IDC miscounts Macs again, awards Apple fifth place in global PC sales one year too late

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  • Reply 21 of 44
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Alfiejr View Post

     



    the point is: IDC is full of sh*t.




    they all (Gartner, Forrester, Frost and Sullivan et al) are.

     

    The craziness is that these firms are trying to milk money out of IT and businesses who can't do their own assessment of what's right for them, so they defer the decision to someone else ("Hey, Gartner told us that Windows Phone would be the #2 selling phone OS by 2015, that's why we spent $2M in supporting it, not because our CTO owns 10,000 shares of MS, and gets free tickets  to Mariners games from the MS sales people... no that's not the reason we deadsunk the money and told you that the iPad was a passing fad, proprietary and insecure, because it didn't play well with our Blackberry Enterprise Server....yeah, that's the ticket!).

  • Reply 22 of 44
    Originally Posted by Alfiejr View Post

    the point is: IDC is full of sh*t.

     

    IDC? I Don’t Care.

  • Reply 23 of 44
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 23,467member
    melgross wrote: »
    Considering your posting history, that would be a negative.

    :rolleyes:.The big grin at the end combined with the comment I replied to shouldl'a have made the intent kinda obvious.

    I suspect you were feeling a little defensive from an earlier post perhaps? I wasn't saying you were wrong about your comment that 33% of all desktop/laptop computer sales here in the US are Mac, just that I've never come across that claim elsewhere. Don't find anything when searching either. If if was just something you thought you remembered that's OK, but if you actually have a reference I'd like reading it. I don't mind finding my opinion is incorrect when presented with facts that disprove it.
  • Reply 24 of 44
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by timgriff84 View Post

     

    I sometimes do a lot of work on my phone, I wouldn't suggest they start including phones in the figures.

     

    Isn't that a good reason to keep them separate. If they were included would there ever have been reports to suggest the PC market had been in decline due to the success of tablets. It would just be that the PC market was booming due to people buying multiple form factors.

     

    Until you can walk into an average offers and see 10 - 20% of people working solely on a tablet rather than the current Desktop / Laptop split I'd consider them a different market.


    deferring the inevitable.  That's like saying the iPhone wasn't a Smartphone until BlackBerry like phones were 80% of the market.

     

    What is a general purpose computer

    - Allows you to create content 

    - Allows you connectivity to your corporate, home and inter nets

    - Allows you to run open protocols (HTML, TCP/IP, etc)

    - can operate independent of the network (it's not a 'terminal')

    - Can store stuff

    - can be updated and extended with software and data as you desire/afford/need

     

    The critical boundary condition, I think most people trip over - 

    - Can be 'programmed' by the user permanently

    The reason this is a border requirement is that in most businesses, they DON'T want the end user to change or program the device.

    And what is a cell macro in Numbers?, an equation in Mathematica,   Isn't that programming?

     

    The fact you can't write and compile a flash object or a Java C# routine on a iPad is what a lot of 'techies' poo-poo.

     

    The other boundary condition is

    - No multi-user controls (no AuthN/AuthZ , File Permissions etc.)

    Again, 'most' people want a 'personal' computer.  Using this a differentiator is applying a business requirement (This is a 'professional computer' (PC) managed by 'us', and we grant access to 'them'), that is a subset of the global market requirement (I need something for ME)

     

    Anything else?

     

    Defining a computer by a particular peripheral or data/entry method is silly.

  • Reply 25 of 44
    roakeroake Posts: 790member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by pmz View Post

     

    Considering iPad purchases REPLACE the purchase of a PC Mac or ShitBook for a lot of people, to not include them is psychotically disingenuous, and a fraudulent attempt to pretend that Apple hasn't taken over and made everything else irrelevant.

     




    I don't think those words mean what you think they mean.

  • Reply 26 of 44
    The last chart really jumps out of the best page screaming why!!??
    Why can't Apple make an upgrade able computer? How many people who care about gaming as a use case would love be to have just one PCI slot to add a video card to! Look at the lack of "truck" sales in that chart. Apple needs another computer product so they can compete in the broader pc desktop class pc's. The whacko tosh community would shrink by half, and games would finally get first class treatment on macs. I left the wacko tosh because I got a laugh from it. Hackintosh is not a word according to Apple. Go figure.

    That pretty much sums up Apples attitude. Apples market share is no longer a joke looking for a setup. They can compete in this area. Do it!!
  • Reply 27 of 44
    jungmarkjungmark Posts: 6,924member
    maestro64 wrote: »
    Okay I am not making excuses for IDC, however I believe they are justifying not including ipads in PC sales since Apple themselves do not consider ipads a computer but a consumer electronic product. All the other companies selling tables call themselves a computer company. These idiot on the research company follow these strict definitions.

    This all does not matter since IDC continue to come out with numbers prior to any company reporting their numbers. They just pulling number out of the air anyway.

    That's the problem. They arbitrarily define the category to fit their agenda.
  • Reply 28 of 44
    calicali Posts: 3,494member
    i don't think tablets should be included. Just like notebooks aren't included with desktops.

    I believe the problem is firms like IDC include android and surface tablets but exclude iPads.
  • Reply 29 of 44
    @gatorguy

    "But iPads don't come with keyboards"

    Umm, yes it does. Just because it is a software keyboard doesn't mean there isn't one. Heck, both the Mac Pro and the mini DON'T come with keyboards as standard equipment. Only the iMac comes standard with a keyboard and mouse. Go look on the Apple Store yourself! Besides, you can buy a bluetooth keyboard for an iPad, so what's the beef?
  • Reply 30 of 44
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post





    image.The big grin at the end combined with the comment I replied shouldl'a have made the intent kinda obvious.



    I suspect you were feeling a little defensive from an earlier post perhaps? I wasn't saying you were wrong about your comment that 33% of all desktop/laptop computer sales here in the US are Mac, just that I've never come across that claim elsewhere. Don't find anything when searching either. If if was just something you thought you remembered that's OK, but if you actually have a reference I'd like reading it. I don't mind finding my opinion is incorrect when presented with facts that disprove it.

     

    Then you're admitting to being a troll? That's what it sounds like to me.

  • Reply 31 of 44
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 23,467member
    dagger01 wrote: »
    Then you're admitting to being a troll? That's what it sounds like to me.

    It's not a great introduction to jump in with name-calling. :no: There's already enough egregious trolling here (even one member doing it is one too many) and so no need for you to do the same. Polite discussion will always be welcomed tho.

    If you have a good contribution to make like an interesting experience or viewpoint , or a new way of looking at things then please post away. Love to read new things. Insulting long-term members doesn't add anything and so it's not a good way to get attention. .
  • Reply 32 of 44
    Dan_DilgerDan_Dilger Posts: 1,583member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by melgross View Post



    This is nothing new. I've been stating this for years, here, and many other places.



    But one reason for the changed numbers is that both Gartner and IDC present estimates. They don't wait until all the manufacturers report their quarters, and, as we see, their estimates are off. The discrepancy between their reports show that. But a year later, they have all of the correct numbers. The chart from last year that they use now contains those numbers. DED is often a bit nuts about what he says, and looks for things that aren't always there. He seems to be trying to point out a conspiracy that doesn't exist. Let's remember that he is the ultimate fanboy. I've argued with him more than a few times about major errors in his thinking.



    They can't BS the actual numbers, after they come out.cwhat they do, however, is BS some of their future sales estimates to favor their clients, and by that, hopefully give a false confidence which could help faltering sales. That hasn't seems to work.



    That's a lot of personal character assassination for a content moderator to be throwing out without offering anything to back it up.

     

    The headline says IDC miscounted Mac numbers, and the story shows how they did last year too. It's not "a bit nuts," not a "conspiracy that doesn't exist" and no "major errors in thinking."

  • Reply 33 of 44
    Dan_DilgerDan_Dilger Posts: 1,583member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by timgriff84 View Post

     

    Not entirely sure what the point of this is. According to those figures they also lowballed Lenovo and HP by an even bigger margin.

     

    Apple was out by 200 thousand, Lenovo by 1571 thousand and 737 thousand. Compared to those 2 Apple being out by 200 thousand is actually quite close.

     

    All it really shows is estimates and basically just that and estimate and if 2 companies are close they could switch position.

     

    The stuff about iPads not being counted is also just stupid. People think of them as different thing, people talk about them replacing PC's ergo they arnt a PC. So if you want figures comparing PC's there's not much point including them.


     

    No, You are not reading the numbers correctly. 



    IDC didn't report any global estimate for Apple last year because it "wasn't in the top five" according to IDC. IDC didn't have an estimate for Apple off "by 200 thousand." That's the error in the final, retroactive number IDC reported for Q3 2013 AFTER APPLE REPORTED ITS ACTUAL NUMBERS. IDC reports lower numbers than Apple actually sells. < This is sort of an important point.

     

    The Q3 2013 number IDC originally esitmated for Lenovo was 14.136M, which it revised down to 14.130M. That's a minor difference of 6k, not "1571 thousand." Again, that's IDC's estimate, as Lenovo doesn't report its PC sales at all. That's why Gartner and IDC invent different numbers. Just like tablets, nobody actually has to report anything about their actual sales. < This is also sort of an important point.

     

    Last quarter, IDC and Gartner made major headlines claiming that Mac sales were down while PCs were up. They completely lied. Nobody in the media even checked their numbers until AI reported this. 

     

    This year, IDC is saying Apple is in the top five for the first time ever, as if this is a surprise. But by its own numbers, it lied about this a year ago. 

     

    Also, IDC and Gartner aren't failing to count iPads because "people think of them as different things," otherwise they wouldn't also be counting hybrid tablets, Windows tablets, Windows netbooks, Google netbooks and everything else that ships with a Windows license while excluding the very thing that has been quite obviously destroying PC growth since it arrived. 

     

    Check your facts before expressing your opinions about how facts don't matter. 

  • Reply 34 of 44
    pscooter63pscooter63 Posts: 1,064member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post





    Do realize my post about the lack of a keyboard was meant as a joke. image

     

    Yep, you got me.  ;)

  • Reply 35 of 44
    timgriff84 wrote: »
    Not entirely sure what the point of this is. According to those figures they also lowballed Lenovo and HP by an even bigger margin.

    Apple was out by 200 thousand, Lenovo by 1571 thousand and 737 thousand. Compared to those 2 Apple being out by 200 thousand is actually quite close.

    All it really shows is estimates and basically just that and estimate and if 2 companies are close they could switch position.

    The stuff about iPads not being counted is also just stupid. People think of them as different thing, people talk about them replacing PC's ergo they arnt a PC. So if you want figures comparing PC's there's not much point including them.

    Sorry, you don't seem to be reading the chart correctly. Lenovo was over estimated by 6,000 at 14,136,000 last year (2013) and the number adjusted downward by that 6,000 to 14,130,000 units when they reported the 2014 numbers, in the comparison column for the Year over year ago 2013 data column. Similarly, HP was low balled by 24,000 in 2013 (13,992,000) and adjusted UPWARD by that 24,000 units (14,016,000) as the new 2013 figure. Conversely, IDC had to have placed Apple way below ASUS's 4,208,000 units in its original 2013 estimate, but then when Apple came in with accurate figures that were some ~370,000 units greater at 5,577,000, they quietly bumped ASUS off the top five And replaced ASUS with Apple. . . but DID NOT RELEASE ANY INFORMATION ABOUT THE MAJOR CHANGE IN THEIR DATA!
  • Reply 36 of 44
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Corrections View Post

     

     

    No, You are not reading the numbers correctly. 

     

     


    Your right, I thought as the article was talking about how the figures were revised the two charts were the before and after rather than this year and last year. So my figures were wrong.

     

    Either way though the point still remains there reporting estimates which are ultimately estimates. Later when more data is learned they update the figures. Mac sales were updated to be 4.577 million and Apple say they were 4.6 million. I don't know what decimal place apple reports there figures at but on the basis it doesn't say 4.601 if it truly was 4.577 million I'd assume Apple would report it as 4.6 million.

     

    I don't think there's any conspiracy in it, all the figures changed. There not reporting market share changes based on the original estimates, they've updated all the figures as they get more accurate info. Just proves estimates aren't ever going to be 100% accurate.

  • Reply 37 of 44

    What does IDC stand for? Idiot Dip-sh!t-Cretins?

  • Reply 38 of 44
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,325member
    gatorguy wrote: »
    :rolleyes:.The big grin at the end combined with the comment I replied to shouldl'a have made the intent kinda obvious.

    I suspect you were feeling a little defensive from an earlier post perhaps? I wasn't saying you were wrong about your comment that 33% of all desktop/laptop computer sales here in the US are Mac, just that I've never come across that claim elsewhere. Don't find anything when searching either. If if was just something you thought you remembered that's OK, but if you actually have a reference I'd like reading it. I don't mind finding my opinion is incorrect when presented with facts that disprove it.

    I never feel defensive, as I have no need to. Yes, Cook made that statement. I do remember it. He either made it during a financial call, or at one of the "D" conferences, I don't remember exactly, because it was a good year ago, and I didn't expect to need it.

    But, sorry, your comment certainly did seem to be real, not funny, nor sarcastice. My comment to that does reflect your posting history, as I'm sure everyone who has been here for a while can attest to.

    We see, many times, that a poster will make some negative comment, and after being criticized,or pointed out for it, will then claim that it wasn't serious. But, really, we have no way to know that.
  • Reply 39 of 44
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,325member

    That's a lot of personal character assassination for a content moderator to be throwing out without offering anything to back it up.

    The headline says IDC miscounted Mac numbers, and the story shows how they did last year too. It's not "a bit nuts," not a "conspiracy that doesn't exist" and no "major errors in thinking."

    What? Are you serious? Character assassination? We're talking about companies that have, on their sites, policy statements that say exactly what I just stated. They state that their purpose is to advance the interests of their clients. That's what we should expect. You think I'm the only one saying this?

    And don't throw in any nonsense about mods. Being a mod has nothing to do with anything. If you have a complaint about a writer on this site, thinking that they, as a writer, should be more careful, then that's one thing. But that's not my job. I give my opinions just like everyone else, as is my right.

    My job is to keep things from getting out of hand, like a traffic cop, and to try to get rid of spam before it becomes a problem.
  • Reply 40 of 44
    nhtnht Posts: 4,522member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Corrections View Post

     

    That's a lot of personal character assassination for a content moderator to be throwing out without offering anything to back it up.


     

    Lol…if anything his characterization of you is hilariously mild.

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