1) GG backs up his arguments well so I take that as a complement.
2) With my iPhone plugged-in in my bedroom at night, what's the difference?
1) GG *sometimes* backs up his arguments well. He's clearly a smart guy, and is a skilled persuasive writer, but too often his "argument" is simply: "other companies do it too", which is no argument at all.
2) This is essentially what you've done here. It's not that Echo is any worse than the way it sounds like you have your iPhone configured. It's that they're both bad. Or at the very least something that should require very careful consideration, depending on individual situations, and enabled/disabled depending on location/circumstances.
For example, you didn't respond to 2 separate questions above:
1) Are you married? Kids? Have guests over? Are you going to tell them that Amazon has a "listening device" running in your home?
This is not a question to be trivialized. If you're not married, then dating? How many people would be totally creeped out to be out on a first date and find out later that there was an always-on microphone running on the phone sitting on the table between them? It's not as bad as if you showed up and the other person was wearing google glass, but at least that's obvious and there would be a conversation about it in the first 30 seconds.
2) Not to mention, Amazon hasn't been nearly as proactive protecting their user data from outside organizations as Apple -- or even google, for that matter.
There's a TON of (mostly justified, IMO) grousing about google's data collection here on this forum, and while I know you're not one of the main grumblers, it's not like amazon is any better. google at least pretends to care about securing people's personal data while they hoover it up for their own use at ever-increasing rates. I don't feel like amazon even does that much. Anyone using a device like this should expect that anything and everything they say at any time has a good chance of being gathered, analyzed and stored in perpetuity by both commercial and government interests. If you're cool with that, then this portion of the argument is moot. Potentially recording others is another story entirely.
1) GG *sometimes* backs up his arguments well. He's clearly a smart guy, and is a skilled persuasive writer, but too often his "argument" is simply: "other companies do it too", which is no argument at all.
2) This is essentially what you've done here. It's not that Echo is any worse than the way it sounds like you have your iPhone configured. It's that they're both bad. Or at the very least something that should require very careful consideration, depending on individual situations, and enabled/disabled depending on location/circumstances.
If he or anyone makes makes an easy answer then respond to it, but that's not what I've done here. I clearly stated I don't have an issue with neither Echo nor Siri listening at all time for a specific command. I also stated that it's silly to assume that because one is designed to listen for a specific word phrase it's recording and sending back everything you say, just as it's silly to assume that's happening at all with the dozens of microphones you surely are around each day. Why single out the one unlikely scenario and not the other? Because you know Siri is listening for "Hey Siri" means nothing. It's only irrational fear that anyone would assume that must be nefarious but the out-of-sight-out-of-mind solution is surely above board.
For example, you didn't respond to 2 separate questions above:
1) Are you married? Kids? Have guests over? Are you going to tell them that Amazon has a "listening device" running in your home?
This is not a question to be trivialized. If you're not married, then dating? How many people would be totally creeped out to be out on a first date and find out later that there was an always-on microphone running on the phone sitting on the table between them? It's not as bad as if you showed up and the other person was wearing google glass, but at least that's obvious and there would be a conversation about it in the first 30 seconds.
I wouldn't mention it because I don't think having a microphone (or web cam) in a room of my house is a big deal. Plus, again, these are very common in pretty much every household. Do you ask people if there are any microphones or cameras in the vicinity before you talk candidly?
2) Not to mention, Amazon hasn't been nearly as proactive protecting their user data from outside organizations as Apple -- or even google, for that matter.
There's a TON of (mostly justified, IMO) grousing about google's data collection here on this forum, and while I know you're not one of the main grumblers, it's not like amazon is any better. google at least pretends to care about securing people's personal data while they hoover it up for their own use at ever-increasing rates. I don't feel like amazon even does that much. Anyone using a device like this should expect that anything and everything they say at any time has a good chance of being gathered, analyzed and stored in perpetuity by both commercial and government interests. If you're cool with that, then this portion of the argument is moot. Potentially recording others is another story entirely.
If there was any conversation data being sent to and from your iPhone when plugged in with Hey Siri enabled I feel comforted that it would have been discovered right away. I have no trepidation with my iPhone in my bedroom and will no trepidation with my Echo in my kitchen.
This fear because it listens is simply rational because it's not listening the way a person listens. It's only listening for a specific wave form. That's it. It's as safe as not having Hey Siri enabled and some outside entity (or even perhaps someone with access to your device) setting it up to record everything you say.
And to follow up just a bit more, unless you believe Apple is secretly evil, by default Siri only listens when you double-press, right? You have to take extra steps to enable it otherwise, right? That's kinda/sorta okay in my book, even though I would never use it personally, because it means that you're never sending Apple anything accidentally. Very, very different from this Amazon device.
How is it different? I enabled Hey Siri because I want that feature in my bedroom and I will purchase Echo because I want to be able to say "Hey Siri' in my kitchen without having to plug in my iPhone every time I'm in the kitchen or buy an iPod Touch specifically for that task. No matter how you slice it I'm purposely choosing to have this feature in a specific room in my house.
Also, just to show I'm not hypocritical, I guarantee I don't have any internet-connected listening devices in my bedroom. Laptop could potentially be considered in that category, but I have (multiple) mechanisms in place to prevent it from communicating with unauthorized servers. iDevices almost never connect to the internet <i>at all</i> and are under similar controls, with even tighter rules. I don't just talk the talk.
Your iDevices never connect to the Internet? You have no iPhone, iPad or iPod Touch? :???: Seriously?!!!
All these tools like Echo and Siri are amazingly cool, and when they get to the point where you can manage them locally and you don't have to spill your personal life out to commercial (and government) organizations, then I'll be hopping on board faster than you can say "Hey Siri". Until then, no thanks.
If you don't want to enable Hey Siri on an iOS-based device then so be it. I'm not here to convince you to do so, but I love that feature and want more automation in my home. If Apple made a bunch of $99 devices that was equitable to Echo I'd likely invest in them, but they don't, so instead I'll be saying "Hey Siri" to Echo, which despite the countless comments saying you can tell it which command in which to respond [@]fallenjt[/@] says you can't do.
The bottom line is this: if you around an Android, Apple, Amazon, LG, HTC, Samsung, or whatever other device around you — not necessarily your own device — you can't be sure it's not recording what you say, either by accident or on purpose, from the HW maker, SW maker, a hacker, or from someone proximal that is deliberately recording, so it's foolish to think that a device is solely listening for a keyword to activate is somehow digital evil incarnate, is ridiculous. You might as well get upset with Apple for creating SW that parses emails looking for contacts, calendar dates, addresses, emails, hyperlinks and phone numbers, but you don't because there has been around a long time so there is no irrational hysteria that Apple is somehow reading everything in your email. So why assume Hey Siri is recording everything you're saying? It makes no sense.
Yes, another revenue stream for Amazon. Upside for Amazon Fresh?
I mean, if I'm going to order something from Amazon, I want to research it first and at least see a photo of it. However, I don't need to research russet potatoes on Amazon before adding it to my cart.
Unless of course you give a shit whether it's made by Mother Nature or mansanto.
I wouldn't mention it because I don't think having a microphone (or web cam) in a room of my house is a big deal. Plus, again, these are very common in pretty much every household. Do you ask people if there are any microphones or cameras in the vicinity before you talk candidly?
You're sidestepping the question. I already know that YOU don't think it's a big deal. Are you 100% sure that all your friends (I'm already guessing by your responses that you don't have kids or a wife or S.O., but for most people they matter!) are okay with this? If you haven't asked, then you can't be sure.
Are you okay with people walking around at parties with google glass, staring in your face, recording you? Have you experienced this? I have, and it's a sickening feeling, especially if you don't really know the person. It's obviously perfectly fine in their opinion, just like sending audio off to the cloud from your private residence is fine with you. Think about others.
Are you okay with people you don't know coming up and giving you a hug? Frankly, that bothers me far less than the above, but I know people that are disablingly horrified by that behavior. The point is simply that there are societal norms about what is and is not okay in a social setting. I believe that if you are allowing friends to be recorded and have that data sent to the cloud (without explicitly asking) that you have crossed that boundary. Apparently you do not. I don't think we'll likely change each others' minds, but you really should ask people to be sure they agree with you.
To answer your question, if I knew someone had an Echo in their living room when I came to visit I would politely ask them to turn it off. If they were rude enough to refuse, then I would leave. Very simple. No one I know (to my knowledge!) has Siri running without doing the double-tap, and frankly, I've only seen one friend use Siri more than once or twice ever. It seems to be more of a "hey, look what I can do!", then forgotten. If someone I knew dropped their phone on the table in front of us and they had an always-on recording (anything, whether Siri or Facebook's bullshit stuff), I would ask them to turn it off as well.
You probably don't have friends that are as clear-cut and straightforward with their "rules for being polite" as I do. But seriously, it doesn't hurt to ask. Remember, it may not be your closest friends that have differing opinions, because people tend to hang with similar personality friends. More likely acquaintances or friends-of-friends.
If there was any conversation data being sent to and from your iPhone when plugged in with Hey Siri enabled I feel comforted that it would have been discovered right away. I have no trepidation with my iPhone in my bedroom and will no trepidation with my Echo in my kitchen.
Do you seriously think that you're aware of all the traffic that goes to and from your iPhone 24/7? Or even a fraction of it? I guess after all these years, I've given you more credit than you deserve. My bad, sorry. I work in this industry, I have tools that monitor stuff like this. Your phone, unless you have special tools to restrict it, is talking constantly to all kinds of servers all the time - Apple's and pretty much every app you use, whether in the foreground or not. There's little most people can do about it, short of not using these kinds of devices.
Apple's devices are vastly better than android in this regard, but unless you've tested Siri, you have no idea. FWIW, I have NOT tested Siri myself, personally, as I don't use it.
This fear because it listens is simply rational because it's not listening the way a person listens. It's only listening for a specific wave form. That's it. It's as safe as not having Hey Siri enabled and some outside entity (or even perhaps someone with access to your device) setting it up to record everything you say.
I'm really not following the first part of what you're saying, but there is perhaps a big point of understanding or clarification to be had here.
Does Hey Siri send any recorded data to Apple if you don't say "Hey Siri"? I don't know the answer to that because I haven't tested it myself. I would tend to trust Apple better than pretty much any other device manufacturer to not do this, but that's solely on reputation, not facts. One question to ask is whether these devices are good enough to detect all accents and voices without sending data to the "home office" for tweaking/testing and to improve the reliability over time. On the flip side of this coin, I don't trust amazon farther than I could throw their local data center. Their mindset in general is that everything about their customers is fair game for sending home for analysis, biometrics included. And yeah, I know several devs that are/were at amazon. It's a mindset. I would not trust an Echo at all without testing.
Given all of what you've said here, it doesn't sound like you'd care even if these devices were actually recording a live stream 24/7 and sending back to the home office for analysis, but I do think many people would care about that. The reality of what devices do is probably somewhere in the middle, and likely hugely different from manufacturer to manufacturer and device to device. It's only going to get harder to manage in the coming years as social norms get pushed around and beaten down by gadget lovers. I'm not looking forward to it.
I love the idea of a two-way intercom in every room of the house. Nice speakers for music built in and then a single omnidirectional microphone somewhere. For what would this be used? Wise Homes. Siri, but for all your appliances. And integrated with your portable devices and regular computer. Have the equivalent of a Mac Mini in the basement running the whole show (heck, build AirPort Extreme functionality into a Mac Mini equivalent).
“House,” you’d say to the open air, “bump up the heat a little.” And lo, it would happen.
“House,” as you cuddle with your sweetheart, “play Leap Year.” And the house would know into what microphone you were speaking. It would know that you’re in the living room, and so it would send Leap Year to your living room Apple TV via AirPlay, turning off the lights in the living room as it did so.
“House,” you’d say in the kitchen, “Preheat the oven to 450 and set the timer for 35 minutes after I open the door.” That way the timer starts automatically after you put whatever you’re cooking in.
House, have the coffee pot turn on at 4:45 every weekday. House, turn the porch light on. House, turn up the AC in my bedroom. And then all the existing Siri functions.
And for notifications? Perfect. Speaks them through the house’s speakers.
“Laundry’s done.” “Stove is preheated.” “Your boss is calling you. Want it through the speakers?”
BUT. I don’t want this connected to the Internet. I want all processing done locally. I don’t have any idea of the kind of storage needed to hold the programs used for STT and TTS, but I really want it all done locally. It’s not safe otherwise.
You're sidestepping the question. I already know that YOU don't think it's a big deal. Are you 100% sure that all your friends (I'm already guessing by your responses that you don't have kids or a wife or S.O., but for most people they matter!) are okay with this? If you haven't asked, then you can't be sure.
I think your position has become ridiculous. Why should I care if they have Hey Siri enabled on their iPhone? Since you're so concerned about it, have once asked anyone around you if they have Hey Siri enabled before you speak? Of course, not because it's a ridiculous thing to ask and it only listening for a particular wave form. I bet you also don't ask if someone isn't recording on some device or make people leave their electronic devices in some bin outside your door before entering, like you're some gangster with something to hid, because that, too, would be ridiculous… unless you are a gangster, then it would be prudent.
Your iDevices never connect to the Internet? You have no iPhone, iPad or iPod Touch? Seriously?!!!
Read more carefully! ;-) Sure I do, but they do not have open access to the internet at large. I control what/where/when/how all my devices connect to the outside world, and it's rare that I ever need my iDevices to connect to servers that are not under my direct control.
I started to type something about why I am so careful about this, but honestly, it's just not something that I'm going to discuss here.
... but I love that feature and want more automation in my home. If Apple made a bunch of $99 devices that was equitable to Echo I'd likely invest in them,
As I alluded earlier, I too would love to have more automation in my home. Seriously. The difference is that I will only use devices that never (cannot!) send data back to a manufacturer or any other data mining company. I do believe that where we will end up down the road is a hybrid model, where most automation and control is handled locally, but with some "leakage" and owner-managed outside access. Over time, devices like Nest (which got thoroughly trashed here on AI for these very reasons, after being purchased by google!) are going to get hacked, and I've read a lot recently that says most people really aren't cool with having that kind of data floating around. We'll see.
I can't remember now (too lazy to go digging), were you one of the few here that were okay with google owning Nest and having access to personal schedules, when they arrive and leave their homes, etc.?
so it's foolish to think that a device is solely listening for a keyword to activate is somehow digital evil incarnate, is ridiculous.
Strawman! Ignored! ;-)
You might as well get upset with Apple for creating SW that parses emails looking for contacts, calendar dates, addresses, emails, hyperlinks and phone numbers, but you don't because there has been around a long time so there is no irrational hysteria that Apple is somehow reading everything in your email. So why assume Hey Siri is recording everything you're saying? It makes no sense.
I don't use Apple's mail client, but even if I did, my mail clients are restricted in what they can do (certainly nothing cloud-based using anyone else's servers!), and they don't have any way to send information about my emails anywhere. Yes, I know this for a fact, trust me, this is what I do. That said, any analysis my mail client does locally on my computer(s) to assist me with marking or sorting is wonderful and appreciated!
Email in general, however, is a huge pain in the ass, and one of the biggest thorns in my life. It's appalling that most people think it's okay to send personal communications to 3rd party data-miners, who analyze it (and you) to death, then forward it to your friend/family/coworker. That's bullshit. I'm not going to get into how I deal with this. It's effective, but not fun, and not something most people would want or be able to do.
So why assume Hey Siri is recording everything you're saying? It makes no sense.
Never said I did, just that neither of us know this for a fact.
But, if I had to guess, my bet is that Echo will/does do this. If you order one, I'd love to see if you could verify or disprove it. Feel free to ping me here if you do get one.
[edit: sorry about the extra linefeeds, stupid huddler...]
I love the idea of a two-way intercom in every room of the house. Nice speakers for music built in and then a single omnidirectional microphone somewhere. For what would this be used? Wise Homes. Siri, but for all your appliances. And integrated with your portable devices and regular computer. Have the equivalent of a Mac Mini in the basement running the whole show (heck, build AirPort Extreme functionality into a Mac Mini equivalent).
“House,” you’d say to the open air, “bump up the heat a little.” And lo, it would happen.
“House,” as you cuddle with your sweetheart, “play Leap Year.” And the house would know into what microphone you were speaking. It would know that you’re in the living room, and so it would send Leap Year to your living room Apple TV via AirPlay, turning off the lights in the living room as it did so.
“House,” you’d say in the kitchen, “Preheat the oven to 450 and set the timer for 35 minutes after I open the door.” That way the timer starts automatically after you put whatever you’re cooking in.
House, have the coffee pot turn on at 4:45 every weekday. House, turn the porch light on. House, turn up the AC in my bedroom. And then all the existing Siri functions.
And for notifications? Perfect. Speaks them through the house’s speakers.
“Laundry’s done.” “Stove is preheated.” “Your boss is calling you. Want it through the speakers?”
BUT. I don’t want this connected to the Internet. I want all processing done locally. I don’t have any idea of the kind of storage needed to hold the programs used for STT and TTS, but I really want it all done locally. It’s not safe otherwise.
Dude! This ^^
Solip doesn't get it, I guess I'm done trying to explain. :-(
FYI, the storage and CPU to do this kind of thing is virtually nothing. You could do it with a 1st generation Mac mini. Or hell, you could do it with some of the <$100 linux boxes that are around now. It's the sensors and getting standards built around them (which HomeKit could really help with) which take time, effort and money. People do this stuff already, but it's too complicated for the average homeowner.
Sure I do, but they do not have open access to the internet at large. I control what/where/when/how all my devices connect to the outside world, and it's rare that I ever need my iDevices to connect to servers that are not under my direct control.
You have no more control over what happens with all your Internet connected CE with input devices tan you do with Hey Siri enabled or not. Again, it's foolish to think that you're somehow safe with Hey Siri disabled and then not with Hey Siri enabled. The risk level is the same, the only thing that changes is your perceptions, just as people become more cautious drivers immediately altering seeing an auto accident or getting a ticket. There isn't anything new to figure out here.
[edit: sorry about the extra linefeeds, stupid huddler...]
I think your position has become ridiculous. Why should I care if they have Hey Siri enabled on their iPhone? Since you're so concerned about it, have once asked anyone around you if they have Hey Siri enabled before you speak? Of course, not because it's a ridiculous thing to ask and it only listening for a particular wave form. I bet you also don't ask if someone isn't recording on some device or make people leave their electronic devices in some bin outside your door before entering, like you're some gangster with something to hid, because that, too, would be ridiculous… unless you are a gangster, then it would be prudent.
Remember, Eric-the-asshat Schmidt was lambasted for his "If you have something that you don’t want anyone to know maybe you shouldn’t be doing it in the first place" comment.
If you think the only reason to be careful about personal data mining is because you're a gangster, then I'm not sure what to say. Be happy your life is simple. Not the case for everyone, and you should consider that your life can be turned upside down in a heartbeat. Clearly you don't get it, but I heartily suggest not being callous about others' needs.
Solip doesn't get it, I guess I'm done trying to explain.
Then you won't use Siri at all if you want all the processing down locally. No one has once said you have to use it, and I'm pretty sure this is both the first time you mentioned this concern and that your original comment had absolutely nothing to do with the Siri service requiring an Internet connection to operate.
I've mentioned many times that I wish Siri had local access for the things that truly are local (like contacts, music, calendar and reminders) and that I wish Siri was intelligent enough to be able to discern which was local and which required an Internet connection, but I like Siri and want Siri, or a Siri-like service, working for me even more in my life. Hey Siri is especially great in the car. It even works over music playing to alter tracks without taking my eyes of the road or hands off the wheel, and I look forward to Echo being able to accept my Hey Siri commands in the kitchen.
Yosemite DP1 and everything after, dum de dum... copying and pasting text into the box, dum de dum... text completely ignores where the cursor is and goes to the beginning of the box, doot dee doo...
Yosemite DP1 and everything after, dum de dum... copying and pasting text into the box, dum de dum... text completely ignores where the cursor is and goes to the beginning of the box, doot dee doo...
You're the one who has jumped on me for wanting Echo, not the other way around.
At this point it's only because you refuse to consider that others might not be okay with it. I could care less what you do with it in your own home if you're the only one to ever step foot there. Clearly that's your own business.
That, and seemingly not understanding how much data leakage happens in reality. Most people are in complete denial about this, I just figured you would understand, even if you don't care.
At this point it's only because you refuse to consider that others might not be okay with it. I could care less what you do with it in your own home if you're the only one to ever step foot there. Clearly that's your own business.
That, and seemingly not understanding how much data leakage happens in reality. Most people are in complete denial about this, I just figured you would understand, even if you don't care.
1) Refuse? I've repeatedly stated you have the right to keep Hey Siri and Siri disabled. At what point did I ever say you should be forced to use Siri?
2) If you could[sic] care less about what I do in my own home then why try so hard to paint a service I enjoy as being digital evil incarnate?
3) I think you et al. read Amazon and listening and jumped to a conclusion that you didn't consider with any other CE with keyboard, mouse, displays, cameras, or microphones that surround you every day.
Comments
1) GG backs up his arguments well so I take that as a complement.
2) With my iPhone plugged-in in my bedroom at night, what's the difference?
1) GG *sometimes* backs up his arguments well. He's clearly a smart guy, and is a skilled persuasive writer, but too often his "argument" is simply: "other companies do it too", which is no argument at all.
2) This is essentially what you've done here. It's not that Echo is any worse than the way it sounds like you have your iPhone configured. It's that they're both bad. Or at the very least something that should require very careful consideration, depending on individual situations, and enabled/disabled depending on location/circumstances.
For example, you didn't respond to 2 separate questions above:
1) Are you married? Kids? Have guests over? Are you going to tell them that Amazon has a "listening device" running in your home?
There's a TON of (mostly justified, IMO) grousing about google's data collection here on this forum, and while I know you're not one of the main grumblers, it's not like amazon is any better. google at least pretends to care about securing people's personal data while they hoover it up for their own use at ever-increasing rates. I don't feel like amazon even does that much. Anyone using a device like this should expect that anything and everything they say at any time has a good chance of being gathered, analyzed and stored in perpetuity by both commercial and government interests. If you're cool with that, then this portion of the argument is moot. Potentially recording others is another story entirely.
If he or anyone makes makes an easy answer then respond to it, but that's not what I've done here. I clearly stated I don't have an issue with neither Echo nor Siri listening at all time for a specific command. I also stated that it's silly to assume that because one is designed to listen for a specific word phrase it's recording and sending back everything you say, just as it's silly to assume that's happening at all with the dozens of microphones you surely are around each day. Why single out the one unlikely scenario and not the other? Because you know Siri is listening for "Hey Siri" means nothing. It's only irrational fear that anyone would assume that must be nefarious but the out-of-sight-out-of-mind solution is surely above board.
I wouldn't mention it because I don't think having a microphone (or web cam) in a room of my house is a big deal. Plus, again, these are very common in pretty much every household. Do you ask people if there are any microphones or cameras in the vicinity before you talk candidly?
If there was any conversation data being sent to and from your iPhone when plugged in with Hey Siri enabled I feel comforted that it would have been discovered right away. I have no trepidation with my iPhone in my bedroom and will no trepidation with my Echo in my kitchen.
This fear because it listens is simply rational because it's not listening the way a person listens. It's only listening for a specific wave form. That's it. It's as safe as not having Hey Siri enabled and some outside entity (or even perhaps someone with access to your device) setting it up to record everything you say.
It's call a "iPhone 4s" that use as a remote in my living room.
How is it different? I enabled Hey Siri because I want that feature in my bedroom and I will purchase Echo because I want to be able to say "Hey Siri' in my kitchen without having to plug in my iPhone every time I'm in the kitchen or buy an iPod Touch specifically for that task. No matter how you slice it I'm purposely choosing to have this feature in a specific room in my house.
Your iDevices never connect to the Internet? You have no iPhone, iPad or iPod Touch? :???: Seriously?!!!
If you don't want to enable Hey Siri on an iOS-based device then so be it. I'm not here to convince you to do so, but I love that feature and want more automation in my home. If Apple made a bunch of $99 devices that was equitable to Echo I'd likely invest in them, but they don't, so instead I'll be saying "Hey Siri" to Echo, which despite the countless comments saying you can tell it which command in which to respond [@]fallenjt[/@] says you can't do.
The bottom line is this: if you around an Android, Apple, Amazon, LG, HTC, Samsung, or whatever other device around you — not necessarily your own device — you can't be sure it's not recording what you say, either by accident or on purpose, from the HW maker, SW maker, a hacker, or from someone proximal that is deliberately recording, so it's foolish to think that a device is solely listening for a keyword to activate is somehow digital evil incarnate, is ridiculous. You might as well get upset with Apple for creating SW that parses emails looking for contacts, calendar dates, addresses, emails, hyperlinks and phone numbers, but you don't because there has been around a long time so there is no irrational hysteria that Apple is somehow reading everything in your email. So why assume Hey Siri is recording everything you're saying? It makes no sense.
Yes, another revenue stream for Amazon. Upside for Amazon Fresh?
I mean, if I'm going to order something from Amazon, I want to research it first and at least see a photo of it. However, I don't need to research russet potatoes on Amazon before adding it to my cart.
Unless of course you give a shit whether it's made by Mother Nature or mansanto.
I wouldn't mention it because I don't think having a microphone (or web cam) in a room of my house is a big deal. Plus, again, these are very common in pretty much every household. Do you ask people if there are any microphones or cameras in the vicinity before you talk candidly?
You're sidestepping the question. I already know that YOU don't think it's a big deal. Are you 100% sure that all your friends (I'm already guessing by your responses that you don't have kids or a wife or S.O., but for most people they matter!) are okay with this? If you haven't asked, then you can't be sure.
Are you okay with people walking around at parties with google glass, staring in your face, recording you? Have you experienced this? I have, and it's a sickening feeling, especially if you don't really know the person. It's obviously perfectly fine in their opinion, just like sending audio off to the cloud from your private residence is fine with you. Think about others.
Are you okay with people you don't know coming up and giving you a hug? Frankly, that bothers me far less than the above, but I know people that are disablingly horrified by that behavior. The point is simply that there are societal norms about what is and is not okay in a social setting. I believe that if you are allowing friends to be recorded and have that data sent to the cloud (without explicitly asking) that you have crossed that boundary. Apparently you do not. I don't think we'll likely change each others' minds, but you really should ask people to be sure they agree with you.
To answer your question, if I knew someone had an Echo in their living room when I came to visit I would politely ask them to turn it off. If they were rude enough to refuse, then I would leave. Very simple. No one I know (to my knowledge!) has Siri running without doing the double-tap, and frankly, I've only seen one friend use Siri more than once or twice ever. It seems to be more of a "hey, look what I can do!", then forgotten. If someone I knew dropped their phone on the table in front of us and they had an always-on recording (anything, whether Siri or Facebook's bullshit stuff), I would ask them to turn it off as well.
You probably don't have friends that are as clear-cut and straightforward with their "rules for being polite" as I do. But seriously, it doesn't hurt to ask. Remember, it may not be your closest friends that have differing opinions, because people tend to hang with similar personality friends. More likely acquaintances or friends-of-friends.
Do you seriously think that you're aware of all the traffic that goes to and from your iPhone 24/7? Or even a fraction of it? I guess after all these years, I've given you more credit than you deserve. My bad, sorry. I work in this industry, I have tools that monitor stuff like this. Your phone, unless you have special tools to restrict it, is talking constantly to all kinds of servers all the time - Apple's and pretty much every app you use, whether in the foreground or not. There's little most people can do about it, short of not using these kinds of devices.
Apple's devices are vastly better than android in this regard, but unless you've tested Siri, you have no idea. FWIW, I have NOT tested Siri myself, personally, as I don't use it.
I'm really not following the first part of what you're saying, but there is perhaps a big point of understanding or clarification to be had here.
Does Hey Siri send any recorded data to Apple if you don't say "Hey Siri"? I don't know the answer to that because I haven't tested it myself. I would tend to trust Apple better than pretty much any other device manufacturer to not do this, but that's solely on reputation, not facts. One question to ask is whether these devices are good enough to detect all accents and voices without sending data to the "home office" for tweaking/testing and to improve the reliability over time. On the flip side of this coin, I don't trust amazon farther than I could throw their local data center. Their mindset in general is that everything about their customers is fair game for sending home for analysis, biometrics included. And yeah, I know several devs that are/were at amazon. It's a mindset. I would not trust an Echo at all without testing.
Given all of what you've said here, it doesn't sound like you'd care even if these devices were actually recording a live stream 24/7 and sending back to the home office for analysis, but I do think many people would care about that. The reality of what devices do is probably somewhere in the middle, and likely hugely different from manufacturer to manufacturer and device to device. It's only going to get harder to manage in the coming years as social norms get pushed around and beaten down by gadget lovers. I'm not looking forward to it.
Here’s my take.
I love the idea of a two-way intercom in every room of the house. Nice speakers for music built in and then a single omnidirectional microphone somewhere. For what would this be used? Wise Homes. Siri, but for all your appliances. And integrated with your portable devices and regular computer. Have the equivalent of a Mac Mini in the basement running the whole show (heck, build AirPort Extreme functionality into a Mac Mini equivalent).
“House,” you’d say to the open air, “bump up the heat a little.” And lo, it would happen.
“House,” as you cuddle with your sweetheart, “play Leap Year.” And the house would know into what microphone you were speaking. It would know that you’re in the living room, and so it would send Leap Year to your living room Apple TV via AirPlay, turning off the lights in the living room as it did so.
“House,” you’d say in the kitchen, “Preheat the oven to 450 and set the timer for 35 minutes after I open the door.” That way the timer starts automatically after you put whatever you’re cooking in.
House, have the coffee pot turn on at 4:45 every weekday. House, turn the porch light on. House, turn up the AC in my bedroom. And then all the existing Siri functions.
And for notifications? Perfect. Speaks them through the house’s speakers.
“Laundry’s done.” “Stove is preheated.” “Your boss is calling you. Want it through the speakers?”
BUT. I don’t want this connected to the Internet. I want all processing done locally. I don’t have any idea of the kind of storage needed to hold the programs used for STT and TTS, but I really want it all done locally. It’s not safe otherwise.
I think your position has become ridiculous. Why should I care if they have Hey Siri enabled on their iPhone? Since you're so concerned about it, have once asked anyone around you if they have Hey Siri enabled before you speak? Of course, not because it's a ridiculous thing to ask and it only listening for a particular wave form. I bet you also don't ask if someone isn't recording on some device or make people leave their electronic devices in some bin outside your door before entering, like you're some gangster with something to hid, because that, too, would be ridiculous… unless you are a gangster, then it would be prudent.
Your iDevices never connect to the Internet? You have no iPhone, iPad or iPod Touch?
Read more carefully! ;-) Sure I do, but they do not have open access to the internet at large. I control what/where/when/how all my devices connect to the outside world, and it's rare that I ever need my iDevices to connect to servers that are not under my direct control.
I started to type something about why I am so careful about this, but honestly, it's just not something that I'm going to discuss here.
I don't use Apple's mail client, but even if I did, my mail clients are restricted in what they can do (certainly nothing cloud-based using anyone else's servers!), and they don't have any way to send information about my emails anywhere. Yes, I know this for a fact, trust me, this is what I do. That said, any analysis my mail client does locally on my computer(s) to assist me with marking or sorting is wonderful and appreciated!
Email in general, however, is a huge pain in the ass, and one of the biggest thorns in my life. It's appalling that most people think it's okay to send personal communications to 3rd party data-miners, who analyze it (and you) to death, then forward it to your friend/family/coworker. That's bullshit. I'm not going to get into how I deal with this. It's effective, but not fun, and not something most people would want or be able to do.
Never said I did, just that neither of us know this for a fact.
But, if I had to guess, my bet is that Echo will/does do this. If you order one, I'd love to see if you could verify or disprove it. Feel free to ping me here if you do get one.
[edit: sorry about the extra linefeeds, stupid huddler...]
Here’s my take.
I love the idea of a two-way intercom in every room of the house. Nice speakers for music built in and then a single omnidirectional microphone somewhere. For what would this be used? Wise Homes. Siri, but for all your appliances. And integrated with your portable devices and regular computer. Have the equivalent of a Mac Mini in the basement running the whole show (heck, build AirPort Extreme functionality into a Mac Mini equivalent).
“House,” you’d say to the open air, “bump up the heat a little.” And lo, it would happen.
“House,” as you cuddle with your sweetheart, “play Leap Year.” And the house would know into what microphone you were speaking. It would know that you’re in the living room, and so it would send Leap Year to your living room Apple TV via AirPlay, turning off the lights in the living room as it did so.
“House,” you’d say in the kitchen, “Preheat the oven to 450 and set the timer for 35 minutes after I open the door.” That way the timer starts automatically after you put whatever you’re cooking in.
House, have the coffee pot turn on at 4:45 every weekday. House, turn the porch light on. House, turn up the AC in my bedroom. And then all the existing Siri functions.
And for notifications? Perfect. Speaks them through the house’s speakers.
“Laundry’s done.” “Stove is preheated.” “Your boss is calling you. Want it through the speakers?”
BUT. I don’t want this connected to the Internet. I want all processing done locally. I don’t have any idea of the kind of storage needed to hold the programs used for STT and TTS, but I really want it all done locally. It’s not safe otherwise.
Dude! This ^^
Solip doesn't get it, I guess I'm done trying to explain. :-(
FYI, the storage and CPU to do this kind of thing is virtually nothing. You could do it with a 1st generation Mac mini. Or hell, you could do it with some of the <$100 linux boxes that are around now. It's the sensors and getting standards built around them (which HomeKit could really help with) which take time, effort and money. People do this stuff already, but it's too complicated for the average homeowner.
You have no more control over what happens with all your Internet connected CE with input devices tan you do with Hey Siri enabled or not. Again, it's foolish to think that you're somehow safe with Hey Siri disabled and then not with Hey Siri enabled. The risk level is the same, the only thing that changes is your perceptions, just as people become more cautious drivers immediately altering seeing an auto accident or getting a ticket. There isn't anything new to figure out here.
That's on you for using the rich text editor.
I think your position has become ridiculous. Why should I care if they have Hey Siri enabled on their iPhone? Since you're so concerned about it, have once asked anyone around you if they have Hey Siri enabled before you speak? Of course, not because it's a ridiculous thing to ask and it only listening for a particular wave form. I bet you also don't ask if someone isn't recording on some device or make people leave their electronic devices in some bin outside your door before entering, like you're some gangster with something to hid, because that, too, would be ridiculous… unless you are a gangster, then it would be prudent.
Remember, Eric-the-asshat Schmidt was lambasted for his "If you have something that you don’t want anyone to know maybe you shouldn’t be doing it in the first place" comment.
If you think the only reason to be careful about personal data mining is because you're a gangster, then I'm not sure what to say. Be happy your life is simple. Not the case for everyone, and you should consider that your life can be turned upside down in a heartbeat. Clearly you don't get it, but I heartily suggest not being callous about others' needs.
Then you won't use Siri at all if you want all the processing down locally. No one has once said you have to use it, and I'm pretty sure this is both the first time you mentioned this concern and that your original comment had absolutely nothing to do with the Siri service requiring an Internet connection to operate.
I've mentioned many times that I wish Siri had local access for the things that truly are local (like contacts, music, calendar and reminders) and that I wish Siri was intelligent enough to be able to discern which was local and which required an Internet connection, but I like Siri and want Siri, or a Siri-like service, working for me even more in my life. Hey Siri is especially great in the car. It even works over music playing to alter tracks without taking my eyes of the road or hands off the wheel, and I look forward to Echo being able to accept my Hey Siri commands in the kitchen.
You're the one who has jumped on me for wanting Echo, not the other way around.
Yosemite DP1 and everything after, dum de dum... copying and pasting text into the box, dum de dum... text completely ignores where the cursor is and goes to the beginning of the box, doot dee doo...
FRIGGING HUDDLER.
I really do wish I'd seen what you wrote before you deleted it. lol.
Why would anyone be on Yosemite DP1?
At this point it's only because you refuse to consider that others might not be okay with it. I could care less what you do with it in your own home if you're the only one to ever step foot there. Clearly that's your own business.
That, and seemingly not understanding how much data leakage happens in reality. Most people are in complete denial about this, I just figured you would understand, even if you don't care.
1) Refuse? I've repeatedly stated you have the right to keep Hey Siri and Siri disabled. At what point did I ever say you should be forced to use Siri?
2) If you could[sic] care less about what I do in my own home then why try so hard to paint a service I enjoy as being digital evil incarnate?
3) I think you et al. read Amazon and listening and jumped to a conclusion that you didn't consider with any other CE with keyboard, mouse, displays, cameras, or microphones that surround you every day.