Apple denies dodging EU taxes, receiving special treatment from Irish authorities

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  • Reply 21 of 59
    taniwhataniwha Posts: 347member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by gilly33 View Post

     
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Crowley View Post



    Cry me a river and give me strength, the EU is doing none of this! If they had intimate control of the tax policies of member states that would make it an entirely different institution, and it's got nothing to do with incompetence. They aren't making up laws, they aren't crying about anything and they aren't blaming anyone; they're holding an investigation.



    But hey, companies can do no wrong and governments can do no right, right? Sheesh!




    Yeah you bet governments can do no right. All these politicians including the ones here at home mismanaging the taxpayers trust and then finding all kind of ways to whine and grab money from corporations and then do what? Mismanage it all over again. Pity the fool who thinks EU or Congress has their best interest at heart. I lost confidence in these jokers a longtime ago.

    And pity the poor fool who thinks that companies care about their customers, privacy or anything other than profits. 

  • Reply 22 of 59
    taniwhataniwha Posts: 347member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by woodbine View Post



    The thing is that all these big companies pay their VAT bills to the country of sale, so VAT is not being avoided. VAT is a far larger tax component than corporation tax, which is what is being investigated.

    An individual can lessen their personal tax bill in many ways and many people do just this. Corporations are no different, except for their size and their spread across many countries. The rules are more complex and some countries offer more favourable tax regimes. So companies take advantage of this. Same reasoning for the individual and paying income tax, if there was a rule that allowed that individual to lessen their tax burden they would be very stupid not to use that rule.

    Actually it's the end-customers who pay VAT. The companies just collect it.

  • Reply 23 of 59
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    And you as a citizen, I'm sure, do your best to pay as little tax as possible. The tax man always was, is, and always will be the opponent. Are you willing to pay more taxes than the tax code, the way it is written, requires?
    No, actually I don't do my best to pay as little tax as possible. I pay income tax on my income, capital gains tax on money I make from selling shares, VAT on purchases, and council tax to my local authority. I pay these at the appropriate rate and don't try to wriggle my way out of any of them by putting up any false fronts, like setting my employment up as a company or any such scheme. I think that's dishonest.

    I don't pay more tax than I'm asked to, but I don't view the tax man as the opponent, I'm an honest citizen and a member of a society, not a game player.

    And I'm doing alright for myself and I don't feel like a schmuck.

    Actually on the few occasions I've had to contact the Inland Revenue I've found them to be very helpful and patient.
  • Reply 24 of 59
    dasanman69dasanman69 Posts: 13,002member
    hydrogen wrote: »

    It's all right. You need to be non-american to understand what is a private joke, in this context ...

    Ahh, private joke, public forum. Got it
  • Reply 25 of 59
    elijahgelijahg Posts: 2,781member
    crowley wrote: »
    Apple are dodging taxes by structuring their company in a way that is viewing the tax authority as an opponent, and which doesn't represent true economic activity - their headquarters isn't really in Ireland, yet all their international profits are lodged there, and their European iTunes sales don't really occur in Luxembourg, but they are reported there.

    Yep, exactly how the EU intended, so their own Eurocrats can pay as little tax as possible. The EU guidance states companies need only have one base in Europe and operate from there. Then when the companies do just that, the EU moans that they aren't paying enough tax. They set the rules and complain when companies follow them.

    The EC is deeply unpopular right now, and this is just an attempt to try to make themselves seem less useless and inept, when infact it just reinforces that they don't have a clue.

    If companies started paying more tax than was due, their shareholders would have some serious concerns with the leadership. Maybe you should start donating more of your income to the government, I'm sure they'd be pleased. Oh but hold on, overpaid taxes are repaid, so even if Apple did pay more than they owed; it would get repaid.
    steven n. wrote: »
    Of course the EU is crying over this trying to put the blame of their utter incompetence on the evil corporations. So they hold a public inquiry to show the "poor and down-trodden" they are trying to do good by their constituents. "See. It's not our incompetence that keeps the coffers dry, it is the evil companies not being moral"

    The US did the same thing about 1-2 years back.

    If the EU does not like how companies are using the laws THEY WROTE, change them. Grow a pair and stop crying his it's the evil corporations fault, accept blame and fix their messed up laws.
    Exactly. It's all so the lawmakers can avoid tax themselves. It's the same in member states just as much as it is within the EC.
    dasanman69 wrote: »
    Ahh, private joke, public forum. Got it

    The British believe the one-law-fits-all approach doesn't work, and the OP was attempting to make a joke that Britain won't agree to more regulation. Which it won't.
  • Reply 26 of 59
    richlorichlo Posts: 46member

    Taxes are something Americans just dont like. One of the chief reasons this country was formed.

  • Reply 27 of 59
    steven n.steven n. Posts: 1,229member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Crowley View Post



    I don't pay more tax than I'm asked to, but I don't view the tax man as the opponent, I'm an honest citizen and a member of a society, not a game player.

     

    And neither are these companies.

  • Reply 28 of 59
    mdriftmeyermdriftmeyer Posts: 7,503member
    All wealthy corporates lobby and thus influence Washington DC to craft changes in Tax Codes to avoid paying traditional tax rates you would expect any corporation to pay.

    In short, it's legalized bribery, all thanks to an ancient US Supreme Court ruling about People and Personhood bs.

    Strip away those loop-holes and then let me see whether or not Apple and everyone else increases their ``lobbying arms'' to retwist and get those real entitlements back that they worked so hard to carve out just for them.

    Sorry, but as an alum I call bs on the notion Apple is paying every tax they `owe' when it really should be, `we pay what the current tax structure allows us to pay.'

    Tim should defer this BS to the CFO. Let him sweat.

    Every corporation was lobbying the House Republicans for a $300 Billion Debt expansion for corporate tax subsidies THEY DON'T DESERVE just two weeks ago.

    Don't effin' tell me Apple would not apply for that debt increase if the CFO discovered it could give Apple a refund.

    If Steve were alive today I would have asked him, ``Why the **** do we need $50 million in local tax fees waved when we're spending $5 Billion+ on the new campus? And don't blow smoke up my ass that we spend $5 billion should we not get something back.''
  • Reply 29 of 59
    jungmarkjungmark Posts: 6,926member
    crowley wrote: »
    I wish they wouldn't make carefully phrased, weaselly comments like this, it just makes then seem sleazy.

    Of course they're dodging taxes, using legal means.
    Of course they are exploiting conditions in Ireland that allow me to pay minimal tax due to the "controlling domicile" rule, even if other companies can also exploit that loophole.
    And of course they can claim to not fund their domestic profits into tax havens, they do that to their much larger international profits.

    The fact is that all this is legal, so the attempt to deflect just makes it look more like they have something to hide, whether they do or don't.

    Please, so you don't take deductions on your taxes or buy products where they tax you less than where you live?

    The EU and the countries write the laws. If they don't like 'em, change 'em.
  • Reply 30 of 59
    jungmarkjungmark Posts: 6,926member

    Sorry, but as an alum I call bs on the notion Apple is paying every tax they `owe' when it really should be, `we pay what the current tax structure allows us to pay.'

    Apple owes what the laws dictate. They pay what they owe. No wiggle room for interpretation.
  • Reply 31 of 59
    MacProMacPro Posts: 19,778member
    jungmark wrote: »
    Apple owes what the laws dictate. They pay what they owe. No wiggle room for interpretation.

    Agreed. Tim is way too smart to allow anything that isn't 100% above board in Apple's accounting. The people suggesting otherwise need their heads examining.
  • Reply 32 of 59
    ipenipen Posts: 410member

    Nothing special.  Just typical tax evasion vs tax avoidance.  I'm sure Apple didn't violate any tax laws like TC said.

  • Reply 33 of 59
    chris_cachris_ca Posts: 2,543member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post





    Agreed. Tim is way too smart to allow anything that isn't 100% above board in Apple's accounting. The people suggesting otherwise need their heads examining.

    He should. He signs off on SEC filings attesting to their accuracy.

    -> http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/320193/000119312513416534/d590790dex321.htm

    "I, Timothy D. Cook, certify, as of the dates hereof, pursuant to 18 U.S.C. Section 1350, as adopted pursuant to Section 906 of the Sarbanes-Oxley Act of 2002, that the Annual Report of Apple Inc. on Form 10-K for the fiscal year ended September 28, 2013 fully complies with the requirements of Section 13(a) or 15(d) of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934 and that information contained in such Form 10-K fairly presents in all material respects the financial condition and results of operations of Apple Inc. at the dates and for the periods indicated.

  • Reply 34 of 59
    dickprinterdickprinter Posts: 1,060member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Crowley View Post





    No, actually I don't do my best to pay as little tax as possible. I pay income tax on my income, capital gains tax on money I make from selling shares, VAT on purchases, and council tax to my local authority. I pay these at the appropriate rate and don't try to wriggle my way out of any of them by putting up any false fronts, like setting my employment up as a company or any such scheme. I think that's dishonest.



    I don't pay more tax than I'm asked to, but I don't view the tax man as the opponent, I'm an honest citizen and a member of a society, not a game player.



    And I'm doing alright for myself and I don't feel like a schmuck.



    Actually on the few occasions I've had to contact the Inland Revenue I've found them to be very helpful and patient.

    That's quite honorable, although the taxes you describe allow little room to be dishonest or evasive. 

     

    I'm not saying to commit tax fraud or evade paying the taxes owed but if the tax code is written in a way that allows me to take 'legal' advantage of it, I'm going to exploit it. And I don't think, as a U.S. citizen, I'm in the minority.

  • Reply 35 of 59
    froodfrood Posts: 771member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ipen View Post

     

    Nothing special.  Just typical tax evasion vs tax avoidance.  I'm sure Apple didn't violate any tax laws like TC said.


     

    Spot on.  The only place you'll find anything hinting at 'tax evasion' on Apple's part is on Apple fan sites trying to rile up the fan base.

    Apple is not being accused of tax evasion.  Apple pays the majority of its taxes in a place that it does not earn the majority of its profits.

     

    The ones under the gun are the countries offering these methods.  The EU is scrutinizing those methods to determine if they are legal within the laws of the EU.  If they are found to be legal, the EU will have to decide if it wants to (or can) change them.  If they change the law, Apple will pivot to follow the law and pay whatever new method allows them to legally pay the least amount of taxes.  If the laws were found to have been broken, the respective countries may have to pay penalties and be forced into compliance with the law in future dealings.  It will likely be those countries that face the prospect of negotiating past taxes with Apple.  Apple would be in its right to 'stonewall' them and not pay, since it was those countries that applied the systems.

     

    Either way, its all good and pretty much the same issue faced recently in the US (although the US politicians were stupid enough to put on stern faces and wag their finger at Apple when the fault is their own laws).  Apple and other corporations are doing no wrong and legally avoiding taxes, but the system that allows them to do that is broken and is what needs to be fixed.

     

    While we can all disagree and debate on how much we should spend in taxes and where those resources should be focused, the bottom line is everything our governments do costs money.  That money needs to be paid from 'somewhere.'  The entities benefitting from all the systems in place are mostly private citizens and corporations.  To the extent that corporations don't contribute, private citizens will just have to pay a larger percentage of the burden.

     

    If you look at abilities to get out of paying taxes over time, its no surprise who is better at figuring out how to pay less of the share of taxes:

     

    https://static.nationalpriorities.org/images/fb101/2014/ind-corporate-income-tax.png

  • Reply 36 of 59
    mac_dog wrote: »
    i don't get anything nefarious or dodgy about apple's response at all.
    <span style="line-height:1.4em;">they're just doing a little pre-emptive pr—before the msm & trolls pick it up and make this about apple being the bad guy.</span>

    <span style="line-height:1.4em;">apple's following the law if you have problems with that, change the law.</span>

    Apple pays taxes on foreign-earned profits in foreign countries and pays taxes on USA earned profits to the USA government. What Apple, and many other multi-national corporations don't want to do is pay taxes on the same profit dollar more then once. I believe Apple would love to bring much of their foreign dollars back to the USA and use them to build out their infrastructure, thereby employing more Americans...BUT they don't want to pay double taxes and have less left to invest in the end.

    A tax holiday would be a positive thing for the U.S. economy by bringing the already-taxed foreign profits home and using it to stimulate the economy and create jobs.
  • Reply 37 of 59
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    jungmark wrote: »
    Please, so you don't take deductions on your taxes or buy products where they tax you less than where you live?
    Not intentionally I don't. I buy local and from small retailers most of the time, precisely because I think tax avoidance is sleazy.
  • Reply 38 of 59
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    steven n. wrote: »
    And neither are these companies.
    Get real, whether or not they've acted illegally (I suspect they haven't) the idea that Apple haven't gamed the system is absurd. Of course they have, and they've done it very well, and earned themselves a staggeringly low effective tax rate on internal profits.
  • Reply 39 of 59
    realisticrealistic Posts: 1,154member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Crowley View Post



    I wish they wouldn't make carefully phrased, weaselly comments like this, it just makes then seem sleazy.



    Of course they're dodging taxes, using legal means.

    Of course they are exploiting conditions in Ireland that allow me to pay minimal tax due to the "controlling domicile" rule, even if other companies can also exploit that loophole.


    And of course they can claim to not fund their domestic profits into tax havens, they do that to their much larger international profits.



    The fact is that all this is legal, so the attempt to deflect just makes it look more like they have something to hide, whether they do or don't.

    Do you even read what you write before posting? If what they are doing is legal then they aren't dodging anything.

     

    Show us proof to your baseless allegations on their international profits.

     

    You again readily admit that what they do is legal, so shut f up and crawl back under your rock.

  • Reply 40 of 59
    realisticrealistic Posts: 1,154member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Crowley View Post



    "Dodge" does not imply illegality. "Evade" is the word that implies illegality.



    Dodging, or any other synonym for avoidance is exactly what Apple is doing.

    Don't you take every legal deduction on your taxes every year? Thought so, so using your logic you are dodging taxes also.

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