Read the very next sentence where I say "It depends on HOW you do it".
It stems from the fact that I live in NYC and I saw people in line blocking the surrounding businesses from operating normally after repeatedly being asked to move by the business owners and the police. I live here and see it and see the mess and the lines throughout the month of October.
Yes people helping with committing crimes are not doing anything wrong because they didn't do the crime. US law doesn't hold that view. Chinese authorities have already verified that the devices didn't come from China and they came in from the US and other countries and have started cracking down as a result. We all know full well what these people are doing. When it's just one person doing it. No one cares but the scale of what has been happening over the recent years is the problem.
The black market can't happen at the scale it is without these people. They are very much a part of the black market. It is illegal to resell the iPhone in a country that hasn't approved the device to be for sale in that country. He's wrong in particular as it relates to china.
"These people"? Plus they aren't the only ones blocking businesses and sidewalks. People of all races/nationalities do the same thing. Plus not all Chinese people sell these for the overseas market.
So you are making a big deal about some people smuggling phones into China. Why are you so concerned that the Chinese government gets what they want? Is it illegal according to the Chinese government? Yes.
But so is being a practicing Christian.
Its also illegal to be Gay in China.
Its also illegal to speak out against the government in China.
All those offenses can lead to decades in jail and even execution.
So i ask again; is it really a big deal reselling an iphone in China? Really?
Its also illegal in China to practice Christianity.
Why are you so concerned about a Goverment that will literally execute a person for saying one word against the government?
In the 1800's it was 'illegal' to help smuggle slaves out of the South to save their lives. Do you think what those kind hearted people did was wrong? There is a difference between illegal and what is right.
So you are on the side of a government (China) that executes people for being gay?
You are worrying about China not getting their taxes so there politicians and crownies can continue to enrich themself?
Who exactly gets hurt when a phone is 'smuggled' into China?
ONly the Chinese goverment because they don't get their 'cut'.
The same Chinese goverment that executes people because they read the Bible.
Wow.... As evil as you apparently think China is I'm surprised you don't question Apple's wisdom in even dealing with them. They obviously have to cow-tow to the Chinese government even to do business there (ie iCloud hosted on Chinese servers rather than Apple's own off-shore to comply with intelligence gathering laws). Perhaps they should do as Google and DuckDuckGo have done, refuse to play along. Whad'ya think?
You should really just stop because the mods are going to see what yiu wrote. But please see if you can be more offensive. Just because China has human rights abuses doesnt mean you can smuggle anything you want into their country. Its the same as the US. We have restrictions on what can be imported into the US
I don't get this at all, I mean how do you actually smuggle in iPhone/s to China? In a suitcase?
I mean isn't a suitcase of Twinkies gonna attract some attention? Are they smuggled in one by one? The cost of the air fare must be factored in as well.
My guess is that China has a bunch of corrupt Customs officials and this is just another aspect of Chinese organised crime.
First response to AdonisSMU's comment should have just been a hashtag / hyperbole, and then let it drop.
BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH...
I think I'll go outside and get a cappuccino.
What was hyperbolic about what I said? Yes please wake up. You aren't making any sense. There was nothing hyperbolic about what I said. I was just laughing at people trying to defend the obviously illegal behavior of the smuggling rings.
In the 1800's it was 'illegal' to help smuggle slaves out of the South to save their lives. Do you think what those kind hearted people did was wrong? There is a difference between illegal and what is right.
The NYC line had about 2000 people in it. Even if 90% were Chinese and ALL of them were resallers that's still way less than 10,000 phones. People are getting crazy about a drop in the bucket. The ratio between sold phones and 'illegally smuggled' phones is close to 10,000 to 1.
So why all the fuss?
China has WAY BIGGER problems than a few thousand iPhones being smuggled.
How about people getting their heads cut off because of different political and religious views?
Than why is selling iPhones so important if the people of China are risking getting their head cut off for breaking their laws?
He wrote, "Yes people helping with committing crimes are not doing anything wrong because they didn't do the crime. US law doesn't hold that view."
So if US law doesn't hold the view that helping others to commit a crime is legal then, by his logic, Apple is culpable for supporting these black market iPhones in China. Apple certainly knows more about where these phones are going and how they are being used more than any of these poor line sitters.
Bottom line: It's not illegal for Apple to sell these phones and it's not illegal for people to sit for days in line to buy these phones just resell them.
Apple has on more than one occasion modified their process as a result of scalping. They clearly don't want to upset the Chinese government in any way and jeopardize their relationship with them. No one is debating Apple's responsibility here. You tried to say that Apple is helping people commit crimes over in China when that is not in fact the case. Apple has an authorized reseller program. Those people are not operating under that agreement.
It's not legal to resell the phones in China without going through their approval process and it is also illegal try to get them imported their. If those people wanted to try to resell them to US citizens fine. There is nothing that can be done. That is not what is happening.
LMAO! @ People on here claiming Chinese iPhone smugglers were doing something that was legal. Oops! It was clear as day that this wasn't legal. They have an approval process for a reason.
That approval process has nothing to do with the legally of what the resellers are doing in the US, UK etc.
The approval process being referred to is the Chinese equal to the FCC, which also has to approve all devices that will be using cell connections etc in the US. Until the iPhone gets those approvals Apple can not sell it in China.
What the smugglers are doing is basically the iPhone equivalent of what Apple et al does with their taxes, using the law in their favor. Yes these smugglers are doing is legal in the sense that they are paying legit money, starting accounts with legit SS numbers etc as needed, its still crappy. To the Chinese gov't its illegal because the devices aren't approved for use in China and any required taxes from the sales won't be paid to China which won't make them happy.
As for the issue of whether being approved 'soon' will stop the resellers, no it won't. Because the bulk of that behavior comes the first weekend and into the first week. Unless soon is today and sales start immediately the resellers will keep at it. Because they can. One thing that actually helps them is that Apple is scared of being sued for being racist because the bulks of the resellers are one of four ethnic groups. Even if Apple isn't basing a refusal to sell simply on someone being Chinese but rather a confluence of factors, there is still the risk of fights, lawsuits etc. And with the way the blogs and social media are, the 'racist' part of the story will spread like wildlife while the details like the person was in the company of a known reseller, they didn't have the appropriate documents to start a required carrier account or were refused by the carrier (because they have started dozens of accounts and cancelled them the next day) or whatever will be passed over
That approval process has nothing to do with the legally of what the resellers are doing in the US, UK etc.
The approval process being referred to is the Chinese equal to the FCC, which also has to approve all devices that will be using cell connections etc in the US. Until the iPhone gets those approvals Apple can not sell it in China.
What the smugglers are doing is basically the iPhone equivalent of what Apple et al does with their taxes, using the law in their favor. Yes these smugglers are doing is legal in the sense that they are paying legit money, starting accounts with legit SS numbers etc as needed, its still crappy. To the Chinese gov't its illegal because the devices aren't approved for use in China and any required taxes from the sales won't be paid to China which won't make them happy.
As for the issue of whether being approved 'soon' will stop the resellers, no it won't. Because the bulk of that behavior comes the first weekend and into the first week. Unless soon is today and sales start immediately the resellers will keep at it. Because they can. One thing that actually helps them is that Apple is scared of being sued for being racist because the bulks of the resellers are one of four ethnic groups. Even if Apple isn't basing a refusal to sell simply on someone being Chinese but rather a confluence of factors, there is still the risk of fights, lawsuits etc. And with the way the blogs and social media are, the 'racist' part of the story will spread like wildlife while the details like the person was in the company of a known reseller, they didn't have the appropriate documents to start a required carrier account or were refused by the carrier (because they have started dozens of accounts and cancelled them the next day) or whatever will be passed over
I was always referring to the Chinese part of the equation as it relates to legality of the illegal imports. I don't know how one could've gleaned that it was illegal in the US to resell something you bought in the US for a profit. That was never up for a debate. People are just trying to cling to anything to try and delegitimize the Chinese government.
So you hold Apple and their employees responsible for selling black market goods?
In a way they are. or at least assisting in it. If they are knowingly selling to a reseller. Apple's own website says they sell to end users only. Their staff should abide by that. If I'm an Apple staffer and I know that the person in line, asking to buy 10 device only iPhones with no activation, paying cash is a reseller because I've seen him in dozens of times, including twice already that same day doing the same buy, then I should be saying no to that person. Hell just the fact that allegedly there is a 10 per lifetime limit and he's been in already should be a refusal if I am certain its the same guy. There's also allegedly a limit of 2 per day if they aren't activated and 5 if they are for a preexisting family plan, so again valid reasons to deny the sale. But the staff doesn't do it. Why? Because the managers don't back them up since to them a sale is a sale and money for their bonuses
Sure what they are doing isn't illegal but it is perhaps unethical. If you are going to make a rule you should stand by it. Not even trying to enforce it by using things like requiring all sales to be doing via the website for instore pickup so they can monitor for foul behavior, or at least requiring a pre-existing apple id (at least 24 hours old with full billing address etc) to get a 'reservation pass' in line. something. Even just requiring that all phones sold the first 10 days must be activated to a carrier account would stem some of the tide. Apple doesn't seem to be doing anything in the US, perhaps because they didn't have a giant riot like in China a couple of years ago. But it is going to happen one of these days and it will be ugly. And Apple will get blamed this time because they have ignored the issue for so long.
It's a shame that certain people in this thread are putting primitive tribalism ahead of rational thought and common sense, in their ridiculous defense of these Chinese scalpers and iPhone smugglers.
To be honest, I don't really give a rat's ass about the country of China if they miss out on some tax and customs revenue caused by smuggling. That's not my main argument against these scalpers.
What I do care about is that real Apple fans who wait in these lines often get shafted by these organized smugglers. I've been there before and witnessed it myself, when I waited in a few lines a couple of years ago. My loyalty lies with real Apple fans and I have no sympathy for these vast, organized groups of non-Apple users, scalpers and smugglers.
I also believe that anybody who cuts and sneaks their way into such a line deserves to be met with physical violence and bodily harm, yes I really do. It is an incredibly rude and disrespectful thing to do, and they deserve to be disrespected back. I will honestly have a big laugh when the first rude and disrespectful scalper is shot and killed on an Apple line. My comment will be "good for them!".
These Chinese scalpers and loser line sitters basically ruin the experience for genuine Apple fans, and they also decrease the chances of real Apple fans from getting the product that they wish to get. Apple should have some kind of loyalty system for Apple users who are real customers and have been so for a long time. Apple should address this whole line fiasco system that they currently use, and come up with a better method.
Comments
When you form a statement using simplistic terms like legal v illegal you open yourself up for all examples.
"These people"? Plus they aren't the only ones blocking businesses and sidewalks. People of all races/nationalities do the same thing. Plus not all Chinese people sell these for the overseas market.
Wow.... As evil as you apparently think China is I'm surprised you don't question Apple's wisdom in even dealing with them. They obviously have to cow-tow to the Chinese government even to do business there (ie iCloud hosted on Chinese servers rather than Apple's own off-shore to comply with intelligence gathering laws). Perhaps they should do as Google and DuckDuckGo have done, refuse to play along. Whad'ya think?
I don't get this at all, I mean how do you actually smuggle in iPhone/s to China? In a suitcase?
I mean isn't a suitcase of Twinkies gonna attract some attention? Are they smuggled in one by one? The cost of the air fare must be factored in as well.
My guess is that China has a bunch of corrupt Customs officials and this is just another aspect of Chinese organised crime.
Jeeze I can't believe this ridiculous thread.
First response to AdonisSMU's comment should have just been a hashtag / hyperbole, and then let it drop.
BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH...
I think I'll go outside and get a cappuccino.
There is something humorous in that my online order has been stuck in ZhengZhou, China for 3 days.
Jeeze I can't believe this ridiculous thread.
First response to AdonisSMU's comment should have just been a hashtag / hyperbole, and then let it drop.
BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH...
I think I'll go outside and get a cappuccino.
Thank you for participating.
So you hold Apple and their employees responsible for selling black market goods?
I never held Apple responsible for this as it's not their fault. I don't know where you got that from.
Who exactly gets hurt when a phone is 'smuggled' into China?
ONly the Chinese goverment because they don't get their 'cut'.
The same Chinese goverment that executes people because they read the Bible.
What a swift move from denying the fact that "hordes" of cash paying Chinese sweeping clean Apple stores to being a Snowden of China.
Jeeze I can't believe this ridiculous thread.
First response to AdonisSMU's comment should have just been a hashtag / hyperbole, and then let it drop.
BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH...
I think I'll go outside and get a cappuccino.
What was hyperbolic about what I said? Yes please wake up. You aren't making any sense. There was nothing hyperbolic about what I said. I was just laughing at people trying to defend the obviously illegal behavior of the smuggling rings.
Illegal in China.
In the 1800's it was 'illegal' to help smuggle slaves out of the South to save their lives. Do you think what those kind hearted people did was wrong? There is a difference between illegal and what is right.
Hyperbole much?
You dont like China...CHECK. ... got it.
Do you have numbers of your claim?
How many is a 'horde'?
The NYC line had about 2000 people in it. Even if 90% were Chinese and ALL of them were resallers that's still way less than 10,000 phones. People are getting crazy about a drop in the bucket. The ratio between sold phones and 'illegally smuggled' phones is close to 10,000 to 1.
So why all the fuss?
China has WAY BIGGER problems than a few thousand iPhones being smuggled.
How about people getting their heads cut off because of different political and religious views?
Than why is selling iPhones so important if the people of China are risking getting their head cut off for breaking their laws?
He wrote, "Yes people helping with committing crimes are not doing anything wrong because they didn't do the crime. US law doesn't hold that view."
So if US law doesn't hold the view that helping others to commit a crime is legal then, by his logic, Apple is culpable for supporting these black market iPhones in China. Apple certainly knows more about where these phones are going and how they are being used more than any of these poor line sitters.
Bottom line: It's not illegal for Apple to sell these phones and it's not illegal for people to sit for days in line to buy these phones just resell them.
Apple has on more than one occasion modified their process as a result of scalping. They clearly don't want to upset the Chinese government in any way and jeopardize their relationship with them. No one is debating Apple's responsibility here. You tried to say that Apple is helping people commit crimes over in China when that is not in fact the case. Apple has an authorized reseller program. Those people are not operating under that agreement.
It's not legal to resell the phones in China without going through their approval process and it is also illegal try to get them imported their. If those people wanted to try to resell them to US citizens fine. There is nothing that can be done. That is not what is happening.
LMAO! @ People on here claiming Chinese iPhone smugglers were doing something that was legal. Oops! It was clear as day that this wasn't legal. They have an approval process for a reason.
That approval process has nothing to do with the legally of what the resellers are doing in the US, UK etc.
The approval process being referred to is the Chinese equal to the FCC, which also has to approve all devices that will be using cell connections etc in the US. Until the iPhone gets those approvals Apple can not sell it in China.
What the smugglers are doing is basically the iPhone equivalent of what Apple et al does with their taxes, using the law in their favor. Yes these smugglers are doing is legal in the sense that they are paying legit money, starting accounts with legit SS numbers etc as needed, its still crappy. To the Chinese gov't its illegal because the devices aren't approved for use in China and any required taxes from the sales won't be paid to China which won't make them happy.
As for the issue of whether being approved 'soon' will stop the resellers, no it won't. Because the bulk of that behavior comes the first weekend and into the first week. Unless soon is today and sales start immediately the resellers will keep at it. Because they can. One thing that actually helps them is that Apple is scared of being sued for being racist because the bulks of the resellers are one of four ethnic groups. Even if Apple isn't basing a refusal to sell simply on someone being Chinese but rather a confluence of factors, there is still the risk of fights, lawsuits etc. And with the way the blogs and social media are, the 'racist' part of the story will spread like wildlife while the details like the person was in the company of a known reseller, they didn't have the appropriate documents to start a required carrier account or were refused by the carrier (because they have started dozens of accounts and cancelled them the next day) or whatever will be passed over
That approval process has nothing to do with the legally of what the resellers are doing in the US, UK etc.
The approval process being referred to is the Chinese equal to the FCC, which also has to approve all devices that will be using cell connections etc in the US. Until the iPhone gets those approvals Apple can not sell it in China.
What the smugglers are doing is basically the iPhone equivalent of what Apple et al does with their taxes, using the law in their favor. Yes these smugglers are doing is legal in the sense that they are paying legit money, starting accounts with legit SS numbers etc as needed, its still crappy. To the Chinese gov't its illegal because the devices aren't approved for use in China and any required taxes from the sales won't be paid to China which won't make them happy.
As for the issue of whether being approved 'soon' will stop the resellers, no it won't. Because the bulk of that behavior comes the first weekend and into the first week. Unless soon is today and sales start immediately the resellers will keep at it. Because they can. One thing that actually helps them is that Apple is scared of being sued for being racist because the bulks of the resellers are one of four ethnic groups. Even if Apple isn't basing a refusal to sell simply on someone being Chinese but rather a confluence of factors, there is still the risk of fights, lawsuits etc. And with the way the blogs and social media are, the 'racist' part of the story will spread like wildlife while the details like the person was in the company of a known reseller, they didn't have the appropriate documents to start a required carrier account or were refused by the carrier (because they have started dozens of accounts and cancelled them the next day) or whatever will be passed over
I was always referring to the Chinese part of the equation as it relates to legality of the illegal imports. I don't know how one could've gleaned that it was illegal in the US to resell something you bought in the US for a profit. That was never up for a debate. People are just trying to cling to anything to try and delegitimize the Chinese government.
So you hold Apple and their employees responsible for selling black market goods?
In a way they are. or at least assisting in it. If they are knowingly selling to a reseller. Apple's own website says they sell to end users only. Their staff should abide by that. If I'm an Apple staffer and I know that the person in line, asking to buy 10 device only iPhones with no activation, paying cash is a reseller because I've seen him in dozens of times, including twice already that same day doing the same buy, then I should be saying no to that person. Hell just the fact that allegedly there is a 10 per lifetime limit and he's been in already should be a refusal if I am certain its the same guy. There's also allegedly a limit of 2 per day if they aren't activated and 5 if they are for a preexisting family plan, so again valid reasons to deny the sale. But the staff doesn't do it. Why? Because the managers don't back them up since to them a sale is a sale and money for their bonuses
Sure what they are doing isn't illegal but it is perhaps unethical. If you are going to make a rule you should stand by it. Not even trying to enforce it by using things like requiring all sales to be doing via the website for instore pickup so they can monitor for foul behavior, or at least requiring a pre-existing apple id (at least 24 hours old with full billing address etc) to get a 'reservation pass' in line. something. Even just requiring that all phones sold the first 10 days must be activated to a carrier account would stem some of the tide. Apple doesn't seem to be doing anything in the US, perhaps because they didn't have a giant riot like in China a couple of years ago. But it is going to happen one of these days and it will be ugly. And Apple will get blamed this time because they have ignored the issue for so long.
No reason for Apple not to sell product to these good people.
Yes there is. It's called the law. Apple must have government approval to sell the iPhone in China. They don't at this point so they aren't.
It's a shame that certain people in this thread are putting primitive tribalism ahead of rational thought and common sense, in their ridiculous defense of these Chinese scalpers and iPhone smugglers.
To be honest, I don't really give a rat's ass about the country of China if they miss out on some tax and customs revenue caused by smuggling. That's not my main argument against these scalpers.
What I do care about is that real Apple fans who wait in these lines often get shafted by these organized smugglers. I've been there before and witnessed it myself, when I waited in a few lines a couple of years ago. My loyalty lies with real Apple fans and I have no sympathy for these vast, organized groups of non-Apple users, scalpers and smugglers.
I also believe that anybody who cuts and sneaks their way into such a line deserves to be met with physical violence and bodily harm, yes I really do. It is an incredibly rude and disrespectful thing to do, and they deserve to be disrespected back. I will honestly have a big laugh when the first rude and disrespectful scalper is shot and killed on an Apple line. My comment will be "good for them!".
These Chinese scalpers and loser line sitters basically ruin the experience for genuine Apple fans, and they also decrease the chances of real Apple fans from getting the product that they wish to get. Apple should have some kind of loyalty system for Apple users who are real customers and have been so for a long time. Apple should address this whole line fiasco system that they currently use, and come up with a better method.