ATTENTION HOME THEATRE GEEKS!
I have a few quesions for you, as I'm am beginning the process of researching how to best equip our home in the near future, given the advent of DVD's, HDTV and the like.
Here's the deal: I already have a nice audio system consisting of Rotel components and Paradigm Reference speakers. I would like to add onto that rather than starting over completely. I'm in no rush either. If it makes sense to wait a year for all the movie format issues and the like to shake out, I will.
My first question is, are the new flat, wide-screen CRT boxes worth the investment, given how expensive they are to repair (vs. say a projection system of equal size and features)?
Second question is, how does the formatting deal work when dealing with wide-screen sets and DVDs? Particularly HDTV sets that by definition cater to the 16:9 ratio? Seems there are all kinds of movie formats out there, from Letterbox wide-screen to Anamorphic wide-screen at 1.85:1, 2.35:1 and even 2.4:1. Does all this mean that basically, if I spend all that dough on an HDTV set, that it will STILL clip my DVD movies an appreciable amount?
Or is it the case that the ratio has only to do with how much empty or "black" space will appear directly above and beneath the picture - as is the case with most computer monitors? In other words, there will be no clipping, but depending on the format of the movie, more or less vertical space will be taken up by the picture on the 16:9 set?
The most important thing to me is to get a set that will allow me to maximize the viewing area in terms of viewing wide-screen DVD's. In other words, I'd rather have an HDTV-ready set that slightly alters the HDTV picture, and leaves the movies untouched, vs the other way around. I want a real home theatre experience vs a clipped movie experience, to put another way. You want to clip my prime-time shows and sports? Fine, clip away. Just don't clip my movies!
Advice? I'm looking at Toshiba's line of wide-screens btw, so any thoughts geared towards their product line would be even more useful. Sony and JVC is another possibility. Most other brands I won't even consider due to consistent quality issues.
Sound-wise was thinking of adding a Dolby DTS / Surround Pre-amp to my existing Integrated Amp (rather than get an AV receiver), since it has a lot of power, and then just getting a good center channel speaker to add to my two Paradigms...the DVD player should be relatively easy. Was thinking of the Toshiba 2300 since it has a slightly higher resolution than other sub-$300 models and has all the other features I want.
[ 01-15-2002: Message edited by: Moogs ? ]
[ 01-15-2002: Message edited by: Moogs ? ]</p>
Here's the deal: I already have a nice audio system consisting of Rotel components and Paradigm Reference speakers. I would like to add onto that rather than starting over completely. I'm in no rush either. If it makes sense to wait a year for all the movie format issues and the like to shake out, I will.
My first question is, are the new flat, wide-screen CRT boxes worth the investment, given how expensive they are to repair (vs. say a projection system of equal size and features)?
Second question is, how does the formatting deal work when dealing with wide-screen sets and DVDs? Particularly HDTV sets that by definition cater to the 16:9 ratio? Seems there are all kinds of movie formats out there, from Letterbox wide-screen to Anamorphic wide-screen at 1.85:1, 2.35:1 and even 2.4:1. Does all this mean that basically, if I spend all that dough on an HDTV set, that it will STILL clip my DVD movies an appreciable amount?
Or is it the case that the ratio has only to do with how much empty or "black" space will appear directly above and beneath the picture - as is the case with most computer monitors? In other words, there will be no clipping, but depending on the format of the movie, more or less vertical space will be taken up by the picture on the 16:9 set?
The most important thing to me is to get a set that will allow me to maximize the viewing area in terms of viewing wide-screen DVD's. In other words, I'd rather have an HDTV-ready set that slightly alters the HDTV picture, and leaves the movies untouched, vs the other way around. I want a real home theatre experience vs a clipped movie experience, to put another way. You want to clip my prime-time shows and sports? Fine, clip away. Just don't clip my movies!
Advice? I'm looking at Toshiba's line of wide-screens btw, so any thoughts geared towards their product line would be even more useful. Sony and JVC is another possibility. Most other brands I won't even consider due to consistent quality issues.
Sound-wise was thinking of adding a Dolby DTS / Surround Pre-amp to my existing Integrated Amp (rather than get an AV receiver), since it has a lot of power, and then just getting a good center channel speaker to add to my two Paradigms...the DVD player should be relatively easy. Was thinking of the Toshiba 2300 since it has a slightly higher resolution than other sub-$300 models and has all the other features I want.
[ 01-15-2002: Message edited by: Moogs ? ]
[ 01-15-2002: Message edited by: Moogs ? ]</p>
Comments
<a href="http://www.prodcat.panasonic.com/shop/templates/square_template.asp?ModelId=11298&show_all=false&p roduct_exists=True&active=1&ModelNo=CT-36H" target="_blank">http://www.prodcat.panasonic.com/shop/templates/square_template.asp?ModelId=11298&show_all=false&p roduct_exists=True&active=1&ModelNo=CT-36H</a> X41
<strong>I would like to add onto that rather than starting over completely. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Sounds like some expensive brands you got there. Best thing I can suggest is to get yourself an outboard Dolby/DTS/etc. decoder. Then connect your amplifiers from there. You'll likely need additional amplifiers to accomodate the additional channels beyond L and R. Maybe a 4-channel amplifier to handle your C, L-rear, R-rear, with your existing stereo amp to handle L and R, and a powered subwoofer to handle the low frequency effects channel. It will be a complicated system, but you said you wanted to "add" onto your current equipment, not replace. Obviously, a simpler setup would be to just get yourself a hi-end home theater receiver that has the decoder and all the amp channels built-in (but that would be sonic blasphemy, wouldn't it?
<strong> [quote]My first question is, are the new flat, wide-screen CRT boxes worth the investment, given how expensive they are to repair (vs. say a projection system of equal size and features)?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't have much info for or against. I would think the decision would be swayed by whether you prefer the "sharper look" of the latest CRT designs over the softer image of a projection type set. You can get a sharp-looking projection TV, but automatically we are talking MUCH more money. Personally, I think the latest CRT designs look great (especially the flat-screen Trinitron designs). There's no comparison in that price range. The only drawback is a limit to overall screen size, in the case you are looking for something like a 50" monster TV of some sort.
<strong> [quote]Second question is, how does the formatting deal work when dealing with wide-screen sets and DVDs? Particularly HDTV sets that by definition cater to the 16:9 ratio?</strong><hr></blockquote>
What do you mean by "clip" your movies. Do you mean chop off the sides of the image? Some sets probably have settings to do just that, but I believe the customary way to handle that is the TV scales the image down so you get the full width of the image with less or more "letterboxing" on the top and bottom of the image. (Basically, what you suspected in the 2nd part of your question.) There's no escaping it really, as movie houses explorer wider and wider formats. 16:9 should cover you for most situations with minimal letterboxing (much better than the standard 4:3 format). ...Or you could wait until some company comes out with a maximum widescreen format (2:1?), but I'm sure the exclusivity of that feature would make such a product quite pricey.
The "cat's meow" would be a "progressive scan" DVD mated up to an HDTV or projection setup that can handle a progressive signal. If you are looking for a svelt home theater setup, it's got to have progressive scan in it! Make sure you ask about this when you shop for your components.
Firstly, there are only a handful of HD broadcasts. Then you need a $300 converter box or rent it monthly from your cable company. Then you can buy HBo HD, ShowTimeHD and like 2-3 others. So for a $1500+ TV, $300 converter box or $5-1$10/month rental, and $5-10 a month for extra HD channels only to watch about 10-15 HD broadcast if you are lucky.
Worse, is that these HD screens are like what 150 LPI, where as current is 72. What happens with regualr TV broadcast sent in 72LPI format, the $1500 HDTV makes up pixels to fill it's 150-some-odd LPI leaving you with a VERY BLURRY and CRAPPY picture.
Seems like a lot of money to watch 15 channels, DVDs and have the rest of the channels, news, sports, ABC, NBC, HBO, MTV, etc look blurry. Not a good idea which is why I will wait for 2006 or so when everyone switches over to HD broadcasts.
They do have a letterbox tv ratio, panasonic and sony I think.
For speakers, I can't rave enough about my Bose set up. $700 at Circuit City 3 years ago. It rocks.
Iwent for the Bose AM10 (now 15 I believe) and I love them. Yamaha DSP R795 home theater amp - optical in/out etc a must... along with DTS/Dolby 5.1 etc etc..... i woundt bother too muich about THX - there are so few DVDs which use it.
DVD player - bottom line is that you have to go progressive out. any display/projector that you buy must be able to handle this. You may also want ot consider multi region capability.
HTPC (Home theater PC) is another option..... but htis thread is not really tha place to go on and on..... you need to go to <a href="http://www.avsforum.com"; target="_blank">http://www.avsforum.com</a>; which is THE place to ask any question about any model to do with home theater (including large lcd/plasma that you seem to be interested in etc) .
Cheers
adam
I saw that Toshiba has a couple of those projectors, but that strikes me as more of a "big-ass-basement" type solution, as no one I know of has room for a 120" screen in their family room!
Randy, thanks for the formatting comments. Sounds like letterbox is simply the term for the black space that occupies the top and bottom of the screen, and that an HDTV screen (at 16:9) should allow for minimal letterboxing with anamorphic wide-screen DVD's...what is the formula for breaking that down numerically? Just divide right? Which would lead me to believe HDTV is also 1.77:1?
As for the amp setup, I think the channel support is there - just have to check the back of the unit. If not, I'll need to get a receiver as you noted. I was just thinking run the DVD audio into the Dolby 5.1 - DTS - Surround (you get the idea) pre-amp, which then runs to the regular amp, which would be connected to the three speakers. I don't think I'll get channels 4&5 unless I really need to. I think a good Center Channel speaker should be the only addition needed in that regard right?
[ 01-16-2002: Message edited by: Moogs ? ]</p>
Those who argue that "HDTV just isn't worth it yet" are people who either haven't seen a good HDTV display, or who just watch a lot of cable TV or satellite. It's true, if you're watching standard-def TV programming most of the time, you're just as well off with a regular TV. But if you watch DVDs, you will be blown away by the picture quality of today's HD sets. With a progressive scan DVD player, you can truly have a "just as good as the theater" experience watching movies.
Moogs, I have a Toshiba set (the 50H81) and I feel the Toshibas have the best price/performance out there. The Sonys are good but expensive, and the Hitachis are about the same price as the Toshibas but much softer. I don't know about JVC -- none of the stores I shopped at had any of those on display.
If you're looking at the Toshibas, their current HDTV product line is split into two general categories -- 16:9 widescreen, and 4:3 standard. I didn't seriously consider the 4:3 sets, but they are cheaper for a given amount of screen real estate. They're just a bad choice if you're going to watch mostly DVDs, like me. The 16:9 Toshiba sets are divided into two product lines, with each line having multiple sizes available.
The lines are the "H" line and the "HX" line. Current models end in "H81" and "HX81" with a two-digit number ahead of that (such as 50H81) that indicates the size of the tube. So the 50H81 and the 50HX81 would both be 50" widescreens, but the HX is the "fancy" line and the H is the "normal" line.
The differences between the H and the HX line are as follows: the HX line has a better protective screen (the H screen is very glossy and can give you glare problems if you watch in a brightly lit room), the HX line has better speakers, and supposedly the color control of the HX line is slightly better. Expect to pay $300-500 more at the same size to get the HX.
If I recall, both lines are currently available in 42" (maybe just the H at this size), 50", 57" and 65". I'm sure about the last three sizes but I just know that the smallest size is in the low forty inch range.
Last thing -- going back to the glare screen on the H models.... they truly do suck if you're watching in anything but a dark home theater room. When we set up my TV in our (bright) living room, my girlfriend said "There's no way we're going to able to watch this until after sunset." I did a bit of reading and found that many Toshiba "H" series owners were removing the front screen assembly and taking off the high-gloss protective screen (the screen assembly is actually 3 layers of plastic, only the outer one being high-gloss) and revealing a lower-gloss front end. That's what I did and it made a huge difference (though it was scary disassembling my new, expensive TV and moving parts around).
One thing everyone seems to ether not know or forget is that back 1997 the FCC ruled that regular NTSC broadcast will stop and that it will be replaced by HDTV ( 2006 ). There isn't the bandwidth for both. If you think this might change well, the FCC is not known for it's reversal of rulings. This was done so broadcasters and content providers would get on the stick and make the change.
I just bought a Hitachi 53" HDTV ( rear projection ). It's so far the best investment I've made. As far as how it handles 4:3 broadcasts you have several options. Fill blows the image up so that the square picture is rectangular. But, it chops off the top and the bottom in the process. Normal puts grey bars ( grey to prevent any burn in ) on the sides. The one I use is Smooth Wide. This stretches the edges of the screen ( in a very subtle way ) to make the image fit the shape.
There is very little picture distortion or loss and it retains all the resolution. Other brands have similar schemes.
If you aren't ready to make the change and still have an old set not to worry you can still use it by purchasing a converter box ( some companies are already working on them ). But, make no mistake HDTV is coming in a big way and will be here in about 4 years.
As for the author of this thread I would recomend getting a rear screen projection HDTV with out the HD tuner if you want to save money ( most HDTV will come from a provider that will have their own tuner anyway ). But, if you are in a hurry you can get some ( small amount ) Direct TV HDTV broadcast now. Ether way it's coming and the amount of programing is going to grow a lot in the next 4 years.
For now I love my new TV. It looks great with DVDs and is the perfect compliment to the rest of my home theater components. For the first time I really have a theater in my living room. One last note I wouldn't buy a CRT based HDTV they are nice but TVs are only getting bigger and movies look better BIG. CRTs are going to be replaced by plasma screens ( still pretty spendy but coming down ) as Steve Jobs has said this is the death of the CRT.
[ 01-16-2002: Message edited by: jimmac ]</p>
<a href="http://www.toshiba.com/tacp/tv/34HF81.html"; target="_blank">http://www.toshiba.com/tacp/tv/34HF81.html</a>;
<a href="http://www.toshiba.com/tacp/tv/36HF71.html"; target="_blank">http://www.toshiba.com/tacp/tv/36HF71.html</a>;
or
<a href="http://www.toshiba.com/tacp/tv/42H81.html"; target="_blank">http://www.toshiba.com/tacp/tv/42H81.html</a>;
or
<a href="http://www.toshiba.com/tacp/tv/36HFX71.html"; target="_blank">http://www.toshiba.com/tacp/tv/36HFX71.html</a>;
or the
<a href="http://www.toshiba.com/tacp/tv/50HX81.html"; target="_blank">http://www.toshiba.com/tacp/tv/50HX81.html</a>;
but it is frankly confusing as to which ones are the best value for the money. One of the thing that is confusing is the models with the big speakers underneath (the50HX81 and 42H81 I think)...are these things good enough (sound wise) that I shouldn't even worry about getting a fancy center channel speaker, Dolby DTS pre-amp and the like - and just run the sound throught he built-in system?
I don't really care about being able to perceive every little aspect of the sound-stage. I just want clear voices, effects (whether high or low pitched) and at least some feeling of depth when say something is coming at me on screen from front to back or from left or right...I realize without rear speakers the rear-to-front audio effects will be reduced but what's your feeling on this?
I'm not so sure I need audiophile quality for the movies the way I like for my music. Miles Davis is one thing, the Matrix is another, ya know? As far as the other three sets, they look like they just have small speakers on either side of and just below the cabinet. For these I should expect to compensate?
The other thing is aside from the screen glare issues, I don't really know from the specs which features are useful when used in conjunction with a good DVD player and which are just fancy add-ons that are not needed. Active scanning is one thing I should look for right? Seems all four models have this based on what I saw...?
As far as television, I would probably have a dish at the time I buy this system, though I don't know where I will be living. Is it pretty much the case that anything in prime time (I noticed ABC's stuff was all HDTV last night) network slots in HDTV, and anything that is cable-specific (Discovery for example) won't be until 2006?
[ 01-16-2002: Message edited by: Moogs ? ]</p>
It's true that cable companies are not being very vocal about their plans for HDTV just yet ( they are still trying to sell the concept of digital cable ) but. they will have to eventually. What ever you do TVs have come a long way in the last couple of years so if you get a new set you will see the benifits even if it's not HDTV just yet.
[ 01-16-2002: Message edited by: jimmac ]</p>
<strong>Moogs,
it's true that cable companies are not being very vocal about their plans for HDTV just yet ( they are still trying to sell the concept of digital cable ) but. they will have to eventually. What ever you do TVs have come a long way in the last couple of years so if you get a new set you will see the benifits even if it's not HDTV just yet.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm a little confused here, I thought I had read that if you're watching your show on a wide-screen HDTV machine, and it's pulling in a regular cable, digital cable or analog (antenna) signal, the picture can get very soft and/or distorted because there isn't enough information to fill the larger screen size...sort of like pixelation on a large monitor maybe?
Or will it be the case that anything I watch - even if it's not broadcast in HDTV, will look much better (even on a wide screen) than what I see on my beater 27" RCA?
I used to have an RCA 35" and it was very nice picture but, I will never go back to 4:3. If you are receiving a standard NTSC ( broadcast ) signal you can expect at best 480 lines of res. This is less than half the capability of most HDTV sets and probably 330 is a more average number. I can say without a doubt I like this picture quality better ( however tapes look like crap only 240 lines ). I don't really notice any detail loss and noise is the fault of the NTSC system and the fact that it is analog.
The picture I get is very detailed and most HDTV sets have features that enhance regular broadcast pictures. If you watch DVDs you will go WOW ( the main scene I use to demo this is the scene from Jurassic Park 3 with the dino fight or the attack scene from Pearl Harbour ). DVDs have a very noise free picture and 500 lines of res so you will notice the difference right away. About the VCR don't fret DVD recorders are already here and are coming down in price. But, no I don't notice any softening of the picture. The only thing I notice is that when using the " smooth wide mode " things do stretch a bit at the edges of the screen like a newscasters arm or head when he/she moves from the center to the side but the effect is very small and you get used to it.
[ 01-16-2002: Message edited by: jimmac ]</p>
<strong>
I'm a little confused here, I thought I had read that if you're watching your show on a wide-screen HDTV machine, and it's pulling in a regular cable, digital cable or analog (antenna) signal, the picture can get very soft and/or distorted because there isn't enough information to fill the larger screen size...sort of like pixelation on a large monitor maybe?
Or will it be the case that anything I watch - even if it's not broadcast in HDTV, will look much better (even on a wide screen) than what I see on my beater 27" RCA?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Cable (analog or digital) will almost certainly look WORSE on a big HDTV set, than it does on your regular 27". The noise and compression artifacts are somewhat masked by the pixellation of standard-def sets, but a really sharp tube displays just how horrible a cable signal truly is. Digital is actually NOT an improvement despite what your cable company will tell you (you'll lose the shadows and noise, but instead you'll get worse compression artifacts and softness).
I'm starting to get used to watching cable on my HD set, but it still looks like crap, especially compared to DVD.
My DirecTV will be installed tomorrow, so I'll get to compare that to cable. Here's hoping...
It's the price you pay for progress. I can remember owning LPs which sounded good on a cheap record player then I got a good stereo system. Snap, crackle, pop. That's the main reason why the CD won out.
<strong> Is it pretty much the case that anything in prime time (I noticed ABC's stuff was all HDTV last night) network slots in HDTV, and anything that is cable-specific (Discovery for example) won't be until 2006? </strong><hr></blockquote>
ABC and CBS have most of their prime-time lineup in HD. NBC only has one prime time show per week (can't remember the name of it -- it's not one of their popular shows), plus the Tonight Show.
Showtime and HBO have a decent amount of programming if you have DishNetwork or DirectTV. I think you have to have Dish for Showtime, but I think you can get HBO on either satellite. Of course you have to have an HD-capable receiver for this.
If you do have an HD receiver then you can get that "over the air" stuff on your local network affiliates. Actually by far the best TV viewing experience available -- better than DVD even -- is the over-the-air HD programming. Man, Alias looks amazing in high def.
"The picture I get is very detailed and most HDTV sets have features that enhance regular broadcast pictures."
seems to be a direct contradiction to:
[quote]Originally posted by sizzle chest:
<strong>Cable (analog or digital) will almost certainly look WORSE on a big HDTV set, than it does on your regular 27". The noise and compression artifacts are somewhat masked by the pixellation of standard-def sets, but a really sharp tube displays just how horrible a cable signal truly is. </strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm probably not asking the questions in the right way, but I *have* heard that HDTV sets - especially the larger screen models (anything above 34") - reveal all the other signal standards' weaknesses in terms of poor resolution and such. Hence one big aspect of my fear of going HDTV this early in the game.
While DVD's ARE going to be the most important viewing type (and I'm sure I'll be very pleased with those on any of these high-end Toshiba 16:9 sets), I worry that virtually everything else I watch is going ot look like shit unless it's ABC primetime stuff.
Sizzle, let me know how the dish goes. Is it the case that Direct TV signals are of a higher quality than the AT&T Digital Cable? I wouldn't be surprised - seems the latter is totally incapable of producing a clear picture for any but the most brightly lit scenes (sporting events, sitcoms, etc). Anything with subtle lighting transitions or dark scenes (like I dunno, 80% of the movies in existence), it gets blocky as hell on my set. I can't imagine it getting worse, you know...it wouldn't even be watchable. Like a damn QT stream!
Anyway, according to my buddy, you can rank the picture quality of these picture sources accordingly:
1. True HDTV programming (OTA or satellite -- this is how I watch Alias)
2. DVD via progressive player & component inputs
3. DVD via interlaced (standard) player & S-video or composite input
4. OTA "standard definition" Digital TV programming via good-quality HD receiver & component inputs (this is how I watch "Enterprise")
5. Dish Network standard def programming
6. DirecTV standard def programming
7. analog cable
8. digital cable
I've heard SO many stories of people signing up to "upgrade" to AT&T digital cable, and being so disgusted with the lousy picture quality that they ended up calling AT&T back up to "downgrade" back to analog cable. The shadows & noise of analog cable are usually preferable to the blocky compression & softness of digital cable. The big cable companies have gotten greedy and over-compressed their signals by a massive margin, trying to cram more and more digital channels into a fixed bandwidth.
Apparently more customers prefer a larger number of poor quality channels, over a smaller number of high quality channels.... or at least this is what AT&T thinks.
[ 01-16-2002: Message edited by: sizzle chest ]</p>
So many questions, so much time.
<strong>That's good to know because we are seriously tired of AT&T's half-assed service and picture quality. We've been thinking about "going dish" for a while now, and the fact that it works better with HDTV / large screen systems makes the decision even easier as far as the source goes. Can you order a Direct TV setup with an HDTV-capable receiver as part of the install, or do you have ot go buy that separately? Or is the HDTV thing decoded once inside the TV itself?
So many questions, so much time.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm sure you can call up DirecTV or DishNetwork and say "Send me a 24-inch elliptical dish (necessary for receiving HD signal from 2nd satellite) and an HD capable receiver, and install it please," and they probably would do so.
Right now at Video Only, you can get the Toshiba HD receiver for about $250 off if you agree to sign up for DirecTV for a year, which is what I did. The receivers are usually $500-1000 -- the Toshiba is usually $700. So I spent $139 for the elliptical dish plus installation, and $450 for the Toshiba HD receiver (which receives both DirecTV and digital OTA via a UHF antenna) plus $20 for the dual-bowtie UHF antenna at Radio Shack. As soon as my dish is installed I'll have the best of all worlds!
As for your last question, very few TVs have an HD receiver built-in, and since the HD standards will change eventually, I would strongly recommend against buying one of those (they cost extra). Buy one of the ordinary HDTVs you mentioned, and they will have a component video input for your HDTV receiver, another component input for your DVD player (assuming you have a progressive-scan DVD player with component outputs), and several S-video and composite inputs for your VCR, laserdisc player, camcorder, etc.