At this point we are all guessing, but I have a hard time believing that Apple would go with the system that has an additional point of failure. Especially when the alternative seems more secure anyway.
Yeah, I'd say everyone here is just taking a stab at it. So I might as well too!
When you add a card, to Passbook...
1. The card is verified with the issuing bank.
2. *A Device Account Number (DAC) is created for that card and stored in the Secure Element.
When you make a payment...
1. Hold the device next to the POS terminal...
2. The NFC chip in the phone senses the POS and presents the user with the "Touch to Pay" screen.
3. When TouchID confirms authorization, the DAC along with a dynamically created security code are transmitted to the POS.
4. The POS transmits that info to the bank for payment authorization.
5. The bank uses the DAC to determine the actual account number.
*As Apple says, your credit card information is not stored on the device or on Apple's servers, but there has to be a way the bank can determine which account the DAC is linked to? I'm guessing when the card is originally added to Passbook and is being verified, during that process the DAC is transmitted to the bank and linked to the account. This would explain why the banks are required to partner with Apple. And why ApplePay is considered much more secure than other mobile payment methods.
I think you nailed it ...
'Cept I suggest you refer to them as POSTs (or POST terminals) -- as opposed to POS Terminals ...
... Would a rose by any other name smell as sweet?
But the sweet irony is that Amazon's "one-click" shopping will have to support "one-tap" ApplePay.
I need some elucidation on that point.
Here's the way it's going to roll out (in my mind):
You will no longer enter or store your cc info on web sites like Amazon, Apple, Kaiser-Permanenti, Target, Home Depot, Walmart, ATT Uverse, etc.
You will use ApplePay to pay for these things
All newer Apple hardware will have TouchID and NFC (iMacs, iPads, MacBooks ...)
Existing hardware, that lacks TouchID/NFC will use HandOff to communicate with a TouchID device.
Just as iCloud/Keychain can securely generate, store, retrieve and fill in UserIDs and Passwords -- it will be able to handle ApplePay tokens if no TouchID device is available.
When you think about it -- giving someone your credit card (or credit card info) is [potentially] worse than just handing over your wallet.
In our household, we no-longer use any Microsoft or Google products -- when available, we will not do business with anyone who does not accept ApplePay tokens in lieu of credit cards ...
It may take us a few months to get there -- but, get there we will ...
Aside: I go back far enough -- when there were no credit cards -- Try to envision that!
Depends in whether or not Amazon will allow Apple Pay. I think they might reject it because it cuts into their data collection practices.
I don't see how it would cut into their data collecting practices? They still know what you bought, how much you paid for it, who you are, where you live, etc.
But adding an ?Pay option, they just won't get your billing address and credit card / bank information, which is something they can't do anything with anyway.
Depends in whether or not Amazon will allow Apple Pay. I think they might reject it because it cuts into their data collection practices.
1) Does it? It's still your account being used so even with a representable account number it's still tied to your account. If they can get lower merchant fees from using ?Pay it seems like a no brainer for them.
2) I don't quite see how ?Pay can used as-is with Amazon and other online entities. How can I use my Mac to buy something on Amazon and then use my iPhone or ?Watch to send make the payment? That representational number will not be put into Amazon's system for holding or the whole issue with actual CC numbers becomes a problem.
The only solution I have to make online purchases more secure, are like how one should use unique passwords for every site. Meaning, perhaps in a year or two, we get a generated card number from our issuer that can be tied to an online retailer and only used with them. That said, that seems very complex for the user which tells me it's not a valid solution for the average person.
All newer Apple hardware will have TouchID and NFC (iMacs, iPads, MacBooks ...)!
That's what I don't get. How can you use NFC if there is no NFC device next to you to create the short-range magnetic loop? You're using WiFi or Ethernet with TCP/IP to communicate with the retailer. NFC is completely useless and you aren't going to bring your Mac into a brick-and-mortar store to use it.
1) Does it? It's still your account being used so even with a representable account number it's still tied to your account. If they can get lower merchant fees from using ?Pay it seems like a no brainer for them.
2) I don't quite see how ?Pay can used as-is with Amazon and other online entities. How can I use my Mac to buy something on Amazon and then use my iPhone or ?Watch to send make the payment? That representational number will not be put into Amazon's system for holding or the whole issue with actual CC numbers becomes a problem.
The only solution I have to make online purchases more secure, are like how one should use unique passwords for every site. Meaning, perhaps in a year or two, we get a generated card number from our issuer that can be tied to an online retailer and only used with them. That said, that seems very complex for the user which tells me it's not a valid solution for the average person.
I'm still cloudy as to how Apple will make Apple Pay work online. If it's all reliant on new hardware, it'll take a while to roll out.
How would it have played out at Best Buy? You would walk the printer up to the customer service counter and returned it. Oh, you would have saved $8 too.
Amazon will undoubtedly support ?Pay! As a business sometimes there are necessary "evils" that you must support in order to obtain the most benefit for the business. As an online store Amazon's main goal is, and has been, to make the buying experience the most frictionless process imaginable so that people aren't spending too much time second guessing themselves when it's time to buy, especially since they still do have to compete with brick and mortar. ?Pay will provide that and it will do so on a TON of devices. Add in the fact that amazon hasn't even been able to capture any success with their own phone which has the primary purpose of making it easy for people to purchase from Amazon. There's no way in hell they're going to turn this down this payment method. They're not that stupid or prideful to know that their own device numbers pale in comparison to Apple's, and they don't lack that much foresight to see how great this will be for them. Mark my words.
If the token used is relatively short, it could be manually entered in a text field rather than been exchanged by NFC.
To me that means it needs an entirely unique token for each site, which is cumbersome, otherwise you can just input your CC number. You could do a unique token that is the length of a CC number but still representational of your original number (think: email alias) which will protect you from losing the original number and having to redo your ?Pay cards again, but that's still really solving the issue of complexity or security.
I don't shop at either Walmart nor Best Buy for reasons that have nothing to do with socioeconomic status. Sounds like you have some kind of wealth-esteem issues. Apple products aren't for snobs or the rich. That's an old, worn out tech meme, but it still surfaces now and then in the forums.
You aimed at the wrong guy, he was responding to the guy with socioeconomic status issues.
The reason that Walmart and Best Buy have not joined is that they want to be in position to tell the customer which card to use- the one with a lower discount rate. With apple pay, the retailers have to accept whatever the iPhone user has designated on their iPhone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
You know... I wouldn’t put this past them.
They want you to use it as a Debit Card so there is no fees on their end. They got called out a few years ago for refusing credit if the MC was a MC Debit. The terms of MC says they must accept as credit if user wants to do it that way. With Applepay, it will be straight credit and they don't have the option to push the user into a debit transaction vs a credit transaction. My opinion on one possible reason.
Depends in whether or not Amazon will allow Apple Pay. I think they might reject it because it cuts into their data collection practices.
1) Does it? It's still your account being used so even with a representable account number it's still tied to your account. If they can get lower merchant fees from using ?Pay it seems like a no brainer for them.
2) I don't quite see how ?Pay can used as-is with Amazon and other online entities. How can I use my Mac to buy something on Amazon and then use my iPhone or ?Watch to send make the payment? That representational number will not be put into Amazon's system for holding or the whole issue with actual CC numbers becomes a problem.
The only solution I have to make online purchases more secure, are like how one should use unique passwords for every site. Meaning, perhaps in a year or two, we get a generated card number from our issuer that can be tied to an online retailer and only used with them. That said, that seems very complex for the user which tells me it's not a valid solution for the average person.
The AppleWatch is the key:
it can be used with iPhones as demoed (iPhone supplies the TouchID and AppleWatch supplies the NFC connection).
If no NFC POST is available, the AppleWatch can use BLE/WiFi to communicate with a non-NFC POST.
On non-NFC Apple devices (current iPhones, iPads, AppleTVs, Macs, MacBooks) it uses Handoff to communicate with the AppleWatch.
Just as iCloud/Keychain can securely generate, store, retrieve and fill in UserIDs and Passwords -- it will be able to handle ApplePay tokens if no TouchID device is available.
As to the latter -- I think that Apple will offer a free iCloud account and supporting software for all popular platforms and devices -- it will just work better on Apples hardware and software.
it can be used with iPhones as demoed (iPhone supplies the TouchID and AppleWatch supplies the NFC connection).
If no NFC POST is available, the AppleWatch can use BLE/WiFi to communicate with a non-NFC POST.
On non-NFC Apple devices (current iPhones, iPads, AppleTVs, Macs, MacBooks) it uses Handoff to communicate with the AppleWatch.
Just as iCloud/Keychain can securely generate, store, retrieve and fill in UserIDs and Passwords -- it will be able to handle ApplePay tokens if no TouchID device is available.
As to the latter -- I think that Apple will offer a free iCloud account and supporting software for all popular platforms and devices -- it will just work better on Apples hardware and software.
That sounds horrible to me. If I'm making a purchase in my browser I want to complete it in the browser. At least with sites that take PayPal it opens up a portal that connects to their back end. I don't want to have to use multiple HW devices in order to make a simple purchase online.
That sounds horrible to me. If I'm making a purchase in my browser I want to complete it in the browser. At least with sites that take PayPal it opens up a portal that connects to their back end. I don't want to have to use multiple HW devices in order to make a simple purchase online.
Which is why I think all new Apple hardware will have Touch ID integrated, or will be able to (via NFC) connect to a Touch ID device to complete a transaction.
I will no longer purchase from Best Buy unless a last resort; to processes returns they scan and store your drivers license! How's that for a ripe platform to hack?
Comments
I think you nailed it ...
'Cept I suggest you refer to them as POSTs (or POST terminals) -- as opposed to POS Terminals ...
... Would a rose by any other name smell as sweet?
I need some elucidation on that point.
Depends in whether or not Amazon will allow Apple Pay. I think they might reject it because it cuts into their data collection practices.
Here's the way it's going to roll out (in my mind):
When you think about it -- giving someone your credit card (or credit card info) is [potentially] worse than just handing over your wallet.
In our household, we no-longer use any Microsoft or Google products -- when available, we will not do business with anyone who does not accept ApplePay tokens in lieu of credit cards ...
It may take us a few months to get there -- but, get there we will ...
Aside: I go back far enough -- when there were no credit cards -- Try to envision that!
Depends in whether or not Amazon will allow Apple Pay. I think they might reject it because it cuts into their data collection practices.
I don't see how it would cut into their data collecting practices? They still know what you bought, how much you paid for it, who you are, where you live, etc.
But adding an ?Pay option, they just won't get your billing address and credit card / bank information, which is something they can't do anything with anyway.
1) Does it? It's still your account being used so even with a representable account number it's still tied to your account. If they can get lower merchant fees from using ?Pay it seems like a no brainer for them.
2) I don't quite see how ?Pay can used as-is with Amazon and other online entities. How can I use my Mac to buy something on Amazon and then use my iPhone or ?Watch to send make the payment? That representational number will not be put into Amazon's system for holding or the whole issue with actual CC numbers becomes a problem.
The only solution I have to make online purchases more secure, are like how one should use unique passwords for every site. Meaning, perhaps in a year or two, we get a generated card number from our issuer that can be tied to an online retailer and only used with them. That said, that seems very complex for the user which tells me it's not a valid solution for the average person.
That's what I don't get. How can you use NFC if there is no NFC device next to you to create the short-range magnetic loop? You're using WiFi or Ethernet with TCP/IP to communicate with the retailer. NFC is completely useless and you aren't going to bring your Mac into a brick-and-mortar store to use it.
I'm still cloudy as to how Apple will make Apple Pay work online. If it's all reliant on new hardware, it'll take a while to roll out.
[LIST=1]
[*] It costs less to everyone (offers bigger rewards)
[*] it is secure for everyone
[*] it is ridiculously easy to use
[/LIST]
It [B][I] will [/I][/B] happen, soon -- resistance is futile!
BTW, that goes for buying things through the AppleTV, too.
I'm still cloudy as to how Apple will make Apple Pay work online. If it's all reliant on new hardware, it'll take a while to roll out.
If the token used is relatively short, it could be manually entered in a text field rather than been exchanged by NFC.
You missed the, 'it was very heavy' part ...
Amazon will undoubtedly support ?Pay! As a business sometimes there are necessary "evils" that you must support in order to obtain the most benefit for the business. As an online store Amazon's main goal is, and has been, to make the buying experience the most frictionless process imaginable so that people aren't spending too much time second guessing themselves when it's time to buy, especially since they still do have to compete with brick and mortar. ?Pay will provide that and it will do so on a TON of devices. Add in the fact that amazon hasn't even been able to capture any success with their own phone which has the primary purpose of making it easy for people to purchase from Amazon. There's no way in hell they're going to turn this down this payment method. They're not that stupid or prideful to know that their own device numbers pale in comparison to Apple's, and they don't lack that much foresight to see how great this will be for them. Mark my words.
To me that means it needs an entirely unique token for each site, which is cumbersome, otherwise you can just input your CC number. You could do a unique token that is the length of a CC number but still representational of your original number (think: email alias) which will protect you from losing the original number and having to redo your ?Pay cards again, but that's still really solving the issue of complexity or security.
You aimed at the wrong guy, he was responding to the guy with socioeconomic status issues.
I'm still cloudy as to how Apple will make Apple Pay work online. If it's all reliant on new hardware, it'll take a while to roll out.
Wouldn't be terribly hard to implement in the browser...
eCommerce sites would have to sign-up to ?Pay and add a button to their site.
Apple's server would send a notification to your ?Pay device for verification and account number.
?Once you're verified using TouchID, your device sends the DAC as it normally would.
Once payment is authorized, the device then responds to Apple's ?Pay service.
Apple then informs the eCommerce site that payment was made and sends them the transaction information.
The reason that Walmart and Best Buy have not joined is that they want to be in position to tell the customer which card to use- the one with a lower discount rate. With apple pay, the retailers have to accept whatever the iPhone user has designated on their iPhone.
You know... I wouldn’t put this past them.
They want you to use it as a Debit Card so there is no fees on their end. They got called out a few years ago for refusing credit if the MC was a MC Debit. The terms of MC says they must accept as credit if user wants to do it that way. With Applepay, it will be straight credit and they don't have the option to push the user into a debit transaction vs a credit transaction. My opinion on one possible reason.
The AppleWatch is the key:
As to the latter -- I think that Apple will offer a free iCloud account and supporting software for all popular platforms and devices -- it will just work better on Apples hardware and software.
That sounds horrible to me. If I'm making a purchase in my browser I want to complete it in the browser. At least with sites that take PayPal it opens up a portal that connects to their back end. I don't want to have to use multiple HW devices in order to make a simple purchase online.
Which is why I think all new Apple hardware will have Touch ID integrated, or will be able to (via NFC) connect to a Touch ID device to complete a transaction.