Another GT Advanced executive sold $2M in stock after sapphire deal with Apple began to sour

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 76
    Originally Posted by Mac-sochist View Post

    …opinion.

     

    Again, PO.

  • Reply 42 of 76
    radarthekatradarthekat Posts: 3,114moderator
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by blazar View Post



    Guys, these folks ARE insiders! Their sales of stock are public knowledge and those sales should force a shareholder to consider this in their investing.



    It is fully in their right to sell stock if things look like they are going south. Tell me that you would not have done the same for $10mil.



    Other shareholders could have sold the SAME time as the insider and no harm would have come to most of their money.



    The problem is knowing which insider trades are actually a sign of a bad company and which trades are simply insiders "taking cash out to diversify".



    The GT analysts never said anything negative about these share sales that I am aware of, but I could have missed something.



    I would guess that a lot of folks commenting here don't actually know all the laws, including myself. These events were shady yes... But criminal? i doubt it.



    Criminal would have been if the CEO told his non-employee friend (like martha stewart) to sell off stock and did not tell the rest of shareholders.

     

    Good post.  I'll add that it's one thing to see $10 million in insider sales in a company you believe to be worth $1.5 billion.  Those same insider sales take on a whole new light when its realized that the company is worth a very small fraction of $1.5 billion, or nothing at all.  So I don't blame GTAT shareholders for not taking the insider sales as a red flag in this case.  Where I do lay the blame at their feet is in their referring to themselves as GTAT investors when their ownership of GTAT shares clearly fits the definition of speculation.

     

    An investment is a commitment to holding a security as long as the underlying fundamentals and business prospects remain intact.  

     

    It's possible to have an investment in Apple shares, because you'll be fine holding those shares over the long term as long as Apple continues to do as well as it is currently doing; pulling in significant profits on growing revenues.

     

    But holding GTAT shares doesn't represent an investment because you wouldn't want GTAT to continue doing as well as it was doing; the company's entire solar business (a near $1 billion 2011 and 2012 run rate) collapsed in 2013.  The company would likely have gone into bankruptcy in late 2013 had the Apple sapphire deal not come along.  A position in GTAt shares, any time in the last 12 months, whether you bought them during those 12 months or whether you already owned then and continued to hold them during that period, was a speculative bet that a small and struggling company with little experience in sapphire manufacturing could be successful in scaling up to supply the material in quantities and quality required by the largest customer imaginable.  

     

    If you were in GTAT shares, you were speculating and speculators, by definition, understand the game they are in and the risk that they could, at any time, take a significant loss due to a failure of their bet to play out in the direction they made it.

  • Reply 43 of 76
    If I were going to make a $139 million payment to you, how would I go about it exactly? PayPal?
  • Reply 44 of 76
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rbonner View Post

    Curious, are you a stock holder?  Trying to determine why the high level of anger on all of the posts.  (Really curious)

    Doesn't matter why sog is ranting on this. What he's writing seems to be both correct, and on-topic. Status as a stockholder or not has no bearing on the merit of his comments here. I get angry when there is a robbery in my community, too, and it has no direct connection to me.

  • Reply 45 of 76
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sog35 View Post

     

    Like I've been saying these GTAT Executives are CROOKS and FRAUDS.

     

    The more truth that comes out the more you will see it.  Some of you here are just fools and are willing to give these idiots the benefit of the doubt that they don't deserve.


     

    Shades of ENRON. "burn, baby, burn!"  <img class=" src="http://forums-files.appleinsider.com/images/smilies//lol.gif" /><img class=" src="http://forums-files.appleinsider.com/images/smilies//lol.gif" /><img class=" src="http://forums-files.appleinsider.com/images/smilies//lol.gif" />

  • Reply 46 of 76
    dasanman69dasanman69 Posts: 12,984member
    If insider trading did indeed happen it will take at least a few months to investigate. Martha Stewart wasn't jailed until 2004 for the ImClone stocks she sold in 2001. Had she weathered the storm like many other stockholders did she would have made healthy gains plus no jail time.
  • Reply 47 of 76
    sog35 wrote: »
    That's all fine and dandy.  As long as the CEO disclosed what was going on.  He did not.

    Like I said on Aug 26th the CEO said the company was doing GREAT and had a strong balance sheet.
    Then 6 weeks later they are Bankrupt. 
    Obviously it takes longer than 6 weeks to go from STRONG company to BANKRUPT.
    In other words the CEO was lying about the true condition of the company.  if he disclosed the liquidity problems of GTAT I would be fine with his stock sales.

    I have a feeling the CEO did tip some of his friends.  He probably gave them a heads up they were going bankrupt and they need to sell before the stock drops 95%.  PLus there was massive short positions weeks before the bankruptcy.  Its obvious someone tipped off the bankruptcy.

    IMO that's the only logical reason GTAT was totally quiet about their financial problems.  Why else would they blindside the market with a bankruptcy?  So that their friends could sell before it drop 95%

    What sog has said is accurate and people need take a step back, relax, and get off the 'insider trading' catch phrase.

    At issue is NOT the fact they sold shares of their company, which appear to have been done appropriately within a SEC timeline. The issue is they provided massively misleading statements to drive up the stock price knowing it was going to tank. Fraud in stock trades isn't automatically 'inside trading', but it's still fraud.

    See source link for info.
    http://files.shareholder.com/downloads/AMDA-1AHIQM/3545348616x0x778573/57e6989c-b7d2-4041-b7bf-845d281975d7/GTAT_Corporate%20Overview_2014_August_final%20to%20post.pdf
    Page 4 states exactly what sog had mentioned about their balance sheet, with more info on page 14. Other details is scattered throughout.
  • Reply 48 of 76
    adonissmuadonissmu Posts: 1,772member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rbonner View Post

     



    Yeah, they made money, but that is not the cause of the failure I suspect, it is a separate event.  

     

    I bet they way they handled the contract might be up for a review for sure, which would affect stock price, but seeing them cuffed won't actually make shareholders any happier.  It's a shame that they can't be made to revert the transactions and the money split between holders, now that would make people very happy indeed.


    If they run the company into bankruptcy they shouldn't be getting millions of dollars. No one has a problem with people eating. We have a problem with people getting rich quick under morally compromising circumstances.

  • Reply 49 of 76
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by GTR View Post



    Man, I'm shattered about what's happened to GT Advanced.



    Yuk.



    Yuk.



    Yuk.

    Thus you're confident that Apple can now source all the sapphire components they need going forward so as not to disrupt production.

  • Reply 50 of 76

    The lesson to be learnt from this fiasco:

     

    This wouldn't have happened if Steve Jobs were alive.

     

    Cook has shown his weakness in deals and partnerships, what with Beats and now GT. He did superb work as sidekick to Jobs, but it's a different role being CEO. I get the feeling that he isn't as ruthless as Jobs, and also that he has too much on his plate.

     

    Let's all hope for a happier end to the year, starting with this Thursday. 

  • Reply 51 of 76
    elehcdnelehcdn Posts: 381member

    It's important to note a few things ...

     

    While Apple may have withheld payment earlier in the year, it is likely that problems were identified earlier than that. It was not in Apple's interest to see GTAT fail since they still had to make their own release date. Withholding the earlier payment would likely come after significant inability to meet deadlines and/or lack of communication from GTAT management.

     

    As noted by an earlier poster, GTAT was in serious financial problems before Apple entered the picture due to a massive collapse of their solar business and the loss of solar subsidies. http://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjones/2014/10/08/is-apple-responsible-for-gtats-bankruptcy/ Don't think that the Apple lawyers didn't draw up a contract that would cover their butts in case GTAT failed - it was a big risk to even give them the business. I highly doubt that a startup on its last legs would have lawyers that could outsmart the Apple lawyers, especially when in desperation mode. Also interesting to note that in the article, it says that GTAT's June quarter 10-Q statement, they did state that there were significant costs due to inventory losses and production inefficiencies. Any investors should have been concerned before the liquidity issues hit that sent GTAT into bankruptcy.

     

    The speculation is that the stock will be delisted and that they will go from Chapter 11 to Chapter 7 (liquidation) very quickly, further bolstered by bringing Rothschild in. 

     

    Forbes has done a good job of covering the whole bankruptcy, including yesterday's article about where Apple stands in this whole deal. http://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjones/2014/10/07/what-does-gtats-bankruptcy-mean-to-apple/

  • Reply 52 of 76
    slurpyslurpy Posts: 5,173member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Benjamin Frost View Post

     

    The lesson to be learnt from this fiasco:

     

    This wouldn't have happened if Steve Jobs were alive.

     


     

    "Lesson to be learned"?

     

    You're so full of shit, as usual. Dragging Jobs from the grave whenever it serves your agenda. You have no fucking idea if this would have happened or not. Also, you make it sound as if it was somehow a catastrophe for Apple. It isn't. It's a catastrophe for GT and its shareholders. Apple sold 10 million iPhone 6's in a weekend, and there's 20million on pre-order in China. Most successful launch in their history. They will probably be supply constrained for months, even while selling record numbers.  So what "wouldn't" have happened" if Steve Jobs was alive? A deal with a 3rd party going south? Really? You have quite the misplaced,God-like impression of Jobs, even though there was a ton of fuckups under his watch, much bigger than this.  You want a list? 99% of people buying Apple products won't know, or care about this GT thing. It has little to no effect on the company, its brand, or its products. 

     

    And you couldn't help bringing up the Beats deal, which is completely irrelevant to this, and which most fair-minded, rational people can see as a net positive for Apple, not negative. But trolls like you are always desperate to spuriously connect disparate things in order to prove "trends", as intellectually dishonest as it is. You also jumped on "bend-gate" as if it was the end of the world, for the same reason- even though it didn't have a thing on "Antenna-gate", under Jobs. Cook is a ****-up in your eyes, and you'll do your damnedest to "prove it" even if it means pushing and spamming false fiascos just like all the other grotesquely dishonest Apple-hating trolls. Your vendetta against Cook, who has by any measure done a commendable job so far, is frankly disgusting. 

  • Reply 53 of 76
    slurpy wrote: »
     
    The lesson to be learnt from this fiasco:

    This wouldn't have happened if Steve Jobs were alive.

    "Lesson to be learned"?

    You're so full of shit, as usual. Dragging Jobs from the grave whenever it serves your agenda. You have no fucking idea if this would have happened or not. Also, you make it sound as if it was somehow a catastrophe for Apple. It isn't. It's a catastrophe for GT and its shareholders. Apple sold 10 million iPhone 6's in a weekend, and there's 20million on pre-order in China. Most successful launch in their history. They will probably be supply constrained for months, even while selling record numbers.  So what "wouldn't" have happened" if Steve Jobs was alive? A deal with a 3rd party going south? Really? You have quite the misplaced,God-like impression of Jobs, even though there was a ton of fuckups under his watch, much bigger than this.  You want a list? 99% of people buying Apple products won't know, or care about this GT thing. It has little to no effect on the company, its brand, or its products. 

    And you couldn't help bringing up the Beats deal, which is completely irrelevant to this, and which most fair-minded, rational people can see as a net positive for Apple, not negative. But trolls like you are always desperate to spuriously connect disparate things in order to prove "trends", as intellectually dishonest as it is. You also jumped on "bend-gate" as if it was the end of the world, for the same reason- even though it didn't have a thing on "Antenna-gate", under Jobs. Cook is a ****-up in your eyes, and you'll do your damnedest to "prove it" even if it means pushing and spamming false fiascos just like all the other grotesquely dishonest Apple-hating trolls. Your vendetta against Cook, who has by any measure done a commendable job so far, is frankly disgusting. 

    The truth hurts, as your reaction so eminently demonstrates.
  • Reply 54 of 76
    dasanman69dasanman69 Posts: 12,984member
    slurpy wrote: »
    You're so full of shit, as usual. Dragging Jobs from the grave whenever it serves your agenda. You have no fucking idea if this would have happened or not. Also, you make it sound as if it was somehow a catastrophe for Apple. It isn't. It's a catastrophe for GT and its shareholders. Apple sold 10 million iPhone 6's in a weekend, and there's 20million on pre-order in China. Most successful launch in their history. So what "wouldn't" have happened" if Steve Jobs was alive? A deal going south? Really? You have quite the God-like impression of Jobs, even though there was a ton of fuckups under his watch, much bigger than this that 99% of people buying Apple products won't know, or care about. 

    And you couldn't help bringing up the Beats deal, which is completely irrelevant to this, and which most fair-minded, rational people can see as a net positive for Apple, not negative. But trolls like you are always desperate to spuriously connect disparate things in order to prove "trends", as intellectually dishonest as it is. You also jumped on "bend-gate" as if it was the end of the world, for the same reason- even though it didn't have a thing on "Antenna-gate", under Jobs. Cook is a ****-up in your eyes, and you'll do your damnedest to "prove it" even if it means pushing and spamming false fiascos just like all the other grotesquely dishonest Apple-hating trolls. 

    I tend to agree with [@]Benjamin Frost[/@]. I think SJ would've lit a fire to the ass of the CEO, and gotten what was promised like he did with Corning. SJ just had a knack for getting people to perform at a higher level.

    I also think Apple was 'pot commited' with its investment in GTAT, meaning that putting in more money would've yielded a positive return instead of cutting their losses.
  • Reply 55 of 76
    slurpy wrote: »
    Sog, with all due respect, it's not foolish to wait for actual facts to come to light before making final conclusions. It never is. They may be crooks or frauds, but that hasn't been proven. Or, maybe they just fucked up and the reason is incompetence, not malice. What's foolish is being so confident about labels without knowing the facts. 

    Not like it matters, whether you give them the benefit of the doubt or not will not affect anyone. 
    How can you say that they aren't crooks or frauds? Insider trading is illegal. It's that simple. There's the proof that they are crooks and frauds.
  • Reply 56 of 76
    elehcdnelehcdn Posts: 381member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post





    I tend to agree with @Benjamin Frost. I think SJ would've lit a fire to the ass of the CEO, and gotten what was promised like he did with Corning. SJ just had a knack for getting people to perform at a higher level.



    I also think Apple was 'pot commited' with its investment in GTAT, meaning that putting in more money would've yielded a positive return instead of cutting their losses.

    You should probably read the Forbes articles.

     

    Apple really had nothing to win or lose with this deal ... other than if they had intended to ship sapphire screens with the iPhone 6 & 6+. In the end, Slurpy is correct - Apple had record sales with the iPhone release even without the sapphire screens. 

     

    Perhaps Apple will be able to acquire the technology and the factory when the smoke clears from this GTAT fiasco and can work towards sapphire screens in the future, but the truth is that Apple knew far enough ahead that they weren't going to be able to include the technology and made adjustments. This is no different than what happened when Jobs was in control - Apple aimed high in design and sometimes made it in time for a release and sometimes didn't. Thinking that Apple went into a risky deal with a supplier that was already on the edge and lost out because they bet the farm on someone that couldn't deliver really undermines the overwhelming success that the release of the iPhone 6 & 6+ has been.

  • Reply 57 of 76
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bdkennedy1 View Post

     

    I don't understand the scandal here. If I work at my company and I see it tanking, I'm going to sell my stock before it's worth nothing.




    Sorry dude but you can't do that with a publicly traded company. It is insider trading, same goes for telling you Mom or you 2nd cousin from BFE. If you don't think the SEC will find out about it, well enjoy that new Federal Country club you'll be staying in. Maybe you are to young to remember Martha Stewart and her troubles. She stood to lose $228K if the stock went to zero - she lost a whole hell of a lot more than that. 

  • Reply 58 of 76
    dasanman69dasanman69 Posts: 12,984member
    elehcdn wrote: »
    You should probably read the Forbes articles.

    Apple really had nothing to win or lose with this deal ... other than if they had intended to ship sapphire screens with the iPhone 6 & 6+. In the end, Slurpy is correct - Apple had record sales with the iPhone release even without the sapphire screens. 

    Perhaps Apple will be able to acquire the technology and the factory when the smoke clears from this GTAT fiasco and can work towards sapphire screens in the future, but the truth is that Apple knew far enough ahead that they weren't going to be able to include the technology and made adjustments. This is no different than what happened when Jobs was in control - Apple aimed high in design and sometimes made it in time for a release and sometimes didn't. Thinking that Apple went into a risky deal with a supplier that was already on the edge and lost out because they bet the farm on someone that couldn't deliver really undermines the overwhelming success that the release of the iPhone 6 & 6+ has been.

    It's not always about what you can get. It sometimes needs to be about what you can provide. I don't think Apple is interested in running factories, so why not help GTAT with what would essentially be chump change for Apple so that GTAT can right their ship. Apple is always going to win, but one looks like a bigger winner when they help someone else win.
  • Reply 59 of 76
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by coxnvox View Post



    If I were going to make a $139 million payment to you, how would I go about it exactly? PayPal?



    I'm sure PayPal would be very happy to handle that transaction(s). ????

  • Reply 60 of 76
    slurpyslurpy Posts: 5,173member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Benjamin Frost View Post





    The truth hurts, as your reaction so eminently demonstrates.

     

    Said like the little the pitiful troll that you are. Yeah, the fact that I'm upset by your practise of  always pretending to know what a dead guy would/wouldn't do, and obsessively dragging Steve Jobs out of his grave in almost every one of your posts in order to bash Cook and Apple, means "the truth hurts". There isn't an iota of "truth" in your post, because you're not stating any actual facts. Your fantasies of what would or wouldn't have happened under Jobs, 4 years after his death, does not count as the "truth" or as any kind of empirical "fact". A 4 year old understands this, but clearly not you. 

     

    What my reaction "demonstrates" is that I think your filthy practise of using the dead Steve Jobs consistently to baselessly bash Apple is a filthy, dishonest, cowardly, and moronic thing to do. Since you feel you're so intimate with Jobs, I wonder if you've thought of what he would think of you, someone who has consistently exploited his death in order to smear and bash his hand picked successor, and the company he founded? Maybe chew on that between your trolls. 

     

    But no, it must be because I'm terrified of the "TRUTH", which you hilariously define your consistently empty, hypothetical, baseless drivel. 

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