EDIT: Sorry wasn't intending to step on the joke ... good one.
Seriously though ... My 2010 15" MBP i7 had the identical issue weeks before the extended warranty expired. I was fortunate to deal with the online tech support team out if Texas who replaced the motherboard. The MBP, now with an SSD running Mavericks is still runing likes champ. This was never an Apple hardware issue in my case, it was Nvidia's problem.
Wasn't the problem with soldering? Which would make it manufacturing problem (Foxcon or whoever was assembling them) rather than Apple's or Nvidia's. That being said, customers have Apple, not Foxcon laptop, so it makes sense to deal with Apple; and Apple should twist some ears at Foxcon.
I've had very good success appealing to the high road and the higher-ups in companies. If you are polite but firm and escalate up the chain chances are that you'll get more action than taking the word of the front line support people as the last word and then taking it to crowd sourcing.
Hang on, are you saying there's a method of escalating a case that doesn't involve yelling? I should look into that...
Quote:
Originally Posted by DewMe
Electronic products typically exhibit a bathtub curve failure rate, either failing very early (infant mortality) or very late in their lifecycle unless subjected to some damaging influence like excessive shock or heat.
Right. I used to joke that a one-month warranty is as good as a year, because if a device is going to fail due to a defect it's likely to do it right away. This topic has me re-thinking that stance though!
Quote:
Originally Posted by DewMe
Even the government depreciation schedule for IT assets like computers is 5 years, so there is at some level an expectation that the payback or recovery period for these products is at least 5 years. To me this would be a "fair" argument for consumers to use. Of course you'd also have to depreciate the value of the computer over this time frame.
That's an excellent point! Gotta remember that for future arguments discussions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DewMe
Lastly, it's not always reasonable to assume that the more you pay for a product the longer it should last. In fact it's hard to find any product advertised as lasting longer based on initial selling price. I'd bet there are not a large number of owners of exotic sports cars that are raving about the low maintenance costs and amazing reliability of their expensive cars. As consumers we want and expect high price to equate with high reliability, but unless the manufacturer is backing this with solid guarantees you are probably going to be disappointed.
I thought about the exotic car analogy, too. I decided that it doesn't apply to Apple because they tout reliability as a selling feature. Then I tried to remember where/when/how they've done that and began to second guess myself. Off the top of my head, I can't recall ever seeing Apple claim that their products are more reliable than their competitors'. It's USERS who make that claim, not Apple.
A high-end macbook pro is dead by design: it cannot properly dissipate its heat, so components are bound to die early, and because everything is soldered onto the logic board, a prohibitely expensive logic board swap, which is not economically feasible. So, these machines are dead by the time applecare expires...
I have a late-2011 high-end MacBook Pro which I use daily for hours on end. I have had no problems with it. I don't have AppleCare either.
Unless you can show that you are an electrical/electronics engineer well experienced in the design and construction of modern computers or are otherwise qualified, you'd be well advised to avoid making such wildly inaccurate generalizations. There are denizens of this forum who will show you the errors of your ways in very direct and colorful terms.
I have a late-2011 high-end MacBook Pro which I use daily for hours on end. I have had no problems with it. I don't have AppleCare either.
Unless you can show that you are an electrical/electronics engineer well experienced in the design and construction of modern computers or are otherwise qualified, you'd be well advised to avoid making such wildly inaccurate generalizations. There are denizens of this forum who will show you the errors of your ways in very direct and colorful terms.
I am waiting. I'd rather go into a discussion with qualified engineers than with somebody who claims a problem doesn't exist because it is not his problem...
I find that when I plug in a second screen the graphics switches from the integrated (intel) card to the discrete (AMD) card, so the display looks fine on its own but all glitchy in dual screen. Unfortunately the build in screen also goes glitchy if I watch videos as the graphics switches then too.
Samsung still mucks up when it is a single monitor plugged into Mac Mini.
As a customer which has experienced this issue first hand I am disappointed with some users comments stating %u201Cshould of purchased apple care%u201D %u2026 %u201Cits out of warranty not apples fault%u201D
Well yes it is Apples fault! I had this issue since day 1 and apple replaced the MBP straight away. I then got a replacement and not knowing back then what I do now, I just assumed it was a dead unit. My 2nd experienced issues a year in but only intermittently when using it under SOME load not huge amounts and I assumed it could be software related to what I had installed by the time I troubleshooted out software issues and it became more frequent the warranty was over.
Thankfully for me I live in the UK and Apple HQ after an email to Tim Cook got me an out of warranty repair under UK Consumer Law and the Executive Relations staff member confirmed it was a known fault and unacceptable for a machine%u2019s logic board dying under 3 years due to the graphics chip overheating. This was reproduced at a genius store and at this they have replaced my MBP 2011 again, however before the store handed it back to me they confirmed the new board was also defective with the same issue and I would have to wait another few days for a replacement as they didn%u2019t have another in stock.
Thats 3 boards my MBP has been thru thus far and the executive relations staff member promised if it happened again he would issue a replacement.
Apple has done right by me, but only because I have UK consumer law on my side other people in other countries deserve a free repair as you don%u2019t expect the GPU/Logicboard or such an expensive laptop to break under normal use within 3 years especially when mine has never left the desk and has been looked after. Even the genius member when taking it in for repair put down it was impeccable condition so when its returned after repair the case has 0 scratches on it.
Hope this logicbaord lasts but still don%u2019t trust Apple until this is fixed for all and my next purchase won%u2019t be apple unless I see them do right be everyone else in this situation.
Guys wake up...you have rights under the Sale of Goods Act.....contact or look up trading standards........you have rights for 6 yrs in England wales & N Ireland.....5 yrs in Scotland....if you still have proof of purchase go back to the retailer and demand repair or replacement. If they refuse threaten small claims court.
Using the thing on your lap you can be in danger of 2nd degree burns, so likely running certain software prematurely burns out the Mac.
Once upon a time I read somewhere that heat and fear of litigation were the reason manufacturers dropped the term "laptop" and started referring to portable computers as "notebooks" instead. Anyone know if that's true or just an old wives' tale?
Never keep any laptop on your lap. It gives off a excessive amount of heat and you can burn your skin really fast like that especially the Lenovos and Asus brands.It happened to me a few years ago.
My 2011 MBP started to show issues while under AppleCare. I tried to get it fixed but they screwed up and sent my parts back. I took it back later and was denied due to some cosmetic damage. That damage was present during my first trip with notes pre-dating the scuff marks by over a year. It didn't matter, he said the original tech who agreed to fix it was wrong, he was right, and that was it.
I filed a BBB claim and Michael Proctor from "Executive Relations" at Apple gave me a call. We spent 40 minutes talking in circles but the gist of what he said was essentially "I'm not a technician so I have no idea what the hell I'm talking about but the "Genius" knows all and whatever he says goes."
Oh, and they were all arguing that it was my screen that was damaged. Now I have a $2700 paperweight that freezes on the Apple screen. It even looks like it was hit with a cheesy renditioned 1990s virus attack.
Edit: Hope AI is enjoying the Reddit Hug: 3844 upvotes, 2917 comments so far (17 hours in)
I've got a mid-2010 mbp that constantly crashes because of a graphic switching issue. But Apple has never been able to reproduce the fault with their tools so I have had to live with it since out-pf-the-box (reinstalled 100ds of times, but it doesn't matter for them). "Sir, there is no problem with your device. NEXT!!"
Apple has always treated me very well around problems and repairs, even in the absence of dedicated programs to replace items due to any one specified fault. They've replaced both a laptop and a phone for me, and have had a lower overall failure rate than any non-Apple machine I've owned. Any questions have been resolved quickly and easily in store, which rarely happens in the Non-Apple world. Over time, the cost of Apple products has been much lower than the "cheaper" alternatives, al costs considered, and I've spent almost no time without functioning machinery. That said, it is maddening when a machine you rely on seamlessly is imperfect. I hope others find their way to decent repair / replace experiences, but I'm not ready to join a march against Apple just yet.
I own a MBP 2011 and mine failed after 2 years in the exact same way thousands of others have reported. I contacted Apple over the phone and they refused to take responsibility saying "people make up lots of stuff on the internet", but the genius at the store said he'd seen hundreds of cases just on his store (still he didn't accept responsibility).
3 months ago, I ended up paying Apple for a logic board swap without any assurance the computer will not break again in the same way. And I was warned that if my logic board failed again for the same reason after 90 days, the warranty period, I'd have to pay to get it fixed again.
I feel a $2200 computer should last longer than a $600 one as it's a premium item. I also feel the manufacturer should stand behind their customers if the issue is widespread.
The repair for my Macbook Pro 17-inch Early 2011 was actually VERY CHEAP.
When my Macbook Pro's GPU failed after 3 years, and after the expiration of my Applecare warranty, I took my Macbook Pro to my Apple Store and after having the Genius examine it, I asked for Apple's $299 FLAT-RATE REPAIR.
Apple's $299 FLAT-RATE REPAIR is a HUGE BARGAIN - particularly for an out of warranty Mac.
The Apple Store ships it to one of Apple's main repair centers. There they examine the Mac in detail. And they will replace ANYTHING in it that is not up to spec.
For my Macbook Pro 17-inch Early 2011, Apple:
1. Replaced the motherboard with a new motherboard - with a new GPU
2. Replaced the entire HD LCD Screen with a pristine brand new one with new aluminium cover.
3. Replace the PCI ExpressCard cage with a new one
4. Found my OW Computing 16 GB RAM not up to spec (since Apple only officially supports 8 GB RAM for this model) so they took out my OW Computing RAM and placed it in an electrostatic envelope. Then the replaced it with Apple 8 GB RAM. And they returned the OW Computing RAM to me. Of course, I reinstalled the OW Computing RAM since I wanted and it works well with 16 GB RAM.
I got back my Macbook Pro in 4 days. It looks BRAND NEW. It works GREAT!
Note that I seriously doubt that Apple will do a recall for these Macbook Pro GPU failures. I think the vast majority of Macbook Pro 17 2011 continue to work without issues. Out of the 3 million Macbook Pro 17 2011s that were sold, only a tiny number of the Macs have the GPU problem.
Sure, these users are very vocal about their problem. After all, Apple users expect more. BUT they want Apple to rescue them rather than pay for an out of warranty repair. I read all the complaints. And it seems the ones who complain the most are the ones who are cheap and penny pinching. They want something for free. Yet they also purchased the most expensive computer - a Mac. This crybaby sense of entitlement just grates me.Real Apple users are never cheap or penny pinching. They only want the best computing experience. And they are willing and able to pay for it.
If you bought a car, it will only give you at most a 50,000 mile warranty. After that, any repair is YOURproblem. And for European cars like the BMW, those repairs are extremely expensive. This is why they are called enthusiasts cars. When you are an enthusiast, you don't complain about the cost. You only want the best driving experience. If you can't afford it, you wouldn't buy it in the first place - or you would get a better job or two to pay for it.
$299 is a CHEAP price to pay for a FLAT RATE major examination and overhaul of my Mac. Apple did more than just replace the motherboard, way more, over and above way more. I expect it to least another 3 years. I love it!
What if you bought a $50.000 BMW model whose engine melted after 2 years, out of warranty, and there were reports all over the world the engine melts the same way at the same time for thousands of owners and BMW refused to acknowledge a problem? Would you still criticize them and call them "entitled"? Would you rant that since they could afford a $50.000 car they should pay $5.000 for their own repairs against overwhelming evidence?
Because that's the problem: the MBP 2011 fail the same way at the same time for thousands of users. I know: mine failed after 2 years just like everyone else's, and Apple ignores this overwhelming evidence.
Comments
Wasn't the problem with soldering? Which would make it manufacturing problem (Foxcon or whoever was assembling them) rather than Apple's or Nvidia's. That being said, customers have Apple, not Foxcon laptop, so it makes sense to deal with Apple; and Apple should twist some ears at Foxcon.
I've had very good success appealing to the high road and the higher-ups in companies. If you are polite but firm and escalate up the chain chances are that you'll get more action than taking the word of the front line support people as the last word and then taking it to crowd sourcing.
Hang on, are you saying there's a method of escalating a case that doesn't involve yelling? I should look into that...
Electronic products typically exhibit a bathtub curve failure rate, either failing very early (infant mortality) or very late in their lifecycle unless subjected to some damaging influence like excessive shock or heat.
Right. I used to joke that a one-month warranty is as good as a year, because if a device is going to fail due to a defect it's likely to do it right away. This topic has me re-thinking that stance though!
Even the government depreciation schedule for IT assets like computers is 5 years, so there is at some level an expectation that the payback or recovery period for these products is at least 5 years. To me this would be a "fair" argument for consumers to use. Of course you'd also have to depreciate the value of the computer over this time frame.
That's an excellent point! Gotta remember that for future arguments discussions.
Lastly, it's not always reasonable to assume that the more you pay for a product the longer it should last. In fact it's hard to find any product advertised as lasting longer based on initial selling price. I'd bet there are not a large number of owners of exotic sports cars that are raving about the low maintenance costs and amazing reliability of their expensive cars. As consumers we want and expect high price to equate with high reliability, but unless the manufacturer is backing this with solid guarantees you are probably going to be disappointed.
I thought about the exotic car analogy, too. I decided that it doesn't apply to Apple because they tout reliability as a selling feature. Then I tried to remember where/when/how they've done that and began to second guess myself. Off the top of my head, I can't recall ever seeing Apple claim that their products are more reliable than their competitors'. It's USERS who make that claim, not Apple.
A high-end macbook pro is dead by design: it cannot properly dissipate its heat, so components are bound to die early, and because everything is soldered onto the logic board, a prohibitely expensive logic board swap, which is not economically feasible. So, these machines are dead by the time applecare expires...
I have a late-2011 high-end MacBook Pro which I use daily for hours on end. I have had no problems with it. I don't have AppleCare either.
Unless you can show that you are an electrical/electronics engineer well experienced in the design and construction of modern computers or are otherwise qualified, you'd be well advised to avoid making such wildly inaccurate generalizations. There are denizens of this forum who will show you the errors of your ways in very direct and colorful terms.
I have a late-2011 high-end MacBook Pro which I use daily for hours on end. I have had no problems with it. I don't have AppleCare either.
Unless you can show that you are an electrical/electronics engineer well experienced in the design and construction of modern computers or are otherwise qualified, you'd be well advised to avoid making such wildly inaccurate generalizations. There are denizens of this forum who will show you the errors of your ways in very direct and colorful terms.
I am waiting. I'd rather go into a discussion with qualified engineers than with somebody who claims a problem doesn't exist because it is not his problem...
I find that when I plug in a second screen the graphics switches from the integrated (intel) card to the discrete (AMD) card, so the display looks fine on its own but all glitchy in dual screen. Unfortunately the build in screen also goes glitchy if I watch videos as the graphics switches then too.
Samsung still mucks up when it is a single monitor plugged into Mac Mini.
Well yes it is Apples fault! I had this issue since day 1 and apple replaced the MBP straight away. I then got a replacement and not knowing back then what I do now, I just assumed it was a dead unit. My 2nd experienced issues a year in but only intermittently when using it under SOME load not huge amounts and I assumed it could be software related to what I had installed by the time I troubleshooted out software issues and it became more frequent the warranty was over.
Thankfully for me I live in the UK and Apple HQ after an email to Tim Cook got me an out of warranty repair under UK Consumer Law and the Executive Relations staff member confirmed it was a known fault and unacceptable for a machine%u2019s logic board dying under 3 years due to the graphics chip overheating. This was reproduced at a genius store and at this they have replaced my MBP 2011 again, however before the store handed it back to me they confirmed the new board was also defective with the same issue and I would have to wait another few days for a replacement as they didn%u2019t have another in stock.
Thats 3 boards my MBP has been thru thus far and the executive relations staff member promised if it happened again he would issue a replacement.
Apple has done right by me, but only because I have UK consumer law on my side other people in other countries deserve a free repair as you don%u2019t expect the GPU/Logicboard or such an expensive laptop to break under normal use within 3 years especially when mine has never left the desk and has been looked after. Even the genius member when taking it in for repair put down it was impeccable condition so when its returned after repair the case has 0 scratches on it.
Hope this logicbaord lasts but still don%u2019t trust Apple until this is fixed for all and my next purchase won%u2019t be apple unless I see them do right be everyone else in this situation.
The title of this topic doesn't say, but as far as i know, this problem only applies to the early 2011 models.
Using the thing on your lap you can be in danger of 2nd degree burns, so likely running certain software prematurely burns out the Mac.
Reminds me of the problem with some games.
Using the thing on your lap you can be in danger of 2nd degree burns, so likely running certain software prematurely burns out the Mac.
Once upon a time I read somewhere that heat and fear of litigation were the reason manufacturers dropped the term "laptop" and started referring to portable computers as "notebooks" instead. Anyone know if that's true or just an old wives' tale?
Never keep any laptop on your lap. It gives off a excessive amount of heat and you can burn your skin really fast like that especially the Lenovos and Asus brands.It happened to me a few years ago.
The problem is based on both spec and design. And the Pro is a hot design, though the newer one is slightly more becalmed.
What a bunch of BS.
My 2011 MBP started to show issues while under AppleCare. I tried to get it fixed but they screwed up and sent my parts back. I took it back later and was denied due to some cosmetic damage. That damage was present during my first trip with notes pre-dating the scuff marks by over a year. It didn't matter, he said the original tech who agreed to fix it was wrong, he was right, and that was it.
I filed a BBB claim and Michael Proctor from "Executive Relations" at Apple gave me a call. We spent 40 minutes talking in circles but the gist of what he said was essentially "I'm not a technician so I have no idea what the hell I'm talking about but the "Genius" knows all and whatever he says goes."
Oh, and they were all arguing that it was my screen that was damaged. Now I have a $2700 paperweight that freezes on the Apple screen. It even looks like it was hit with a cheesy renditioned 1990s virus attack.
Edit: Hope AI is enjoying the Reddit Hug: 3844 upvotes, 2917 comments so far (17 hours in)
I owned Pros in the past and yes the older ones gave off a lot of heat. The MBA I owned a few months ago was a little cooler to the touch .
Google it and you might just find your Pro will last that way.
Apple has always treated me very well around problems and repairs, even in the absence of dedicated programs to replace items due to any one specified fault. They've replaced both a laptop and a phone for me, and have had a lower overall failure rate than any non-Apple machine I've owned. Any questions have been resolved quickly and easily in store, which rarely happens in the Non-Apple world. Over time, the cost of Apple products has been much lower than the "cheaper" alternatives, al costs considered, and I've spent almost no time without functioning machinery. That said, it is maddening when a machine you rely on seamlessly is imperfect. I hope others find their way to decent repair / replace experiences, but I'm not ready to join a march against Apple just yet.
psst. Genius. Macbook Pro Early-2011 15" and 17" models.
On another note, this does explain why my Macbook crapped out early last year and required a new logic board.
3 months ago, I ended up paying Apple for a logic board swap without any assurance the computer will not break again in the same way. And I was warned that if my logic board failed again for the same reason after 90 days, the warranty period, I'd have to pay to get it fixed again.
I feel a $2200 computer should last longer than a $600 one as it's a premium item. I also feel the manufacturer should stand behind their customers if the issue is widespread.
The repair for my Macbook Pro 17-inch Early 2011 was actually VERY CHEAP.
When my Macbook Pro's GPU failed after 3 years, and after the expiration of my Applecare warranty, I took my Macbook Pro to my Apple Store and after having the Genius examine it, I asked for Apple's $299 FLAT-RATE REPAIR.
Apple's $299 FLAT-RATE REPAIR is a HUGE BARGAIN - particularly for an out of warranty Mac.
The Apple Store ships it to one of Apple's main repair centers. There they examine the Mac in detail. And they will replace ANYTHING in it that is not up to spec.
For my Macbook Pro 17-inch Early 2011, Apple:
1. Replaced the motherboard with a new motherboard - with a new GPU
2. Replaced the entire HD LCD Screen with a pristine brand new one with new aluminium cover.
3. Replace the PCI ExpressCard cage with a new one
4. Found my OW Computing 16 GB RAM not up to spec (since Apple only officially supports 8 GB RAM for this model) so they took out my OW Computing RAM and placed it in an electrostatic envelope. Then the replaced it with Apple 8 GB RAM. And they returned the OW Computing RAM to me. Of course, I reinstalled the OW Computing RAM since I wanted and it works well with 16 GB RAM.
I got back my Macbook Pro in 4 days. It looks BRAND NEW. It works GREAT!
Note that I seriously doubt that Apple will do a recall for these Macbook Pro GPU failures. I think the vast majority of Macbook Pro 17 2011 continue to work without issues. Out of the 3 million Macbook Pro 17 2011s that were sold, only a tiny number of the Macs have the GPU problem.
Sure, these users are very vocal about their problem. After all, Apple users expect more. BUT they want Apple to rescue them rather than pay for an out of warranty repair. I read all the complaints. And it seems the ones who complain the most are the ones who are cheap and penny pinching. They want something for free. Yet they also purchased the most expensive computer - a Mac. This crybaby sense of entitlement just grates me. Real Apple users are never cheap or penny pinching. They only want the best computing experience. And they are willing and able to pay for it.
If you bought a car, it will only give you at most a 50,000 mile warranty. After that, any repair is YOURproblem. And for European cars like the BMW, those repairs are extremely expensive. This is why they are called enthusiasts cars. When you are an enthusiast, you don't complain about the cost. You only want the best driving experience. If you can't afford it, you wouldn't buy it in the first place - or you would get a better job or two to pay for it.
$299 is a CHEAP price to pay for a FLAT RATE major examination and overhaul of my Mac. Apple did more than just replace the motherboard, way more, over and above way more. I expect it to least another 3 years. I love it!
What if you bought a $50.000 BMW model whose engine melted after 2 years, out of warranty, and there were reports all over the world the engine melts the same way at the same time for thousands of owners and BMW refused to acknowledge a problem? Would you still criticize them and call them "entitled"? Would you rant that since they could afford a $50.000 car they should pay $5.000 for their own repairs against overwhelming evidence?
Because that's the problem: the MBP 2011 fail the same way at the same time for thousands of users. I know: mine failed after 2 years just like everyone else's, and Apple ignores this overwhelming evidence.