Are the Upgraders going to die soon?

marcuk · January 30, 2002 2:32PM

Surely there can't be that many people left with pre G4 macs that are going to upgrade using products from Sonnett, XLR8 etc. In fact there probably isn't any point upgrading a G3 mac faster than 350MHZ.

Why are there no upgrades?

Is Moto denying these chips at Apples request? Seems most likely

Is Moto having yield problems? Not very likely, there are lots of other fast G4 customers apart from Apple.

Is there a technical reason? I've heard so, but I think its all BS. Remember when Apple deliberatley released a firmware upgrade that killed G4 upgrades, Sonnet/xlr8 found a way past it in a few months. Possibly.

How long do you speculate the upgrade co.s can servive with their 500 G4 upgrades, and stupidly overpriced dual G4 upgrades? I'd say about a year before they pull out of the market, if they can't get faster g4's

voxman · January 30, 2002 2:39PM

If that happens it pretty much prevents me from ever buying a tower. It basically means that the Powermacs are disposable computers just like the iMacs. Now I love my little iMac, but i swore I would never buy another non upgradeable again. Why would I pay the extra 700 bucks for a tower and monitor, over a g4 iMac? I don't really need the expandibility, just the upgradeability.

[ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: popstar92 ]

nonsuch · January 30, 2002 2:55PM

MOSR claims that Motorola deliberately controls the price of PPCs to make them unaffordable when purchased in small lots (under 10,000), which is how upgrade makers would buy them. If true, it pisses me off--I was hoping to be able to upgrade my 350Mhz G4 this year, but I'll never get the chance if Sonnet can't buy chips at a decent price.

g-news · January 30, 2002 3:09PM

at least you can upgrade to dual 500MHz G4, everyone with machines faster than that can't upgrade, only downgrade.

At least they can be overclocked.

G-News

moogs · January 30, 2002 3:09PM

No offense but why do people insist on posting things that "MOSR said" at this point in Mac rumor evolution? Ryan Meader knows precisely jack-squat about what comes next for Apple. I can't believe anyone wastes the calories even reading his site anymore.

And no, AI rumors are no better, and SpyMac is no better and on and on - SO WHAT? So just because Meader's rumors have been worthless for a longer amount of time makes them more viable?!

He sucks, his site sucks (same tired design even!) and his information swallows - hard. At least The Register and Think Secret are *sorta* close at least *half* of the time...MOSR blows goats though.

<img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />

[ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: Moogs ? ]

g-news · January 30, 2002 3:11PM

good to hear you obviously have a problem with him. What did he do? took away your girlfriend at highschool?

Just let him do whatever he wants, after all you dont HAVE to read his stuff.

G-News

moogs · January 30, 2002 3:13PM

Hint: I DON'T read his stuff. Doesn't my post make that fairly evident? And Meader couldn't steal a 13 year old girl away from her puppy-lover, even if he had NSync tickets. He doesn't need chics - he's got his left hand.

tigerwoods99 · January 30, 2002 3:35PM

I think the technical stuff is all a bunch of BS. Honestly it sucks because I wish there were some 800 MHz G4s or even G3s for me to stick in this beige G3. PC users can basically get a new system by just sticking in a new processor and motherboard, for $200-$300. We have to pay that much just for a 500 MHz G4. They get an Athlon XP 2000+ with a DDR mobo. Since I obviously have to wait for a G5 now I was planning on making this computer a descent system. I figured I'd add RAM, add ATA133, new faster/bigger hard drive, graphics card, and finally processor. This is gonna cost me as much as it would cost me to build a whole system on the PC side. If I could get something like a mobo that gave me FireWire, USB 2.0, PCI slots, PC133 support and could add a G3 800 MHz, that would be like heaven. This beige G3 could really turn into a nice computer, since it's already got the expandability/upgradability and more full drive bays than the G4s.

moogs · January 30, 2002 3:39PM

I don't know how true the comment about Motorola rigging prices so companies like Sonnet can't afford to buy chips in small lots, but I recently got an email from one of the tech guys at Sonnet and they basically said for those early G4 users who are looking for a SP upgrade, it may not come for a while yet and when it does it may only be 667 MHz or perhaps 733.

I don't know what the technical barriers are to using a newer chip like the 7450 on an older mobo, but he didn't sound encouraging as far as future procesor upgrade speeds. At least not from a G4 owners' perspective. For someone with a G3, a 667MHz G4 upgrade would be pretty dern good.

nonsuch · January 30, 2002 7:39PM

[quote]Originally posted by Moogs ?:

I don't know how true the comment about Motorola rigging prices so companies like Sonnet can't afford to buy chips in small lots, but I recently got an email from one of the tech guys at Sonnet and they basically said for those early G4 users who are looking for a SP upgrade, it may not come for a while yet and when it does it may only be 667 MHz or perhaps 733.

<hr></blockquote>

Well, for my lowly 350, I'd consider such an upgrade if it were priced right (<$300). I'm not optimistic though.

[quote]

at least you can upgrade to dual 500MHz G4

<hr></blockquote>

Nope ... the uni-north ASIC in my G4 is too old; it won't accept a dual processor. You see my dilemma.

jobes · January 30, 2002 7:54PM

The death of processor upgrade makers? Maybe so ...

I was wondering if it was due to pin differences. The ZIF socket used in the G3s and early G4s meant a fairly easy upgrade for any ZIF mac owner (my 300Mhz B&W was very happy when it got a 500Mhz G4 in it). All these processors during this time had the same pin layout, so they'd fit straight in.

The highest upgrade chip speed I saw was a 500mhz G4. When this came out it was damn expensive, but it was within a few months of Apple lauching the (then) top of the range 500Mhz PowerMac. Throughout 1999/2000 we didn't actually see any faster chips. Apple played for time with the '2 brains are better than one' dualie range, and I think several upgrade companies followed suite with dual G4 upgrade boards. My memory is more hazy but I have a feeling they may only have been compatible with Sawtooth-model G4s. And I'm not sure if they ever actually shipped ... I'll go read up on this inna bit

The first G4 speedbump we saw in over a year was 466, 533, 667 & 733 at MWSF2001. Was this the introduction of the G4+, and did it use a new pin-structure/number which wasn't easily backwardly compatble with ZIF? I was reading the Moto press info on the Apollo Monday, and remember thinking the reference to the pins, which it commented was backwardly compatible with the previous generation of G4s, which started with Digital Audio PowerMacs, and have been musing this.

I'm only speculating, but I think it might it might be to do with this, and also not working on the 66 or 100 Mhz buses of previous G3/G4 models. The'Digital Audio' PowerMacs were the first to use a faster 133Mhz bus speed. Could it be that the mobos on older machines, already some bottleneck on older machines with newer upgrades, became too much of an difficulty to justify developing upgrades for these machines?

I'm not sure if economics or engineering issues have have killed off upgrades for older Macs, but I don't think we'll being seeing any more on ther market in future. Which is a pity, because like many people here, I have an old Mac, which i upgraded, and it's served me well. When I buy a new PowerMac in the next 6-18 months, I'd like to think I'll be able to upgrade it as well as I had my smurf-tower.

PS Got a PowerMac? Old or even a new Apollo? Pissed with the ATA bus speeds and on a budget? Spend £100/$100 on an ATA/133 accelerator, buy some new fast hard drives and REALLY feel the difference. And don't buy Sonnet .... the products are great, but they just buy Acard PCI cards and rebrand 'em. I've bought from both, and I was pleasantly surprised when I discovered Acard and saved myself some money and was able to make a beige G3 so much faster. My B&W screams too. Sorry for the deviation :cool:

[ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: jobes ]

junkyard dawg · January 30, 2002 8:39PM

This is so depressing. I originally bought my Sawtooth G4 with the intent to upgrade the 400 MHz CPU in a few years, but now it looks like my Tower is no more upgradable than the disposable iMac. WTF!!

I don't believe the technical limitations....if upgrade manufacturers can put a G4 in a G3, then they can put a G4 in a G4, know what I'm saying? There just haven't been any dramatic changes in the G4 processors that would be obstacles to upgrading. I don't expect to be able to put a dual G5 in my Sawtooth, but hell, is it too much to ask for an 800 MHz G4 upgrade?

Apple is insane of they think that more people will buy towers if they can't buy upgrades for them. I know many PC users that like Macs but would never buy one because you cannot upgrade them, and I totally understand his point.

Apple should have at least one line of computers that is fully expandable and upgradeable. If they slash this feature from their lineup then the value of Powermacs plummets.

Sometimes I think Steve Jobs is on a crusade to fill landfills with as many Macs as possible.

outsider · January 30, 2002 8:56PM

At the minimum they could clone the present daughtercards and replace the chips with faster ones. It's that simple. Apple can't prevent you from buying the components and designing the units. I think it's a bit more sinister. Like Motorola making you buy 10,000 of them minimum for a discount. I suggest the upgraders buy either all 866 or all 933s and differentiate them by offering duals different cache scheems, etc. Something like this:

866MHz no L3 - $299

866MHz 1MB L3 - $399

866MHz 2MB L3 - $499

866MHz 2MB L3, Dual - $899

Replace 866 with 1GHz if you want.

i think, therefore ibook. · January 30, 2002 9:25PM

re: Meader, I know it's an Ad Hominim, but you've all seen the photos of his (as of two years ago) girlfriend, haven't you? Shudder, shudder, flubber lover.

razzfazz · January 31, 2002 9:39AM

[quote]Originally posted by Junkyard Dawg:

This is so depressing. I originally bought my Sawtooth G4 with the intent to upgrade the 400 MHz CPU in a few years, but now it looks like my Tower is no more upgradable than the disposable iMac. WTF!!

<hr></blockquote>

Well, pretty much the same is true on the PC side (only motherboard and CPU are much cheaper). SOme reasons you can't stick new processors in many older boards are: Lack of support of low enough core voltages, different pinouts, different sockets / slots.

[quote]

I don't believe the technical limitations....if upgrade manufacturers can put a G4 in a G3, then they can put a G4 in a G4, know what I'm saying? There just haven't been any dramatic changes in the G4 processors that would be obstacles to upgrading.

<hr></blockquote>

I'm not so sure. The original G4 (7400/7410) definitely could be run on the old-style 60x bus as used on the G3 and earlier PPCs (and in fact that's how it was done on the Yikes board). I'm not quite sure the same can as easily be done with the 744x/745x series. Also, the latter feature a completely different package, so this might be a problem too.

[quote]Apple is insane of they think that more people will buy towers if they can't buy upgrades for them. I know many PC users that like Macs but would never buy one because you cannot upgrade them, and I totally understand his point.

<hr></blockquote>

That's just not true. Try sticking an Athlon XP in any first generation Athlon board - no go. Neither with socket478 P4s and early P4 boards. Or even with Tualatin P3s and early P2 or P3 boards, even.

And besides, for most people, upgradeability would encompass a bit more than just CPU and mainboard, I guess.

[quote]

Apple should have at least one line of computers that is fully expandable and upgradeable. If they slash this feature from their lineup then the value of Powermacs plummets.

Sometimes I think Steve Jobs is on a crusade to fill landfills with as many Macs as possible.<hr></blockquote>

I don't think so.

If you could just replace the CPUs on a Mac easily and for little money, how many people do you think would actually have opted to buy a new Mac in the last couple of years as opposed to just shell out a fraction of the cash for a new CPU, some RAM and maybe a new graphics card?

Bye,

RazzFazz

outsider · January 31, 2002 10:46AM

I'm not so sure. The original G4 (7400/7410) definitely could be run on the old-style 60x bus as used on the G3 and earlier PPCs (and in fact that's how it was done on the Yikes board). I'm not quite sure the same can as easily be done with the 744x/745x series. Also, the latter feature a completely different package, so this might be a problem too.

This is not quite true. The 745X series all can run on either the MPX or 60x bus. Therefore there should not be too much of an issue to run a 7450 in say a B&W machine. In fact, if you look at the Mot sps site and check out their evaluation boards, one of them has a MPC107 memory/PCI controller and clearly states the 7400/7410/7450/7440 is supported on the 107. The MPC106 is the memory controller used in the B&W and the MPC107 is just a 133MHz version of the 106. They both exclusively use the 60x bus and not MPX(I think the beige use the MPC105 but I could be mistaken). Check out <a href="http://e-www.motorola.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=SANDPOINTX3&nodeId=03M943030 450467M98653" target="_blank">this site</a>.

And the package shouldn't be a problem. It's a BGA (uses solder balls instead of pins) anyway so it needs to be installed on an interposer board to connect to the external cache and socket.

I think the main problem is that the upgrade manufacturers have become lazy and basically copied Apple daughtercard designs. Now its harder and they have to design them from scratch. That may be the reason they are taking so long.

[ 01-31-2002: Message edited by: Outsider ]

razzfazz · January 31, 2002 4:32PM

[quote]Originally posted by Outsider:

This is not quite true. The 745X series all can run on either the MPX or 60x bus.

<hr></blockquote>

Note that I said "I'm not quite sure it can be done" rather than "it can't be done".

[quote]Therefore there should not be too much of an issue to run a 7450 in say a B&W machine.

<hr></blockquote>

Maybe the old boards can't provide the proper voltages? At least this is the case with the last generation of P3 processors and earlier motherboards...

[quote]

The MPC106 is the memory controller used in the B&W and the MPC107 is just a 133MHz version of the 106. They both exclusively use the 60x bus and not MPX(I think the beige use the MPC105 but I could be mistaken).

<hr></blockquote>

Yeah, actually I find that kinda interesting - if I remember correctly, even several years after the MPX bus first appeared, Apple's core logic chips (UniNorth / Pangea) are still the only controllers capable of actually using MPX bus - everyone else, including Motorola themselves (!), support 60x mode exclusively, wasting quite some potential of the G4.

[quote]

And the package shouldn't be a problem. It's a BGA (uses solder balls instead of pins) anyway so it needs to be installed on an interposer board to connect to the external cache and socket.

<hr></blockquote>

Hmmm, I seem to remember having seen pictures of one of the daughtercards somewhere on the net, and it sure looked like the G4 was soldered directly onto it with no additional layer in between. I'll try to find the link...

[quote]

I think the main problem is that the upgrade manufacturers have become lazy and basically copied Apple daughtercard designs. Now its harder and they have to design them from scratch. That may be the reason they are taking so long.

<hr></blockquote>

I thought about that too, but then kinda wondered why they wouldn't be able to just carry on copying Apple's designs? Why would it become harder all of a sudden?

Bye,

RazzFazz

[ 01-31-2002: Message edited by: RazzFazz ]

outsider · January 31, 2002 5:28PM

I thought about that too, but then kinda wondered why they wouldn't be able to just carry on copying Apple's designs? Why would it become harder all of a sudden?

Well for one thing, If they wanted to make a 750CXe or 750FX upgrade for the B&W or beige they would have to use some unique designs since Apple never used those in those machines. And i'm not sure if the 750 and the 750CX/FX are pin compatible. And ditto for the 7450 in those machines. But I'm not sure why they haven't gotten to the sawtooth machines at least... those have been out for a while.

shiny · January 31, 2002 9:20PM

simple question. why is it apple's fault that the upgrade makers are not offering upgrades? what i mean is why do you assume that Apple has anything to do with Motorola's pricing on the G4s? Have you ever stopped to think that maybe Motorola is charging a price that they think the market will bear? seriously, if the upgrade manufacturers can't afford ten thousand chips, then they either need to buy less chips at a higher price and charge more for their product to cover the cost or they need to get out of the upgrade processor business.

jwdawso · January 31, 2002 9:39PM

[quote]Originally posted by Outsider:

At the minimum they could clone the present daughtercards and replace the chips with faster ones. It's that simple. Apple can't prevent you from buying the components and designing the units. I think it's a bit more sinister. Like Motorola making you buy 10,000 of them minimum for a discount. I suggest the upgraders buy either all 866 or all 933s and differentiate them by offering duals different cache scheems, etc. Something like this:

866MHz no L3 - $299

866MHz 1MB L3 - $399

866MHz 2MB L3 - $499

866MHz 2MB L3, Dual - $899

Replace 866 with 1GHz if you want.<hr></blockquote>

You must be right! Why would motorolla want to make more money by selling more processors? Motorolla likes losing money! The big, bad Motorolla corporation gets its jollies from preventing Mac users from upgrading.

jwdawso · January 31, 2002 9:43PM

[quote]Originally posted by shiny:

simple question. why is it apple's fault that the upgrade makers are not offering upgrades? what i mean is why do you assume that Apple has anything to do with Motorola's pricing on the G4s? Have you ever stopped to think that maybe Motorola is charging a price that they think the market will bear? seriously, if the upgrade manufacturers can't afford ten thousand chips, then they either need to buy less chips at a higher price and charge more for their product to cover the cost or they need to get out of the upgrade processor business.<hr></blockquote>

But, but, but... that means we can't blame Motorolla for disliking us!

(They may be 16 year olds, but I don't think they're geeks.)

<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />

Hey dudes - get a Dell!

[ 01-31-2002: Message edited by: jwdawso ]

Are the Upgraders going to die soon?

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