Apple Inc. A8X iPad chip causing big problems for Intel, Qualcomm, Samsung and Nvidia

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  • Reply 21 of 251
    rogifanrogifan Posts: 10,669member
    This is great. Now can Apple focus on software bugs? WiFi is still wonky in 8.1, my keyboard still randomly freezes in Safari, text selection is still messed up and I get random reboots where all of a sudden I see a white screen with black Apple logo. This is all on my iPad Air 2, but WiFi and text selection also are issues on my 5s. We know Apple kicks ass when it comes to hardware. I would love to see them get that good at software too.
  • Reply 22 of 251
    ksecksec Posts: 1,569member

    Even though the performance of A8X comes with a bit of surprise, it is still quite far off compared to Intel Broadwell.

     

    Next year 2015 will be 10 years since Apple announced to switch to Intel. ( If you think about it and the state of Apple were then, compared to what they are now.... ), and 2016 they started to ship Mac with Intel CPU.

     

    I guess a better IPC, Quad Core with 16 cluster of PowerVR7 A9X should work out fine next year. 

  • Reply 23 of 251
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,338member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

     

     

    Chip Causes Consternation; Competitors Confounded, Chagrined.


    "A8X most gorgeous tablet chip ever" would be how BGR would link bait this.

     

    I for one, would wish this obsession with "gorgeous" in so called tech journalism would end. 

  • Reply 24 of 251
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,338member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Relic View Post



    I'm not sure what this article is trying to convey other than manufactures should just pack it in and give up. I quite like my iPad, it serves my purposes for certain tasks such as music creation perfectly, but I don't think I would like to use it for all of my tablet needs, especially not being unable to run multiple apps in the background, which would more than likely drive me nuts. So I'm extremely happy to have choice that will give me those things that the iPad doesn't offer. regardless of DED's biased feelings on the matter. As long as manufactures continue to make decent products with decent hardware and software, I just don't see what the big deal is if it's not as fast as the iPad, the majority of people don't even know what to do with this power anyway. Example; the Nokia 2520 mentioned in the article isn't as fast as the current iPad but it's more than quick enough for the software it's running and it get's 11 hours on a charge, 16 when the keyboard is plugged in, it's also one of my favorite gadgets, so much so that I bought 2 for when(if) my current one fails. The article also fails to mention that these companies are just now getting into 64Bit computing, the Nvidia chip that DED loves to belittle is just the first of many to be introduced, the quad core variant is expected to be released in Q1 of 2015. Current K1 64Bit benchmarks have shown it to hold it's own just fine when paired up against the dual core variant of the A8, add another 2 cores and it will be just as fast, if not faster than the A8X as the K1's 64Bit single core benchmarks suggest. Even if it isn't, I still don't see what the problem is, why does everything have to faster than Apple's A8x to be considered decent in DED's eyes. I have been using the K1 32Bit variant for about 6 months now, it's an incredible chip and again as long as manufactures keep producing decent products using these chips, like the Nokia 2520, I will continue to purchase them. So I get it DED, in your opinion nothing is better than Apple but that doesn't mean others can't produce decent products as well or at least try, it's like he wants everyone to fail.

    Performance metrics ignoring performance/watt is a failed game in mobile, so by definition, A8X is > than K1. Sure, throw a bigger battery at the K1 and there's performance equivalence, but that won't facilitate the K1 moving into smartphones, and hence the small volumes aren't going to provide much profit for Nvidia. While you boast of multiple background apps in your Android device, Apple has of Metal and Swift which together will provide a substantial increase in the gaming experience.

     

    Now you could argue that Apple "cheats" by designs with much larger die comparative to the competition, but that comes with winning the profit game. Lather/rinse/repeat, Nvidia is losing this game.

  • Reply 25 of 251
    shompashompa Posts: 343member
    I pray for the day that we will leave the ancient X86 behind us.
    Real computers have used 64bit since 1990. Not because of %u201C4gig%u201D memory that most %u201CIT experts%u201D believe. No... 64bit run rightly compiled code faster than 32bit code.

    X86 dont have real 64bit. It uses 64bit extensions. That leads to the absurd thing that X32 code Vs X64 code on X86 leads to performance decrease. Look at windows benchmarks. 64bit code run 3% slower than 32bit. Compare that to benchmarks on A7 where 64bit code run 20% faster than 32bit version.

    Intel have abused its monopoly since 2006. Moores%u2019s law is dead because of Intels greediness. Something that is biting Intel today where Intel have lost all the low power market.

    Compare to graphic chips. Nvidia and AMD compete. Todays high end GPUs have die sizes over 500mm2. Intels 15 core Xeon is smaller. Intel can produce their 15 core CPU for less than Nvidia/AMD produces GPUs that are sold for 500 dollars. If Intel had competition we would have 10 core intels in desktops. Only reason is that Intel loves to charge 4400 dollars for their high end Xeons.

    Year after year Intel bumps their desktop speeds 5-7%. Thats why a 5 year old PC still works without problem (cpu). Compare that to ARM where we have competition. 2007-2014: Intel have increased speed 50%. At the same time ARM/AppleA series have increased 4000% in speed. (check Anantech for the benchmarks)

    The most absurd is this: Apple pay 15 dollar for a A8 SoC. An X86 ULV CPU in Air for example is not faster but it cost over 500 dollars with CPU/Intel motherboard.

    So why don%u2019t our Macs have Apple A SoCs?

    The sad fact is this. Companies make money on marginals. The higher the price the more profit they make even if Intel takes an absurd chunk of the money.
    Its more fun to have 30% margin on a 1K Mac instead of 40% margin on a 500 dollar mac.

    I am not much for government involvement.
    But for humanity it would be great if Intel was forced to license X86 to more companies to get some competition. (for the sad truth is this: X86 have never been best/fastest. It have always been good enough and had Windows.)

    Apple should still use fat binaries so we could buy macs with PPC /Arms. For people who have owned PPC macs and X86 know this: X86 is toys. They break. I know of zero PPC macs that broke but every single X86 mac breaks within 3 years...
  • Reply 26 of 251
    MacProMacPro Posts: 19,727member
    It's almost scary, how proficient Apple's gotten at semiconductor design. And if you look at the specs and design of the A7 and A8, it's clear their team is gunning for Intel, not the other ARM manufacturers. And they're beating the pants off of everyone on a performance-per-watt basis.

    As far as the baseband chips go, I think Apple's primary goal for that is to design the most power efficient chips ever made, for use in the Apple Watch. It's just a matter of time before they make the Watch fully independent.

    And...I still think we may see Macs with A-series chips one day. The A9 should be a tick, bringing us an all new CPU core (Swift>Cyclone>Hurricane?) on a 20nm process. Its not as hard to emulate X86 code on ARM as you might expect, especially since Intel's chips haven't even processed true CISC instructions since the Pentium Pro. But an Intel chip retails for hundreds of dollars, vs much less for their own chips. And Apple is one P&L, they wouldn't have to sell them to themselves for a profit.

    The Pro Macs might stay with Intel chips, no reason a MacBook SuperAir couldn't be ARM based though.

    I wonder if Apple could simply use multiple A9s or whatever, to power a laptop, to get the power needed for a variant of OS X? Like they used dual G5s in towers.
  • Reply 27 of 251
    MacProMacPro Posts: 19,727member
    rogifan wrote: »
    This is great. Now can Apple focus on software bugs? WiFi is still wonky in 8.1, my keyboard still randomly freezes in Safari, text selection is still messed up and I get random reboots where all of a sudden I see a white screen with black Apple logo. This is all on my iPad Air 2, but WiFi and text selection also are issues on my 5s. We know Apple kicks ass when it comes to hardware. I would love to see them get that good at software too.

    In my immediate family we have 9 iPads and countless iPhones ranging from older to the latest and all running 8.1. Not once have we ever seen a 'random reboot'. What software are you running when your iDevice auto reboots? Not had any noticeable wifi issues either.
  • Reply 28 of 251
    MacProMacPro Posts: 19,727member
    I imagine that Sony is slowly looking over its shoulder and pulling at its collar as it nervously glances as its PSP lineup. And though Microsoft never entered the handheld department, the A9 might make them get hot and bothered regarding the performance of the Xbone.


    Why don’t I own any?! Need to educate myself on the best way to go about it.

    If serious, you are both crazy not to have owned AAPL. It has been obvious to anyone following tech news, since APPL was $50-$100 (pre split!) that is was a ride worth taking ... and holding on tight for the long run ... :smokey:
  • Reply 29 of 251
    MacProMacPro Posts: 19,727member
    Great article DED. As always you nail down so many lose ends. I enjoy forwarding such articles to my various Apple-hating friends :D
  • Reply 30 of 251
    apple ][ wrote: »
     
    <span style="line-height:1.4em;">Why don’t I own</span>
    <em style="line-height:1.4em;">any</em>
    <span style="line-height:1.4em;">?! Need to educate myself on the best way to go about it.</span>

    (1) Open an account with a broker, like E-trade or Scottrade or Ameritrade or whomever you please

    (2) Transfer over some money to fund your account

    (3) Purchase X amount of shares of AAPL when you feel the time is right

    (4) sit back and relax

    (5) profit

    Here in England, we can invest £15,000 (about $25,000) a year tax free. Shares are a great way to invest it, as there is no tax to pay on any profits.
  • Reply 31 of 251
    rogifan wrote: »
    This is great. Now can Apple focus on software bugs? WiFi is still wonky in 8.1, my keyboard still randomly freezes in Safari, text selection is still messed up and I get random reboots where all of a sudden I see a white screen with black Apple logo. This is all on my iPad Air 2, but WiFi and text selection also are issues on my 5s. We know Apple kicks ass when it comes to hardware. I would love to see them get that good at software too.

    I have yet to have a reboot on my iPad Air 2. My iPhone 5, though, has been rebooting daily. I wonder if it's to do with how full the storage is. My iPhone is pretty full, about 59 GB used on 64GB capacity, whereas my iPad is only half full, with about 60 GB free.

    I agree, anyway; 8.1.1 can't come soon enough. I think there's a memory leak causing the reboots.
  • Reply 32 of 251
    I wonder if Apple could simply use multiple A9s or whatever, to power a laptop, to get the power needed for a variant of OS X? Like they used dual G5s in towers.

    I expect they would, at the very least two of them. OS X is very SMP friendly, so it makes sense to have two or three chips under the hood.

    Heck the classic MacOS ran on four processors at one point (not well, obviously, but Photoshop loved it)
  • Reply 33 of 251
    evilutionevilution Posts: 1,399member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by aBeliefSystem View Post



    The reality is that whilst both nVidia and Octacore chips are technically many a mile ahead of Apples usage of ARM, it is Apple who have the lowest costs but biggest bull..



    Yet they are slower, more power hungry and worse with memory than Apple chips. If that makes them "a mile ahead" then clearly it's not Apple with the biggest bull.

  • Reply 34 of 251
    rogifanrogifan Posts: 10,669member
    In my immediate family we have 9 iPads and countless iPhones ranging from older to the latest and all running 8.1. Not once have we ever seen a 'random reboot'. What software are you running when your iDevice auto reboots? Not had any noticeable wifi issues either.

    I'm running 8.1 on both my phone and Air 2. On my iPhone I use a Twitter app called Hootiesuite and more often than not I have to turn off WiFi to get my feed to refresh or see conversations. I'd blame it on the app except I never had problems prior to updating to iOS 8. Another issue I'm having is with copy/paste. I already mentioned that text selection is messed up. But also if I copy something and try to paste it into a post here the typical long press doesn't always work. Sometimes I'll long press and the select/select all/paste controls show up but other times they just briefly flash on the screen and then disappear and in order to get them to show I have to do a really long press (5-10 seconds) to get them to show up. Also Siri for dictation isn't always reliable. Sometimes I'll say something and it doesn't capture it on screen until I'm completely finished, other times the words show up on the screen as I'm speaking and still there are other times where the words that show up on the screen while I'm speaking aren't what I said (so I'm assuming Siri heard me wrong) but when I tap done the words change and match what I said (I guess Siri did understand me after all).

    These are all minor things but they add up to a less than great UX. So while what Apple is doing on the hardware side is great and best in class their software leaves much to be desired right now. In fact over at the Mac Observer John Martellaro says iTunes 12 is Apple's worst piece of software ever and should go in the garbage: http://www.macobserver.com/tmo/review/apples-itunes-12-is-apples-worst-software-ever-should-be-withdrawn

    Apple software needs a lot more focus IMO. I'd be perfectly fine if there was no iOS 9 or it was just a snow leopard version of iOS 8.
  • Reply 35 of 251
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by shompa View Post



    I pray for the day that we will leave the ancient X86 behind us.

    Real computers have used 64bit since 1990. Not because of %u201C4gig%u201D memory that most %u201CIT experts%u201D believe. No... 64bit run rightly compiled code faster than 32bit code.



    X86 dont have real 64bit. It uses 64bit extensions. That leads to the absurd thing that X32 code Vs X64 code on X86 leads to performance decrease. Look at windows benchmarks. 64bit code run 3% slower than 32bit. Compare that to benchmarks on A7 where 64bit code run 20% faster than 32bit version.

     


    [...]know this: X86 is toys. They break. I know of zero PPC macs that broke but every single X86 mac breaks within 3 years...

    I think that latter statement is less about the cpu chip and more about the tradeoffs between lightness and toughness.

     

    As for your first point... I think everyone is missing a key point, but you are closest 

     

    Why does a Mac need to be x86?  It doesn't   It's nice to be x86 for those few people who want to run BootCamp or PC emulators.

     

    But ARM can emulate x86 (much like current Intel really emulates 486)... and with Apple's efficiencies in xMP computing (grand central) it can easily use 2-4 SoCs and run OSX just fine.

     

    In a few years, there will be more iPads and iPhones than WintTel PCs.   At that point, the value proposition for 'backwards compatibility' will be backwards to your iPad Air 3. or your iPhone Xs+.

     

    I've argued that a underlying value of the A series is that there is a Mac OSX laptop or 5 built using Aseries chips... and they are brought out every time Intel stops by and asks for Apple's Chip order.   Apple then gets a better discount and more design input into the x86 roadmap.

    But like the Power Series, I think that Apple's demands will outpace its suppliers, and in about 3 years, the Macbook Air or Mac Mini will be sold with an Aseries chip.

     

    And in about 7 years, the entire concept of CMOS and RISC will need to be refactored anyway.  By 2025, we'll be hitting the 'nanometer' wall, where you won't be able to get your etches any smaller, and either quantum or some other manner of transistor construction will need to be employed.   Will Apple be able to buy a company to transform them into this new world? 

  • Reply 36 of 251
    rogifan wrote: »
    I'm running 8.1 on both my phone and Air 2. On my iPhone I use a Twitter app called Hootiesuite and more often than not I have to turn off WiFi to get my feed to refresh or see conversations. I'd blame it on the app except I never had problems prior to updating to iOS 8. Another issue I'm having is with copy/paste. I already mentioned that text selection is messed up. But also if I copy something and try to paste it into a post here the typical long press doesn't always work. Sometimes I'll long press and the select/select all/paste controls show up but other times they just briefly flash on the screen and then disappear and in order to get them to show I have to do a really long press (5-10 seconds) to get them to show up. Also Siri for dictation isn't always reliable. Sometimes I'll say something and it doesn't capture it on screen until I'm completely finished, other times the words show up on the screen as I'm speaking and still there are other times where the words that show up on the screen while I'm speaking aren't what I said (so I'm assuming Siri heard me wrong) but when I tap done the words change and match what I said (I guess Siri did understand me after all).

    These are all minor things but they add up to a less than great UX. So while what Apple is doing on the hardware side is great and best in class their software leaves much to be desired right now. In fact over at the Mac Observer John Martellaro says iTunes 12 is Apple's worst piece of software ever and should go in the garbage: http://www.macobserver.com/tmo/review/apples-itunes-12-is-apples-worst-software-ever-should-be-withdrawn

    Apple software needs a lot more focus IMO. I'd be perfectly fine if there was no iOS 9 or it was just a snow leopard version of iOS 8.

    I haven't had an issue with iTunes 12, and I'm running it on some of the slowest hardware possible (2008 MBA).

    The issue with the cop/paste controls, the fix is to hit the space bar and then the backspace, it seems to work to get it to stop glitching out, that or just select in a different area.

    Siri's dictation has been great for me, I'm always amazed at how well it works. I've messed around with dictation software for years, Siri gets me about 99.5% of the time.

    Let's see what iOS 8.1.1 does, I think it'll fix most of the bugs.
  • Reply 37 of 251
    I see Relic is back with his usual useless posts. How come you keep talking shit and then run away after you've been proven wrong? I have pointed out errors in your logic on the Denver K1 several times and you're back spouting the same garbage AGAIN?

    The Denver K1 does not live up to the hype. Since you don't seem to get it, I'll go over the main reasons why once more.

    - Nvidia was extensively hyping up their Dynamc Code Optimization of the K1. They clam this allows the K1 to perform more instructions per clock by looking far ahead in the code to optimize the instructions (short, layman version).
    - The K1 is 7 wide (the A7/8/8X are 6 wide). Again, a wider processor is capable (if the instructions are properly ordered) of doing more work per clock.

    Notice anything? Here it is again: The K1 is designed to do the most possible work PER CLOCK CYCLE. So how does it compare to Apples A7/A8?

    According to Geekbench, here are the numbers adjusted to a 1.0GHz clock. Why would I adjust to a common clock speed? Because Nvida themselves talk EXTENSIVELY about how the K1 is capable of outperforming other ARM architectures because it uses technology to allow it to get more work done per clock cycle.

    A7 - 1070
    A8 - 1142
    K1 - 760/880**

    The K1 sucks. Period. All that talk of more performance per clock and it's still WAY BEHIND an A7 from one year ago. It gets its performance using the same tricks Qualcomm does - by cranking up the clock speed.


    ** The 760 represents the average common test. There are some K1's testing substantially higher, so not sure if these are tweaked or modified Android versions. I included both sets of results.
  • Reply 38 of 251
    rogifanrogifan Posts: 10,669member
    I haven't had an issue with iTunes 12, and I'm running it on some of the slowest hardware possible (2008 MBA).

    The issue with the cop/paste controls, the fix is to hit the space bar and then the backspace, it seems to work to get it to stop glitching out, that or just select in a different area.

    Siri's dictation has been great for me, I'm always amazed at how well it works. I've messed around with dictation software for years, Siri gets me about 99.5% of the time.

    Let's see what iOS 8.1.1 does, I think it'll fix most of the bugs.

    I hope so. Some of the bugs are minor but annoying as hell.
  • Reply 39 of 251

    Innovative disruption

  • Reply 40 of 251

    another unsubstantiated creative writing from DED.

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