One thing that is certain is that there is no G5. Think about it. If a 8500 series chip was anywhere close to being made for the Mac - why would Apple even consider calling the Apollo (on .13 µM) with DDR a G5? Because there is no real G5. Yet. The G5 will come after the G4 has run its course and that means moving to a .13 µM size with SOI. That will come this summer with the next Apple chip set to come in 2003. If we are lucky. I love Apple, but really, Apple does not lead in the Hardware side anymore. Those days are over. They are now about the computer being more than a computer. In that arena - things like processor speed can get lost.
I don't think 1.4ghz is that hard to believe but 1.3 sounds better. the only reason i can believe this is because the dual 1ghz G4 is shipping in 1-3 days. which means they have a ton of those ghz chips. (They didn't want to release any faster chips or it would take away the press from the imac and it would take probably weeks to ship so it gives the power user another reason to buy the pmG4 over the imac because it is shipping now) if they have already a lot of 1ghz think how many (in short supply) of faster speeds they have now.
<strong>One thing that is certain is that there is no G5. Think about it. If a 8500 series chip was anywhere close to being made for the Mac - why would Apple even consider calling the Apollo (on .13 µM) with DDR a G5? Because there is no real G5. Yet. The G5 will come after the G4 has run its course and that means moving to a .13 µM size with SOI. That will come this summer with the next Apple chip set to come in 2003. If we are lucky. I love Apple, but really, Apple does not lead in the Hardware side anymore. Those days are over. They are now about the computer being more than a computer. In that arena - things like processor speed can get lost.</strong><hr></blockquote>
how is that certain? because some dumb (really dumb) rumor site said that apple thought about naming the G4 Apollo G5?
[QB]No, the 7400 never made it past 500 MHz. The 7410 was used for 466 and 533 MHz, and the 667 and 733 MHz chips were 7450s.
QB]<hr></blockquote>
Well the 7400 and 7410 were pretty much the same design -- the significant changes came with the 7450, which started at 667 (thanks for the correction). We should see it reach at least 1.25 GHz, possibly higher.
<strong>One thing that is certain is that there is no G5. Think about it. If a 8500 series chip was anywhere close to being made for the Mac - why would Apple even consider calling the Apollo (on .13 µM) with DDR a G5? Because there is no real G5. Yet. The G5 will come after the G4 has run its course and that means moving to a .13 µM size with SOI. That will come this summer with the next Apple chip set to come in 2003. If we are lucky. I love Apple, but really, Apple does not lead in the Hardware side anymore. Those days are over. They are now about the computer being more than a computer. In that arena - things like processor speed can get lost.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Why do G5 nonbelievers insist on ignoring the PowerBook? Hello! The specs on the Apollo are perfect for the TiBook.
OK, the power consumption for the other processors are given for the lower speeds rather than the higher ones, but isn't 21.3 watts still rather high for a powerbook?
OK, the power consumption for the other processors are given for the lower speeds rather than the higher ones, but isn't 21.3 watts still rather high for a powerbook?</strong><hr></blockquote>
1.) there is a low power version, the 7445 at 733 and 800
2.) the next advancement will be a die shrink to .15 making 1Ghz and possibly higher speeds also more suitable for portables.
<strong>... The G5 will come after the G4 has run its course and that means moving to a .13 µM size with SOI. ...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Why? Apple moved their desktops to G4 long before the G3 had run its course. (Though it took a switch to IBM to find that course, but maybe history will repeat?)
<strong>the next advancement will be a die shrink to .15 making 1Ghz and possibly higher speeds also more suitable for portables.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Where did you get that? Everyone else seems to be skipping from .18 to .13. I've never seen anything suggesting they will use .15 (oh except MOSR).
And remember they have a "different" measuring scheme. .15 I believe = .18. Their roadmap says the G4 is at .15 now. I think that's causing confusion.
Where did you get that? Everyone else seems to be skipping from .18 to .13. I've never seen anything suggesting they will use .15 (oh except MOSR).
And remember they have a "different" measuring scheme. .15 I believe = .18. Their roadmap says the G4 is at .15 now. I think that's causing confusion.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't know. they seem to use a different standard than everyone else. I've heard that this one is .18 and the next will be .15
1.) there is a low power version, the 7445 at 733 and 800
2.) the next advancement will be a die shrink to .15 making 1Ghz and possibly higher speeds also more suitable for portables.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sure, I saw that too, but the main discussion was around the 7455.
The 7445 does have a rather low power consumption (about half that of the 7455), shame Apple aren't using it though...
I'd guess that jumping the TiBook to 733/800 will happen quite soon, but even with a die-shrink, I don't see GHz G4s in titanium clothes any time soon. (What were people saying a 15% improvement, so maybe 933?)
I'd go for TiBook 800 in Q1/Q2, bumped to 933 in Q2/Q3 with maybe a TiBook G5 in 2003?
(I'm guessing we'll see G5 at MWNY, around 1.4GHz, up to maybe 1.8 by MWSF, so the TiBook starts its G5 life at about 1.2GHz...)
This leaves the 7455 and 7460 for the iMac. (In the same way the iMac used G3s that were never used in the B&W G3.)
Sure, I saw that too, but the main discussion was around the 7455.
The 7445 does have a rather low power consumption (about half that of the 7455), shame Apple aren't using it though...
I'd guess that jumping the TiBook to 733/800 will happen quite soon, but even with a die-shrink, I don't see GHz G4s in titanium clothes any time soon. (What were people saying a 15% improvement, so maybe 933?)
I'd go for TiBook 800 in Q1/Q2, bumped to 933 in Q2/Q3 with maybe a TiBook G5 in 2003?
(I'm guessing we'll see G5 at MWNY, around 1.4GHz, up to maybe 1.8 by MWSF, so the TiBook starts its G5 life at about 1.2GHz...)
This leaves the 7455 and 7460 for the iMac. (In the same way the iMac used G3s that were never used in the B&W G3.)
Nothing more than idle speculation, of course... </strong><hr></blockquote>
I want a G5 TiBook. Hopefully they'll be out by August 2003, so I can get one going into my junior year at CMU.
<strong>The 7445 does have a rather low power consumption (about half that of the 7455), shame Apple aren't using it though...</strong><hr></blockquote>
I suspect we will see an "apollo" G4 fabbed on a 0.13 µm process after this current 7455 Apollo runs it's course. However, the 0.13 µm Apollo probably won't make it into Powermacs. I think Apollo is actually destined for the iMacs and laptops, and the G5 will be the high-end desktop CPU.
Something like this: G5 between MWNY and MWSF.
If the G5 debutes at MWNY, then the next generation 0.13µm Apollo will show up in iMacs and Titaniums later this year.
If the G5 doesn't make it into Powermacs until MWSF, then the 0.13 Apollo will debut in Powermacs at MWNY, with a new ddr based mobo and a 266 MHz system bus.
As for second generation Apollo speeds, I think Moto will be able to scale it up to 1.25 GHz maximum, no higher. Shrinking the process to 0.13 µm will at most boost performance by 25%, at least that's according to the sources I've read. It is unrealistic to expect a 1.4 GHz G4 based on Apollo this year.
The interesting thing about Apollo is that it could potentially serve to help Motorola perfect their 0.13 µm fab in preparation for G5 production. It is best to change only one thing at a time when working up a new fab (this applies to any new technique in sciences, really). So initially Moto added SOI and changed little else for the Apollo (same process, same G4 architecture). Theoretically it would be far easier for Motorola to shrink a known, tested architecture, the G4, to the 0.13 process first. Once the 0.13 µm fab is perfected using the G4 architecture, Moto would then begin producing the new G5 architecture on the established 0.13 µm process.
The problem with this scenario is that it doesn't fit with the rumors of G5 test mules being seeded to developers, or with a timetable of introducing the G5 at MWNY, but it does fit with G5s being introduced at MWSF. This would give Moto time to move the Apollo to the 0.13 µm fab, ship the chip for MWNY, and then gear up production of G5s.
Ahh, but before total despair, there is a wild card thrown into this mix: AMD. AMD supposedly traded their fab expertise to Moto in exchange for the SOI technology. If Moto has already implemented SOI, then is it safe to assume that a shrunken fab is not far away? Could AMD have fulfilled their end of the deal by helping Moto not with moving the G4 to 0.13 µm, but the G5? I hope so.
End of long, rambling post filled with me spewing on stuff I don't know very well. If you got this far, then your patience is a great virtue.
<strong>I suspect we will see an "apollo" G4 fabbed on a 0.13 µm process after this current 7455 Apollo runs it's course. However, the 0.13 µm Apollo probably won't make it into Powermacs. I think Apollo is actually destined for the iMacs and laptops, and the G5 will be the high-end desktop CPU.</strong><hr></blockquote>
JD and I seem to be the only people that believe this. <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
the only thing we know for sure concerning the future of the PPC roadmap is that the next G4 will be made upon 0,15 micron process.
This information was revealed by an official from Motorola. The same guy explains also he won't give any information that can disturb the publicity of a very important consumer like Apple. so we can consider that Apple was ok to say that we might see this year an another upclocking of the G4. It can also means that by this way Apple want to say that the G5 is not for now.
considering the migration of 0,18 micron to 0,15 micron a speed of 1,4 ghz does not seem so stupid. But i doubt we will see a new mobo : the 7455 has the same pins than the 7450 . If they want to release a new mobo , the chip may change of pin package to implement new technology.
I don't know where this guy got his info, but it's just guesses set up in a nice html table. MPX would have to be overhauled to support a DDR interface. The best we could hope for from the MPX protocol is a higher speed version (max 200-250MHz) or move to 128bit. With 200-250MHz system bus (SDR) I'm afraid the RAM slots would have to be moved on the daughtercard to reduce the interference and trace lengths. It's not hard to imagine a senario like that though. But a move to 128bit maxbus goes contrary to industry trends (faster bus; lower bit width) and you would have to increase the number of pinouts not only on the CPU itself but also the processor card slot, unless of course you put the DIMM slots on the daughtercard.
Comments
<strong>One thing that is certain is that there is no G5. Think about it. If a 8500 series chip was anywhere close to being made for the Mac - why would Apple even consider calling the Apollo (on .13 µM) with DDR a G5? Because there is no real G5. Yet. The G5 will come after the G4 has run its course and that means moving to a .13 µM size with SOI. That will come this summer with the next Apple chip set to come in 2003. If we are lucky. I love Apple, but really, Apple does not lead in the Hardware side anymore. Those days are over. They are now about the computer being more than a computer. In that arena - things like processor speed can get lost.</strong><hr></blockquote>
how is that certain? because some dumb (really dumb) rumor site said that apple thought about naming the G4 Apollo G5?
yea, that makes it certain alright
[QB]No, the 7400 never made it past 500 MHz. The 7410 was used for 466 and 533 MHz, and the 667 and 733 MHz chips were 7450s.
QB]<hr></blockquote>
Well the 7400 and 7410 were pretty much the same design -- the significant changes came with the 7450, which started at 667 (thanks for the correction). We should see it reach at least 1.25 GHz, possibly higher.
<strong>One thing that is certain is that there is no G5. Think about it. If a 8500 series chip was anywhere close to being made for the Mac - why would Apple even consider calling the Apollo (on .13 µM) with DDR a G5? Because there is no real G5. Yet. The G5 will come after the G4 has run its course and that means moving to a .13 µM size with SOI. That will come this summer with the next Apple chip set to come in 2003. If we are lucky. I love Apple, but really, Apple does not lead in the Hardware side anymore. Those days are over. They are now about the computer being more than a computer. In that arena - things like processor speed can get lost.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Why do G5 nonbelievers insist on ignoring the PowerBook? Hello! The specs on the Apollo are perfect for the TiBook.
<strong>
Why do G5 nonbelievers insist on ignoring the PowerBook? Hello! The specs on the Apollo are perfect for the TiBook.</strong><hr></blockquote>
According to <a href="http://e-www.motorola.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MPC7455&nodeId=03M9430304504 67M98653" target="_blank">this page</a> the MPC7455 burns over 20 watts at 1GHz.
This is much higher than <a href="http://e-www.motorola.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MPC7455&nodeId=03M9430304504 67M98653" target="_blank">any other</a> G4 chip.
OK, the power consumption for the other processors are given for the lower speeds rather than the higher ones, but isn't 21.3 watts still rather high for a powerbook?
<strong>
According to <a href="http://e-www.motorola.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MPC7455&nodeId=03M9430304504 67M98653" target="_blank">this page</a> the MPC7455 burns over 20 watts at 1GHz.
This is much higher than <a href="http://e-www.motorola.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MPC7455&nodeId=03M9430304504 67M98653" target="_blank">any other</a> G4 chip.
OK, the power consumption for the other processors are given for the lower speeds rather than the higher ones, but isn't 21.3 watts still rather high for a powerbook?</strong><hr></blockquote>
1.) there is a low power version, the 7445 at 733 and 800
2.) the next advancement will be a die shrink to .15 making 1Ghz and possibly higher speeds also more suitable for portables.
<strong>... The G5 will come after the G4 has run its course and that means moving to a .13 µM size with SOI. ...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Why? Apple moved their desktops to G4 long before the G3 had run its course. (Though it took a switch to IBM to find that course, but maybe history will repeat?)
<strong>the next advancement will be a die shrink to .15 making 1Ghz and possibly higher speeds also more suitable for portables.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Where did you get that? Everyone else seems to be skipping from .18 to .13. I've never seen anything suggesting they will use .15 (oh except MOSR).
And remember they have a "different" measuring scheme. .15 I believe = .18. Their roadmap says the G4 is at .15 now. I think that's causing confusion.
<strong>
Where did you get that? Everyone else seems to be skipping from .18 to .13. I've never seen anything suggesting they will use .15 (oh except MOSR).
And remember they have a "different" measuring scheme. .15 I believe = .18. Their roadmap says the G4 is at .15 now. I think that's causing confusion.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't know. they seem to use a different standard than everyone else. I've heard that this one is .18 and the next will be .15
I guess it could be .13
<strong>
1.) there is a low power version, the 7445 at 733 and 800
2.) the next advancement will be a die shrink to .15 making 1Ghz and possibly higher speeds also more suitable for portables.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sure, I saw that too, but the main discussion was around the 7455.
The 7445 does have a rather low power consumption (about half that of the 7455), shame Apple aren't using it though...
I'd guess that jumping the TiBook to 733/800 will happen quite soon, but even with a die-shrink, I don't see GHz G4s in titanium clothes any time soon. (What were people saying a 15% improvement, so maybe 933?)
I'd go for TiBook 800 in Q1/Q2, bumped to 933 in Q2/Q3 with maybe a TiBook G5 in 2003?
(I'm guessing we'll see G5 at MWNY, around 1.4GHz, up to maybe 1.8 by MWSF, so the TiBook starts its G5 life at about 1.2GHz...)
This leaves the 7455 and 7460 for the iMac. (In the same way the iMac used G3s that were never used in the B&W G3.)
Nothing more than idle speculation, of course...
<strong>
Sure, I saw that too, but the main discussion was around the 7455.
The 7445 does have a rather low power consumption (about half that of the 7455), shame Apple aren't using it though...
I'd guess that jumping the TiBook to 733/800 will happen quite soon, but even with a die-shrink, I don't see GHz G4s in titanium clothes any time soon. (What were people saying a 15% improvement, so maybe 933?)
I'd go for TiBook 800 in Q1/Q2, bumped to 933 in Q2/Q3 with maybe a TiBook G5 in 2003?
(I'm guessing we'll see G5 at MWNY, around 1.4GHz, up to maybe 1.8 by MWSF, so the TiBook starts its G5 life at about 1.2GHz...)
This leaves the 7455 and 7460 for the iMac. (In the same way the iMac used G3s that were never used in the B&W G3.)
Nothing more than idle speculation, of course...
I want a G5 TiBook. Hopefully they'll be out by August 2003, so I can get one going into my junior year at CMU.
<strong>The 7445 does have a rather low power consumption (about half that of the 7455), shame Apple aren't using it though...</strong><hr></blockquote>
They can't use it. It's only sampling now.
Something like this: G5 between MWNY and MWSF.
If the G5 debutes at MWNY, then the next generation 0.13µm Apollo will show up in iMacs and Titaniums later this year.
If the G5 doesn't make it into Powermacs until MWSF, then the 0.13 Apollo will debut in Powermacs at MWNY, with a new ddr based mobo and a 266 MHz system bus.
As for second generation Apollo speeds, I think Moto will be able to scale it up to 1.25 GHz maximum, no higher. Shrinking the process to 0.13 µm will at most boost performance by 25%, at least that's according to the sources I've read. It is unrealistic to expect a 1.4 GHz G4 based on Apollo this year.
The interesting thing about Apollo is that it could potentially serve to help Motorola perfect their 0.13 µm fab in preparation for G5 production. It is best to change only one thing at a time when working up a new fab (this applies to any new technique in sciences, really). So initially Moto added SOI and changed little else for the Apollo (same process, same G4 architecture). Theoretically it would be far easier for Motorola to shrink a known, tested architecture, the G4, to the 0.13 process first. Once the 0.13 µm fab is perfected using the G4 architecture, Moto would then begin producing the new G5 architecture on the established 0.13 µm process.
The problem with this scenario is that it doesn't fit with the rumors of G5 test mules being seeded to developers, or with a timetable of introducing the G5 at MWNY, but it does fit with G5s being introduced at MWSF. This would give Moto time to move the Apollo to the 0.13 µm fab, ship the chip for MWNY, and then gear up production of G5s.
Ahh, but before total despair, there is a wild card thrown into this mix: AMD. AMD supposedly traded their fab expertise to Moto in exchange for the SOI technology. If Moto has already implemented SOI, then is it safe to assume that a shrunken fab is not far away? Could AMD have fulfilled their end of the deal by helping Moto not with moving the G4 to 0.13 µm, but the G5? I hope so.
End of long, rambling post filled with me spewing on stuff I don't know very well. If you got this far, then your patience is a great virtue.
<strong>I suspect we will see an "apollo" G4 fabbed on a 0.13 µm process after this current 7455 Apollo runs it's course. However, the 0.13 µm Apollo probably won't make it into Powermacs. I think Apollo is actually destined for the iMacs and laptops, and the G5 will be the high-end desktop CPU.</strong><hr></blockquote>
JD and I seem to be the only people that believe this. <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
This information was revealed by an official from Motorola. The same guy explains also he won't give any information that can disturb the publicity of a very important consumer like Apple. so we can consider that Apple was ok to say that we might see this year an another upclocking of the G4. It can also means that by this way Apple want to say that the G5 is not for now.
considering the migration of 0,18 micron to 0,15 micron a speed of 1,4 ghz does not seem so stupid. But i doubt we will see a new mobo : the 7455 has the same pins than the 7450 . If they want to release a new mobo , the chip may change of pin package to implement new technology.
But the good news is that they predict it will incorporate a faster front side bus - 266Mz(133 X 2).
<a href="http://www.bayarea.net/~kins/AboutMe/CPUs.html"; target="_blank">http://www.bayarea.net/~kins/AboutMe/CPUs.html</a>;
<strong>Geek.com seems to think the MPC7460 will continue using the 0.18µm process.
But the good news is that they predict it will incorporate a faster front side bus - 266Mz(133 X 2).
</strong><hr></blockquote>
That guy also thinks (makes up?) that the 7460 will not only feature DDR, but will also sport 128 bit bus width.
Not only would this mean the bandwidth would be quadrupled from the current one, but it's also absolutely, completely, uttely unlikely.
Bye,
RazzFazz
[ 02-05-2002: Message edited by: RazzFazz ]</p>