The only trouble is, acceptance of AMEX in Europe and Asia can be hit-or-miss.
I have never been able to figure out the benefit of having an Amex card, and as such have never signed up for one. They are accepted in less places because of the higher fees so why would I want one? Do they have significantly better point system over banks fighting against innumerable MC/Visa cards for lower rates and higher points?
Sure, I have a routine, too, but I do change my routine as needed to make my life more efficient. For starters, i rarely ever carry cash with me anymore. I also don't have opted out of paper bills and don't write checks. I used to do all those things but I found a more efficient way of handling that, which includes an entire calendar category specifically with monthly, biannually, or yearly reminders for payments since I no longer have a bill to look at.
They seemed to indicate to me that you were asking why anyone would need a wallet for anything,…
I've always held the position that it will be a supplementary solution, like cards being held in a wallet with cash. I'll be using it right away and in many ways i already do with my Starbucks card nearly every morning as part of my routine.
…since belt clips, […] stuff taped to vests...
:???:
…velcro solutions,…
I was talking about a multitiered security precaution when I traveled extensively on my own through many countries, usually not speaking the language. Fortune favours the prepared.
…etc could be the solution to those things that ApplePay does not deal with.
Again, ?Pay is just the evolution of payments. It adds security and convenience. It will not cause plastic cards to disappear just as plastic cards didn't cause cash to disappear, but it's still a paradigm shift.
I remember people suggesting Apple could become a bank. I don't think they want to be a bank so I don't see that as a likely scenario.
Financially they could. Consider how American Express got their start in the 19th century to issuing a plastic card in the mid-20th century. But clearly they don't want to an I think this solution is much, much better for them. Trying to be like most of their competitors who think every thing should be a razor blade with no razor handles just isn't a viable business model in most cases. Apple is clear their focus is on HW sales.
I wish you'd focus on the larger point instead on nitpicking over guesstimates. That point again, in case you missed it, was: by the time of ApplePay intro (which is the next week or two), Apple may not have a sufficiently large user base with the 6/6+ for every retailer to justify making the hardware investment. The fact that ApplePay is currently US-only makes this even more salient.
1) I'm usually posting on the go so I usually don't have the luxury, time, or desire to go back through multiple comments to find some deeper point. This means I oft respond to posts as they are stated.
2) I'm still not getting what a week or two has to do with anything. This is going to take awhile, but from what I can tell it looks like Apple will have more NFC-capable devices on the market in the US than all other vendors combined by the end of the year. Combine that with the multinationals and banks behind it along with major companies that already support NFC and I see no reason to say that ?Pay is off to a better start before it's even launched than any other service or product in Apple's history.
3) Give it 3 years.
One year.
The secret sauce is the market strategy (and convenience and privacy and security). The timing is essential to the release of ?Pay.
In addition, ?Pay offers security that is superior to card-present -- because it validates (not identifies) the buyer.
That should result in lower risk/costs/fees to the bank, the cc processor, the merchant and, ultimately the customer.
A bank or a merchant will have access to several methods of processing cc transactions at different risks/fees. Hypothetically (using whole numbers for comparison and combining risk costs with fees), say:
00% risk 1% costs -- ?Pay
05% risk 2% costs -- NFC Card Present + separate ID verification
10% risk 4% costs -- NFC Card Present
15% risk 5% costs -- Smart Card Wave & Pin (limits on # of transactions and transaction amount
25% risk 9% costs -- Swipe and Sign
Which option will the banks and merchants favor -- Hint: Follow the money!
How will banks and merchants incentivize the customer -- Hint: Offer him money!
Again, these amounts are hypothetical -- but it of advantage for the bank, processor, merchant to use ?Pay -- as soon and as often as possible.
Financially they could. Consider how American Express got their start in the 19th century to issuing a plastic card in the mid-20th century. But clearly they don't want to an I think this solution is much, much better for them. Trying to be like most of their competitors who think every thing should be a razor blade with no razor handles just isn't a viable business model in most cases. Apple is clear their focus is on HW sales.
I believe many people forget just how much cachet and clout Apple has.
Apple is the modern day Sears. Not the Sears we know today but the Sears of yesteryear. The Sears that started numerous highly successful ventures including; Allstate, Discover Card, National Tire Warehouse and Orchard Supply Hardware.
Apple could easily create their own bank and issue their own credit cards. I do not believe they should or would at this time, merely that they could.
I have never been able to figure out the benefit of having an Amex card, and as such have never signed up for one. They are accepted in less places because of the higher fees so why would I want one? Do they have significantly better point system over banks fighting against innumerable MC/Visa cards for lower rates and higher points?
As I mentioned earlier it is about the services. If you are in a foreign country and you have problems they treat you like royalty. They will send a car, an ambulance, a private jet, whatever it takes.
* A merchant with an iTunes account who uses iTunes/?Pay to accept from charges from their customers.
I remember people suggesting Apple could become a bank. I don't think they want to be a bank so I don't see that as a likely scenario.
But Apple would not need to become a bank -- just pass through ?Pay transactions to the bank ... instead of issuing iTunes cc transaction to the bank as it does now (for which it is charged a fee -- same as other merchants).
As I mentioned earlier it is about the services. If you are in a foreign country and you have problems they treat you like royalty. They will send a car, an ambulance, a private jet, whatever it takes.
1) I still don't understand. They "treat you like royalty" because of a piece of plastic that they are more likely not to be able to take but they won't "treat you like royalty" if you have a payment system that is accepted in more places? In my experience how you're treated in terms of service depends on your ability and willingness to pay, nothing else.
2) What problems would I have? The only problem I can see is having an Amex card that isn't accepted when I need to have a MC or Visa.
But Apple would not need to become a bank -- just pass through ?Pay transactions to the bank ... instead of issuing iTunes cc transaction to the bank as it does now (for which it is charged a fee -- same as other merchants).
No there is no protocol for adding money to a credit card unless it is a refund. A credit card cannot accept payments. Eventually I see Apple getting rid of all those credit cards and only accepting ?Pay, I definitely do not see them offering merchant accounts except in the case of App Store developers.
In addition, ?Pay offers security that is superior to card-present -- because it validates (not identifies) the buyer.
That should result in lower risk/costs/fees to the bank, the cc processor, the merchant and, ultimately the customer.
A bank or a merchant will have access to several methods of processing cc transactions at different risks/fees. Hypothetically (using whole numbers for comparison and combining risk costs with fees), say:
00% risk 1% costs -- ?Pay
05% risk 2% costs -- NFC Card Present + separate ID verification
10% risk 4% costs -- NFC Card Present
15% risk 5% costs -- Smart Card Wave & Pin (limits on # of transactions and transaction amount
25% risk 9% costs -- Swipe and Sign
Which option will the banks and merchants favor -- Hint: Follow the money!
How will banks and merchants incentivize the customer -- Hint: Offer him money!
Again, these amounts are hypothetical -- but it of advantage for the bank, processor, merchant to use ?Pay -- as soon and as often as possible.
I agree although I believe your estimates of risk are wildly inaccurate though I imagine you aren't arguing specifics merely the importance of security. Please note I did highlight privacy and security as key in addition to the market strategy. I will state emphatically that Apple would not have been successful with the exact same implementation and features with ?Pay three years ago. Three years ago, EMV lacked a tokenization specification, Passbook, Secure Element and TouchID didn't exist but more importantly three years ago there was no incentive for retailers to update point of sale terminals.
As I mentioned earlier it is about the services. If you are in a foreign country and you have problems they treat you like royalty. They will send a car, an ambulance, a private jet, whatever it takes.
I have my servants and staff for such trivialities.
1) I still don't understand. They "treat you like royalty" because of a piece of plastic that they are more likely not to be able to take but they won't "treat you like royalty" if you have a payment system that is accepted in more places? In my experience how you're treated in terms of service depends on your ability and willingness to pay, nothing else.
2) What problems would I have? The only problem I can see is having an Amex card that isn't accepted when I need to have a MC or Visa.
I have personal experience with an emergency abroad and they came to the rescue. If you don't want it, no problem. I won't leave home without it.
Financially they could. Consider how American Express got their start in the 19th century to issuing a plastic card in the mid-20th century. But clearly they don't want to an I think this solution is much, much better for them. Trying to be like most of their competitors who think every thing should be a razor blade with no razor handles just isn't a viable business model in most cases. Apple is clear their focus is on HW sales.
I believe many people forget just how much cachet and clout Apple has.
Apple is the modern day Sears. Not the Sears we know today but the Sears of yesteryear. The Sears that started numerous highly successful ventures including; Allstate, Discover Card, National Tire Warehouse and Orchard Supply Hardware.
Apple could easily create their own bank and issue their own credit cards. I do not believe they should or would at this time, merely that they could.
Ha!
In the last few days, we've seen in AI threads: Bo Dereck, Lil Abner Women, Sears catalog womens undergarment pages ...
Continuing that trend:
Here, beside his friend, is my OSH'By-Gosh Beaver ...
I use it in bed to prop up my iPad 4 at just the right angle (he has a stiff tail) -- while lying on my side in bed, head on a pillow ... Works great.
No there is no protocol for adding money to a credit card unless it is a refund. A credit card cannot accept payments. Eventually I see Apple getting rid of all those credit cards and only accepting ?Pay, I definitely do not see them offering merchant accounts except in the case of App Store developers.
Apple will not for the long, long foreseeable future go all in with only Apple Pay. They would miss out on a ton of sales. There are some people that will refuse to use NFC payments no matter how much better it is.
Apple will not for the long, long foreseeable future go all in with only Apple Pay. They would miss out on a ton of sales. There are some people that will refuse to use NFC payments no matter how much better it is.
Yeah maybe but you know there is going to be an online ?Pay too not just NFC. We don't know much about it yet but remember ?Pay is just a proxy for an actual credit card. I just think they would rather not be storing all those cards.
But Apple would not need to become a bank -- just pass through ?Pay transactions to the bank ... instead of issuing iTunes cc transaction to the bank as it does now (for which it is charged a fee -- same as other merchants).
No there is no protocol for adding money to a credit card unless it is a refund. A credit card cannot accept payments. Eventually I see Apple getting rid of all those credit cards and only accepting ?Pay, I definitely do not see them offering merchant accounts except in the case of App Store developers.
Yes there is a protocol for adding money to an iTunes account (admittedly not to a cc) -- by redeeming an iTunes Gift Card.
As Apple presented in the announcement, A [qualified] iTunes cc (currently AMEX, MC, Visa -- likely, soon Discover) can automatically be registered as an ?Pay credit card.
I don't know if you've ever had a merchant account with a bank -- it's similar to a big credit card (or used to be) for the merchant. All the cc transactions the merchant accepts (sales/returns) are processed against that account. Usually, the merchant backs up [guarantees] the total liquidity of that account with a commensurate amount in another account at the same bank -- in case the merchant accepts more credit cards, in a short time period, than can be cleared the bank (e.g. Black Friday long weekend).
If Apple were to offer the service, a savvy ?Pay bank and merchant, looking to make money, could use a merchant's iTunes account to accept transactions and pass them through to the merchant's merchant account at the bank.
I don't see much difference in this and what [supposedly] will happen to an individual's iTunes account once he chooses to authorize the card on file (with iTunes) as an ?Pay card. As I understand it, any subsequent iTunes transactions against that cc will be automatically transformed to ?Pay transactions with the bank.
As an example of a small merchant where this might make sense -- my wife had a small crafts business in Tucson 1997-2001. She had a $25,000 merchant account at our bank -- backed up by savings and CD accounts. The Shopping Cart / POST app (which I wrote) authorized online web transactions. And she used standard wipe and swipe or cc terminal authorization for card present transactions.
November 28th is the start of Black Friday Maddness -- the biggest shopping period in the US!
By Black Friday, the iPhone 6 will have been on sale in the US for 11 weeks!
I suspect that between 20-30 Million (2+ million per week) US customers will have access to ?Pay through iPhone 6 by Black Friday.
For a given retailer to get on board, within a week or two -- is insignificant. But I think that the success/failure (I assume overall success) usage of ?Pay will be widely reported -- and every bank, merchant, cc provider, [affluent] buyer will be paying attention.
I expect that ?Pay will hit the ground running and never look back ... leaving the laggards the choice: Jump on the wagon or get left in the dust!
Then, If the iPhone 6 can Hand Off ?Pay exchanges with a Safari/Yosemite browser -- many and large online purchases could be done securely while shopping at home.
Here are, yet, some other possibilities:
Apple announced that any iTunes credit cards (800 Million, at last count) registered with iTunes can be automatically registered for ?Pay.
What does that mean exactly???
Does it mean that anything I buy through the iTunes Store, App Store, Apple Online Store -- can now be bought through iTunes/?Pay.?
What if Apple allows purchase of iTunes Gift Cards from the iTunes Store/App Store (in addition to the current ability to purchase them from the Apple Online Store).?
What are the possibilities of expanding iTunes to be a quasi-merchant * for ?Pay?
* A merchant with an iTunes account who uses iTunes/?Pay to accept from charges from their customers.
What if the new iPads (or AppleTV) have NFC and an App to accept ?Pay transactions ... Anyone could begin accepting ?Pay transactions with an outlay of less than $500 ... $250? This includes Mon'N'Pop stores, Flea Market stalls, Garage Sales, Carnivals, Food trucks ...
Dont know if there is an nfc that can be adapted the the ipad already but if there is not i guess someone will come out with it. Maybe even apple. You know like the square thing to take cc but for apple pay making it much cheaper for those that already use ipad as PoS
In addition, ?Pay offers security that is superior to card-present -- because it validates (not identifies) the buyer.
That should result in lower risk/costs/fees to the bank, the cc processor, the merchant and, ultimately the customer.
A bank or a merchant will have access to several methods of processing cc transactions at different risks/fees. Hypothetically (using whole numbers for comparison and combining risk costs with fees), say:
00% risk 1% costs -- ?Pay
05% risk 2% costs -- NFC Card Present + separate ID verification
10% risk 4% costs -- NFC Card Present
15% risk 5% costs -- Smart Card Wave & Pin (limits on # of transactions and transaction amount
25% risk 9% costs -- Swipe and Sign
Which option will the banks and merchants favor -- Hint: Follow the money!
How will banks and merchants incentivize the customer -- Hint: Offer him money!
Again, these amounts are hypothetical -- but it of advantage for the bank, processor, merchant to use ?Pay -- as soon and as often as possible.
I agree although I believe your estimates of risk are wildly inaccurate though I imagine you aren't arguing specifics merely the importance of security. Please note I did highlight privacy and security as key in addition to the market strategy. I will state emphatically that Apple would not have been successful with the exact same implementation and features with ?Pay three years ago. Three years ago, EMV lacked a tokenization specification, Passbook, Secure Element and TouchID didn't exist but more importantly three years ago there was no incentive for retailers to update point of sale terminals.
I admit to the inaccuracies -- I am not involved in commerce any more, and have no current knowledge of the industry -- however, I do understand risk, its costs and motivation -- and as you suggest, I tried to highlight the importance of security and privacy and their relative advantage by an arbitrary number value.
I also agree with your other points -- the time is now!
Yes there is a protocol for adding money to an iTunes account (admittedly not to a cc) -- by redeeming an iTunes Gift Card.
Sorry Dick but none of that makes any sense. I am very familiar with how merchant accounts work and simply having a CC registered with iTunes will not allow you accept payments.
The short explanation is a business applies for a merchant account and if qualified is allowed to accept payments provided they also qualify for a secure certificate or a physical payment terminal. The money goes from the customer's bank through the merchant gateway directly into the commercial bank account. You cannot transfer money into a personal bank account. A mom n' pop operation will never be able to use their iTunes account to receive payments. Never. Just like you cannot withdraw cash from a registered iTunes gift card.
Comments
I have never been able to figure out the benefit of having an Amex card, and as such have never signed up for one. They are accepted in less places because of the higher fees so why would I want one? Do they have significantly better point system over banks fighting against innumerable MC/Visa cards for lower rates and higher points?
Sure, I have a routine, too, but I do change my routine as needed to make my life more efficient. For starters, i rarely ever carry cash with me anymore. I also don't have opted out of paper bills and don't write checks. I used to do all those things but I found a more efficient way of handling that, which includes an entire calendar category specifically with monthly, biannually, or yearly reminders for payments since I no longer have a bill to look at.
I've always held the position that it will be a supplementary solution, like cards being held in a wallet with cash. I'll be using it right away and in many ways i already do with my Starbucks card nearly every morning as part of my routine.
:???:
I was talking about a multitiered security precaution when I traveled extensively on my own through many countries, usually not speaking the language. Fortune favours the prepared.
Again, ?Pay is just the evolution of payments. It adds security and convenience. It will not cause plastic cards to disappear just as plastic cards didn't cause cash to disappear, but it's still a paradigm shift.
Financially they could. Consider how American Express got their start in the 19th century to issuing a plastic card in the mid-20th century. But clearly they don't want to an I think this solution is much, much better for them. Trying to be like most of their competitors who think every thing should be a razor blade with no razor handles just isn't a viable business model in most cases. Apple is clear their focus is on HW sales.
In addition, ?Pay offers security that is superior to card-present -- because it validates (not identifies) the buyer.
That should result in lower risk/costs/fees to the bank, the cc processor, the merchant and, ultimately the customer.
A bank or a merchant will have access to several methods of processing cc transactions at different risks/fees. Hypothetically (using whole numbers for comparison and combining risk costs with fees), say:
Which option will the banks and merchants favor -- Hint: Follow the money!
How will banks and merchants incentivize the customer -- Hint: Offer him money!
Again, these amounts are hypothetical -- but it of advantage for the bank, processor, merchant to use ?Pay -- as soon and as often as possible.
I believe many people forget just how much cachet and clout Apple has.
Apple is the modern day Sears. Not the Sears we know today but the Sears of yesteryear. The Sears that started numerous highly successful ventures including; Allstate, Discover Card, National Tire Warehouse and Orchard Supply Hardware.
Apple could easily create their own bank and issue their own credit cards. I do not believe they should or would at this time, merely that they could.
I have never been able to figure out the benefit of having an Amex card, and as such have never signed up for one. They are accepted in less places because of the higher fees so why would I want one? Do they have significantly better point system over banks fighting against innumerable MC/Visa cards for lower rates and higher points?
As I mentioned earlier it is about the services. If you are in a foreign country and you have problems they treat you like royalty. They will send a car, an ambulance, a private jet, whatever it takes.
But Apple would not need to become a bank -- just pass through ?Pay transactions to the bank ... instead of issuing iTunes cc transaction to the bank as it does now (for which it is charged a fee -- same as other merchants).
1) I still don't understand. They "treat you like royalty" because of a piece of plastic that they are more likely not to be able to take but they won't "treat you like royalty" if you have a payment system that is accepted in more places? In my experience how you're treated in terms of service depends on your ability and willingness to pay, nothing else.
2) What problems would I have? The only problem I can see is having an Amex card that isn't accepted when I need to have a MC or Visa.
But Apple would not need to become a bank -- just pass through ?Pay transactions to the bank ... instead of issuing iTunes cc transaction to the bank as it does now (for which it is charged a fee -- same as other merchants).
No there is no protocol for adding money to a credit card unless it is a refund. A credit card cannot accept payments. Eventually I see Apple getting rid of all those credit cards and only accepting ?Pay, I definitely do not see them offering merchant accounts except in the case of App Store developers.
I agree although I believe your estimates of risk are wildly inaccurate though I imagine you aren't arguing specifics merely the importance of security. Please note I did highlight privacy and security as key in addition to the market strategy. I will state emphatically that Apple would not have been successful with the exact same implementation and features with ?Pay three years ago. Three years ago, EMV lacked a tokenization specification, Passbook, Secure Element and TouchID didn't exist but more importantly three years ago there was no incentive for retailers to update point of sale terminals.
I have my servants and staff for such trivialities.
1) I still don't understand. They "treat you like royalty" because of a piece of plastic that they are more likely not to be able to take but they won't "treat you like royalty" if you have a payment system that is accepted in more places? In my experience how you're treated in terms of service depends on your ability and willingness to pay, nothing else.
2) What problems would I have? The only problem I can see is having an Amex card that isn't accepted when I need to have a MC or Visa.
I have personal experience with an emergency abroad and they came to the rescue. If you don't want it, no problem. I won't leave home without it.
That sounds like it could be a pretty good slogan if it was cleaned up a bit. You should pitch that to Amex¡
Ha!
In the last few days, we've seen in AI threads: Bo Dereck, Lil Abner Women, Sears catalog womens undergarment pages ...
Continuing that trend:
Here, beside his friend, is my OSH'By-Gosh Beaver ...
I use it in bed to prop up my iPad 4 at just the right angle (he has a stiff tail) -- while lying on my side in bed, head on a pillow ... Works great.
Apple will not for the long, long foreseeable future go all in with only Apple Pay. They would miss out on a ton of sales. There are some people that will refuse to use NFC payments no matter how much better it is.
:???:
Glad to know that you still have a use for beaver at your age.
Apple will not for the long, long foreseeable future go all in with only Apple Pay. They would miss out on a ton of sales. There are some people that will refuse to use NFC payments no matter how much better it is.
Yeah maybe but you know there is going to be an online ?Pay too not just NFC. We don't know much about it yet but remember ?Pay is just a proxy for an actual credit card. I just think they would rather not be storing all those cards.
Yes there is a protocol for adding money to an iTunes account (admittedly not to a cc) -- by redeeming an iTunes Gift Card.
As Apple presented in the announcement, A [qualified] iTunes cc (currently AMEX, MC, Visa -- likely, soon Discover) can automatically be registered as an ?Pay credit card.
I don't know if you've ever had a merchant account with a bank -- it's similar to a big credit card (or used to be) for the merchant. All the cc transactions the merchant accepts (sales/returns) are processed against that account. Usually, the merchant backs up [guarantees] the total liquidity of that account with a commensurate amount in another account at the same bank -- in case the merchant accepts more credit cards, in a short time period, than can be cleared the bank (e.g. Black Friday long weekend).
If Apple were to offer the service, a savvy ?Pay bank and merchant, looking to make money, could use a merchant's iTunes account to accept transactions and pass them through to the merchant's merchant account at the bank.
I don't see much difference in this and what [supposedly] will happen to an individual's iTunes account once he chooses to authorize the card on file (with iTunes) as an ?Pay card. As I understand it, any subsequent iTunes transactions against that cc will be automatically transformed to ?Pay transactions with the bank.
As an example of a small merchant where this might make sense -- my wife had a small crafts business in Tucson 1997-2001. She had a $25,000 merchant account at our bank -- backed up by savings and CD accounts. The Shopping Cart / POST app (which I wrote) authorized online web transactions. And she used standard wipe and swipe or cc terminal authorization for card present transactions.
Dont know if there is an nfc that can be adapted the the ipad already but if there is not i guess someone will come out with it. Maybe even apple. You know like the square thing to take cc but for apple pay making it much cheaper for those that already use ipad as PoS
I admit to the inaccuracies -- I am not involved in commerce any more, and have no current knowledge of the industry -- however, I do understand risk, its costs and motivation -- and as you suggest, I tried to highlight the importance of security and privacy and their relative advantage by an arbitrary number value.
I also agree with your other points -- the time is now!
Yes there is a protocol for adding money to an iTunes account (admittedly not to a cc) -- by redeeming an iTunes Gift Card.
Sorry Dick but none of that makes any sense. I am very familiar with how merchant accounts work and simply having a CC registered with iTunes will not allow you accept payments.
The short explanation is a business applies for a merchant account and if qualified is allowed to accept payments provided they also qualify for a secure certificate or a physical payment terminal. The money goes from the customer's bank through the merchant gateway directly into the commercial bank account. You cannot transfer money into a personal bank account. A mom n' pop operation will never be able to use their iTunes account to receive payments. Never. Just like you cannot withdraw cash from a registered iTunes gift card.
Or, maybe: What crud is in your wallet?