm that a specific feature has been passed over. For sure, hundreds of other potential features have been passed over.
The AppleInsider forum is a suitable place for that type of discussion.
That said, it is likely that Apple has tested contactless NFC payment as the technology has been around for quite a while and has been adopted with varying levels of consumer interest, just as Apple has likely tested a wide variety of screen sizes for their handsets and tablets.
Of course there's no working proof that Apple has been working on contactless NFC payments. Like I wrote before, I did not say that Apple has moved on in this particular case.
Periodically, prototype units with unreleased features do show up on the used equipment marketplace (like the MacBook with a cellular radio and retractable antenna). Only then can we confirm that a specific feature has been passed over. For sure, hundreds of other potential features have been passed over.
The AppleInsider forum is a suitable place for that type of discussion.
That said, it is likely that Apple has tested contactless NFC payment as the technology has been around for quite a while and has been adopted with varying levels of consumer interest, just as Apple has likely tested a wide variety of screen sizes for their handsets and tablets.
And this lack of knowledge of Apple having working products using NFC in a lab to the lack of the knowledge that they scrapped the projects are why we can't say they have moved on from it. If we want to speculate we need to make comments that are stated in a less absolute way or provide proof that backs up our absolute statements.
@electrotech Apple has always been good at taking existing technologies and making them better. They've done over and over again. If they decide to implement NFC why wouldn't they do the same with it? Make it actually NOT hurt.
To others, if Apple decides to implement NFC why would they need to abandon their other payment technologies? Why can't they let each grow side by side? It sounds like many countries outside the US are already implementing NFC so why shouldn't Apple grab that market.
How about the existing hundreds of millions of iPhone users? I don't think Apple will like to alienate these users or force them to upgrade the phone. Incorporating NFC Apple helps billions of Android users and hurt its own base.
And they didn't 'alienate' them with Siri, lighting connector, and Touch ID?
I don't give my card to retailers. All I ever do is either swipe/insert my own card, or tap my card (where it's accepted). I can't remember the last time I ever handed over my credit card to an employee. That is a ridiculous analogy.
We must not go to the same restaurants. Practically every restaurant I go to, the "EMPLOYEE" lays down and bill in CC book, where I then place my credit card into it. They come pick it up and disappear again for a moment. Magically they come back with two more slips of paper for me to fill out. Yep, almost every restaurant does it this way.
You've never paid with a card at a restaurant without them bringing the CC reader out to you on a 100 foot cord or you going into the back to swipe it yourself? I guess at McDonald's you get to swipe it yourself (if you're inside) but at decent restaurants that simply doesn't happen. They usually bring you a leather bound check holder that has a place for your card. They take it in back and bring it back a couple minutes later with a receipt and pen. You can't tell me that's not standard practice!
Just saw that you said basically the same thing. This is exactly how it happens for me several times a week.
No Morgan Stanley, Apple will not use NFC, because NFC is crap technology. Perhaps you, Morgan Stanley, should catch up with the modern world and understand WHY RFC is crap technology.
Whatever mobile payment solution Apple chooses, I would like to see functionality similar to the way Disney's magic bands work. Visited Disney World a few months ago and was blown away by how they made use of NFC chips. The magic bands allowed electronic payments, park entry, restaurant reservations and order ID, as well as hotel room access. I'm sure these things can be done a number of ways, but Disney uses NFC. The technology is Amazing! Seriously felt like it connected me to everything.
Prior to that trip, I thought an iWatch was a ridiculous idea. Couldn't think of a single use for it. But if Apple could couple their phones/devices with that kind of technology, I think it would be a HUGE game-changer. Seriously, if could lay the groundwork for a world without wallets, keys, ID's.
I am really hoping that apple thinks "bigger" than just mobile payment solutions. NFC/iBeacons/whatever could be a whole new way of life...
Apple tests many concepts in their labs, not all make it to the final product.
So yes, they can move on from a technology or concept, even if the general public is not aware of it. Apple makes very deliberate decisions in choosing what and what not to include in their products and services.
So you would say that Apple moved from including nuclear power or fairy dust in their products because there is no proof that they haven't tested it? That's just ridiculous! Based on the available information there is no proof that Apple had any working NFC prototypes on the ready so we can't say that they moved from it just as we can't say they moved on any other tech. We can speculate as to the likelihood of what techs they have probably tested but we can't be sure, just as we can't be sure they have moved on as opposed to still perfecting.
Flawed reasoning. We'll never have any proof that Apple had a working NFC prototype if they don't decide to use it. However, as NFC has been around for years, it is reasonable to assume that Apple will have tested it in some capacity. If Apple introduce a mobile payment system without NFC, then it will be right to say that they have moved on from NFC.
Comments
NFC and a large screen are the only two things that can keep me in the iPhone ecosystem. Anyway, NFC is good in a phone, but it will be amazing in a watch. You will only have to swipe you watch and then press you fingerprint on the screen to confirm and that's it, you've paid! Practically you don't have to take out anything from your pocket, you always have your wallet in your hand. And even if someone steals your watch, they don't have your fingerprints. iWatch + NFC is the best way to go.
Especially if your watch could also recharge your Tesla and prevent earthquakes. It's weird nobody thought of this yet.
(Uh. You cannot make a watch do that within the next few years. Also, why swipe, when you could do the same with just the fingerprint? Just so to make NFC not useless? )
No, entering an establishment and placing an undetectable device on another device without being detected by cameras or staff or getting it detected later is far more difficult than being far outside a building in car or some place else with no cameras or people in view to steal BT or WiFI data over from dozens to thousands of feet away.
Who said thieves would need to break into a store to install anything? Who used to steal CC data? The waiter at the restaurant or guy pumping your gas by using a skimmer to swipe your card. In other words, an inside employee. Now organized crime has moved to high-tech methods, but they still rely on an "inside person". How do you think they managed to remove a POS terminal from a store, modify the software, and re-install it without being detected? They certainly didn't do it while nobody was looking and they didn't break into a store and get it replaced before the alarm went off. They had an employee do it for them. Just like it's been done since credit card fraud existed.
Only now it's even easier for the employee to do as all that's required is to install a tiny receiver in close proximity to the terminal to record EVERY transaction made.
Quote:
PS: If you don't think short range is inherently more secure than long range then tell me why you have given your CC with all its data to people working at a retail outlet but haven't posted your CC data on a site like AI. If you think the risk is identical then go ahead and post your CC hear. You won't because that would be risky, just like thinking WiFi is inherently as secure as NFC.
You've never paid with a card at a restaurant without them bringing the CC reader out to you on a 100 foot cord or you going into the back to swipe it yourself? I guess at McDonald's you get to swipe it yourself (if you're inside) but at decent restaurants that simply doesn't happen. They usually bring you a leather bound check holder that has a place for your card. They take it in back and bring it back a couple minutes later with a receipt and pen. You can't tell me that's not standard practice!
Why are smart cards better? Good question, but casual fraud seems to be very limited in Europe who use smart cards and DOD has found them to enhance identity assurance. Certainly not a panacea, but a huge step forward for the US to at least come to parity with the rest of the world, and as such more likely to happen than NFC.
Japan has adopted NFC very successfully so it is doable and at least for Japanese is successful. I am vaguely aware of Japanese situation and two comments that might throw light on relevance to the discussion. The first is the the enormous popularity and use of public transportation made NFC are solution to an important job. This suggests that a niche albeit important in Japan dipped the balance for adoption. However, this may be very unique to Japan and I am unconvinced this is a got to have tech for cell phones given the enormous popularity of non-NFC equipped iPhones. In fact, prob the country most enthusiastic about the iPhone.
I hope there is a more extensive review in Appleinsider or elsewhere on NFC, I still remain skeptical it is inherently going to be the next big, although regulatory direction by the Chinese government consistent with their unique LTE may make it a real option for Apple.
How can Apple have moved on from something they've never included?
Sort of like they moved on (passing it on the left) from BlueRay.
Steve Jobs liked to think of himself of skating to where the puck will be.
Physical media sales, including BlueRay, are declining already. (Look at Sony's latest earnings)
Where the puck will be there is no BlueRay.
And no NFC.
Did I mention Adobe Flash?
That's perfectly fine because we have a statement stating why Apple isn't going to include it which shows a clear indication they analyzed it and came to a conclusion. We have ZERO evidence that Apple has done so with NFC. You might as well say Apple has moved on from H.265 or 802.11ac in the iPhone since it's been available and yet hasn't been included.
So you would say that Apple moved from including nuclear power or fairy dust in their products because there is no proof that they haven't tested it? That's just ridiculous! Based on the available information there is no proof that Apple had any working NFC prototypes on the ready so we can't say that they moved from it just as we can't say they moved on any other tech. We can speculate as to the likelihood of what techs they have probably tested but we can't be sure, just as we can't be sure they have moved on as opposed to still perfecting.
Of course there's no working proof that Apple has been working on contactless NFC payments. Like I wrote before, I did not say that Apple has moved on in this particular case.
Periodically, prototype units with unreleased features do show up on the used equipment marketplace (like the MacBook with a cellular radio and retractable antenna). Only then can we confirm that a specific feature has been passed over. For sure, hundreds of other potential features have been passed over.
The AppleInsider forum is a suitable place for that type of discussion.
That said, it is likely that Apple has tested contactless NFC payment as the technology has been around for quite a while and has been adopted with varying levels of consumer interest, just as Apple has likely tested a wide variety of screen sizes for their handsets and tablets.
And this lack of knowledge of Apple having working products using NFC in a lab to the lack of the knowledge that they scrapped the projects are why we can't say they have moved on from it. If we want to speculate we need to make comments that are stated in a less absolute way or provide proof that backs up our absolute statements.
Apple has always been good at taking existing technologies and making them better. They've done over and over again. If they decide to implement NFC why wouldn't they do the same with it? Make it actually NOT hurt.
To others, if Apple decides to implement NFC why would they need to abandon their other payment technologies? Why can't they let each grow side by side? It sounds like many countries outside the US are already implementing NFC so why shouldn't Apple grab that market.
And they didn't 'alienate' them with Siri, lighting connector, and Touch ID?
I don't give my card to retailers. All I ever do is either swipe/insert my own card, or tap my card (where it's accepted). I can't remember the last time I ever handed over my credit card to an employee. That is a ridiculous analogy.
We must not go to the same restaurants. Practically every restaurant I go to, the "EMPLOYEE" lays down and bill in CC book, where I then place my credit card into it. They come pick it up and disappear again for a moment. Magically they come back with two more slips of paper for me to fill out. Yep, almost every restaurant does it this way.
So, it's NOT "a ridiculous analogy".
You've never paid with a card at a restaurant without them bringing the CC reader out to you on a 100 foot cord or you going into the back to swipe it yourself? I guess at McDonald's you get to swipe it yourself (if you're inside) but at decent restaurants that simply doesn't happen. They usually bring you a leather bound check holder that has a place for your card. They take it in back and bring it back a couple minutes later with a receipt and pen. You can't tell me that's not standard practice!
Just saw that you said basically the same thing. This is exactly how it happens for me several times a week.
iBeacon has nothing to do with anything. iBeacons are beacons. They aren't a payment system.
Prior to that trip, I thought an iWatch was a ridiculous idea. Couldn't think of a single use for it. But if Apple could couple their phones/devices with that kind of technology, I think it would be a HUGE game-changer. Seriously, if could lay the groundwork for a world without wallets, keys, ID's.
I am really hoping that apple thinks "bigger" than just mobile payment solutions. NFC/iBeacons/whatever could be a whole new way of life...
Great to see that apple is catching up.
Take your FUD and shove it.
No they won't. He just wants them to.
Apple tests many concepts in their labs, not all make it to the final product.
So yes, they can move on from a technology or concept, even if the general public is not aware of it. Apple makes very deliberate decisions in choosing what and what not to include in their products and services.
So you would say that Apple moved from including nuclear power or fairy dust in their products because there is no proof that they haven't tested it? That's just ridiculous! Based on the available information there is no proof that Apple had any working NFC prototypes on the ready so we can't say that they moved from it just as we can't say they moved on any other tech. We can speculate as to the likelihood of what techs they have probably tested but we can't be sure, just as we can't be sure they have moved on as opposed to still perfecting.
Flawed reasoning. We'll never have any proof that Apple had a working NFC prototype if they don't decide to use it. However, as NFC has been around for years, it is reasonable to assume that Apple will have tested it in some capacity. If Apple introduce a mobile payment system without NFC, then it will be right to say that they have moved on from NFC.