Apple Inc. A8X iPad chip causing big problems for Intel, Qualcomm, Samsung and Nvidia

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  • Reply 121 of 251
    melgross wrote: »
    Apple HAS caused disruptions. But once a technology settles in, price begins to become the most important factor in a purchasing decision for most people. So Apple's market share drops from 100% to the mid 20's.

    The problem, as I've said several times here, and at other times, is that for most people, their products become less relevant. Why spend $500, when something else does what they want for $250? If Apple wants to keep those price points, then performance isn't enough, and neither is TouchID. I have to admit that I don't know what Apple would need to do that's disruptive, other than to keep well ahead in a number of areas. But we've seen numerous patents from them that could do it.

    Historically... Apple has had no problem selling Mac laptops with a starting price of $1,000 when you could get a Windows laptop for $500 or less. And of course Windows PC outsold Mac laptops.

    And we're seeing that with iPads too. The $250 Android tablets are selling more than Apple's $500 tablets... thus making Apple's tablet share shrink.

    But market share was never Apple's goal.

    The Mac has NEVER had a significant amount of market share in 30 years. But it's always been enough to keep the Mac around.

    iPod sales have all but disappeared... maybe the iPad will follow. I doubt it though... since the iPad is a wonderful machine with an ECOSYSTEM to match.

    Sure... you can buy a $250 or even a $100 Android tablet... but you won't be getting exactly the same things that the iPad and its accompanying ecosystem will offer.

    More buyers will go for the cheaper tablets... and only a select few will go for Apple's solution. But I hope it's enough for Apple to keep the iPad around.

    Apple kept selling Macs even though Windows PCs have crushed them in sales for decades. We'll probably see the same thing happen to iPads.

    iPad sales have fallen for sure... but I hope it's just a trend and not an iPod-like moment. I think the iPad still has a lot of life.

    melgross wrote: »
    Incorporating solar cells in the screen. Incorporating a camera in the screen. Those are two patented areas from Apple from several years ago. Are they working on them or not? Are they practical?

    How about this—Apple uses an LED backlight that uses several LEDs on the edge of the screen. OLEDs can illuminate individual pixels for notifications that use very little power. LCDs have traditionally illuminated the entire panel at once. With large backlighting from panels behind the screen, nothing could be done about that. But with LED backlighting, it can. Apple could illuminate just one LED to have notifications, live, when the phone is off, just the way some Android phones do. It would illuminate a part of the screen, enough for messages, time, temperature, etc., while using much less power than turning all the LEDs on at once. There are several of them. How about Apple doing that?

    There are a number of ideas I have that Apple could be doing. Cameras, touch controls, and other areas, are ones in which Apple could be doing more work on. For example, Apple could lay out a camera that uses a mirror, preferably an aspheric mirror, that would allow the sensor to sit 90 degrees from the lens, eliminating camera thickness as a problem. This would allow a bigger sensor, and even an optical zoom, for which there are several promising technologies. This isn't a technology that hasn't been used in bigger cameras, as it has been. How would people react to a 16MP camera with a 3:1 optical zoom, with low noise? Would the module cost more? Sure. Would the extra sale make it worthwhile? Sure.

    Thank you! That's what I wanted to hear.

    But if Apple doesn't do any of that cool stuff... can anyone else do it? That's what I keep asking. :)

    We've seen Amazon put the "3D" thing in their Fire phones... and Samsung puts things like that weird "Eye Scroll" thing in all of their recent phones. None of that stuff is particularly exciting... and none of it is disruptive either.

    Meanwhile... Apple spends their time developing incredible processors... and working on things like ApplePay and TouchID. That's good stuff. And it's all from Apple.

    So again... who else is working on that kind of stuff?
  • Reply 122 of 251
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,510member
    I think the A8X (and tablet acceptance) will come into it's own in at least these ways:
    • increased sales of iPad Air 2 to consumers
    • increased sales of a new AppleTV/Home Hub/Server/Game Controller
    • new use of iPads as personal TVs and gaming devices
    • enterprise/institutional use of iPads including the new iPad Pro 12"
    • professional use of iPads including the new iPad Pro 12"

    Some [much?] of the acceptance will be a result of the Apple/IBM partnership ... and as people, increasingly, use iPads in their work -- the will tend to purchase similar devices for their personal use!

    The thing is that the consumer doesn't know anything about what's inside. They don't much care either. It's up to Apple to do all the things you have stated, none of which I disagree with.

    Let's look at the game machine thing. How long after we begged for third party, or Apple made controllers have we gotten them? Years! Wasted years. Why is Apple controlling the market for them now as much as it is said to be doing, resulting in such high prices? I don't know, but it's killing a vast potential market. When you can get an excellent Microsoft or Sony controller for much less than these offerings, something is wrong. We need truly excellent controllers for $49, just as they can be bought for the XBox and the PS4. $79 to $99 is just too much.

    When is the new ATv coming out? If this box, as rumored, will be for apps and gaming, come out with it already. Why miss the holiday season, when many game machines are bought? I know the reason being given is that Apple still hasn't gotten what is wants from Tv programmers, cable networks, etc. but if this is truly a dual function box, then sure,y, the gaming and app function is still valid, and the Tv changes Apple is trying to accomplish is icing on the cake, as it will still function perfectly well as is, until Apple is ready for the rest.

    We can use out iPads as personal Tvs now. Many networks, as well as all of the major ones have apps for that lurpose. Yes, you must also have cable for most, but that's not something Apple can do anything about until it's negotions are successful. As gaming devices, see the above concerning controllers.

    Apple has a very share of institutional use there, and with the IBM agreement, hopefully that will expand. In addition there was several articles as to how Apple has formed a new, or revised enterprise sales and support division, and is hiring a lot of people there. I hope to see the 12" model next year. If, as we've been to,d, App,e shelved it for this year because they don't have enough resources, well, they should hire more. It's not as though they can't affort not to. When working with business, resources must never be a problem.

    I can't divorce professional usage from institutional use, it's oart and parcel , as they say. That is, it's the same type of user, for the most part.

    I would like to see a major change in Apple's thinking here. I would like to see a screen that also pressure sensitive. I can do some Photoshop work, but it really requires pressure sensitivity. Samsung uses Wacom's technology. Those patents ran out years ago. Apple should incorporate something similar. Then we wouldn't need these annoying rubber stylus's.
  • Reply 123 of 251
    relicrelic Posts: 4,735member
    I already corrected that above.

    And no, she does not know more than me considering she refuses to get into any in-depth processor architecture discussions and continues to diminish the significance of Apple's processors.


    Please. It's only faster because it's clocked a full 1.0GHz higher. 66% faster clock than the A8X and only 5% faster. This despite Nvidias constant hyping of the Denver K1 and the fact it's supposed to be more efficient and do more work per clock cycle than other ARM processors (Nvidias words, not mine).

    Ugh, stop saying that I am down-playing the significance of the A8 processor because I'm not. Just because I'm defending other manufactures against your continues negativity for anything that isn't made by Apple, does not mean that I think any less of Apples achievements. As I actually use the things I defend and know what their capable of doing, I think I would have a unique perspective. You can spout all of the tech literature you would like but it still won't change the way I think as reading and doing are two completely different things. Have you actually done anything with your supposed knowledge or are you just a collector of it. Have you actually used a product that contains a K1, I don't believe you have, do you even know what it is that that you hate so much. Oh I read somewhere because this or that doesn't ........ words, if you want to get intellectual about it.
  • Reply 124 of 251
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,510member
    techlover wrote: »
    Many good points.

    I may add that for people who "good enough" is sufficient, a 3 year old ipad is arguably pretty close to a new $250 tablet for doing basic tasks.

    The tablet market matured and saturated pretty quickly once the ipad came out.

    And yes please on rapid charging and battery life.

    Aha! Yes! That's something that I wanted to bring into the conversation. At the last financial call, Tim was asked this very question. Are people treating their iPad purchases the way they buy new PC's, rather than to the way they buy new phones?

    His answer was that it was too early to tell, but that it could be possible. So if instead of getting a new model every two years, people are going to hold them for three, or even four, that's going to put a big damper on new sales. Once the market becomes closer to saturation, sales would then slow because of this, being that many, if not most new sales would be for replacement devices. It's been suggested that Apple is a victim of their success. That their tablets are so good, that people don't feel the need to get new ones.

    So if you combine that with $250 tablets being "good enough", we can get a picture of why Apple's tablet sales have been falling.
  • Reply 125 of 251
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,510member
    foggyhill wrote: »
    The quick recharge always has an impact on battery life (how long the battery will last). This isn't an issue if you can actually replace the battery life some Android phones. You can charge a Iphone 6 with an Ipad charger and it will take half the time. But, your going to impact your battery significantly. Since Apple would need to make it possible to change the battery themselves to enable this right now and that have a major impact on their devices' size. I don't think we'll see it. In laptops it could be used though.

    That's not always true. There are batteries that are designed for quick recharge, it all has to do with the internal resistance of the battery. The lower it is, the faster the recharge. It's the internal heat generated by a very fast recharge that damages the battery. Less internal resistance, the less the heat.

    I've been using batteries for my power tools for many years. The normal charge time is about one hour for a full charge. But there are 15 minute chargers. I use them. First for my nicad models, and now for my Lithium batteries. Different chargers, of course. The manufacturers of the power tools, who make the batteries, and chargers, claim longer life for the 15 minute charges. They say the batteries last longer, and I have no reason to dispute that.

    There is no evidence that Apple's batteries will be damaged by the bigger charge. Apple apparently doesn't think so either, as it hasn't told us not to use them, and I alwsys do.
  • Reply 126 of 251
    We've seen Amazon put the "3D" thing in their Fire phones...

    Off topic: I'm sooo glad that Amazon has finally stopped — at least with my packaging from last week —  using that damn Fire Phone tape on all their shipping boxes. I know it's trivial but I found it very annoying to see that over the last 5(?) months on every package I received.
  • Reply 127 of 251
    relicrelic Posts: 4,735member
    melgross wrote: »

    I would like to see a major change in Apple's thinking here. I would like to see a screen that also pressure sensitive. I can do some Photoshop work, but it really requires pressure sensitivity. Samsung uses Wacom's technology. Those patents ran out years ago. Apple should incorporate something similar. Then we wouldn't need these annoying rubber stylus's.

    To add to that I would like to see Miracast, your mention of using the iPad as a TV would benefit from this. Of course there are my usual requests, being able to run multiple apps in the background, multi-user support to split your work and home profiles, able to use a different browser, email client, etc. as your default instead of an Apple app and a built in file manager that can mount all of my cloud and network storge and than be able access these drives via every app that is installed on the system and not just ones that are programed to handle such things, better app communication.
  • Reply 128 of 251
    melgross wrote: »
    I think the A8X (and tablet acceptance) will come into it's own in at least these ways:
    • increased sales of iPad Air 2 to consumers
    • increased sales of a new AppleTV/Home Hub/Server/Game Controller
    • new use of iPads as personal TVs and gaming devices
    • enterprise/institutional use of iPads including the new iPad Pro 12"
    • professional use of iPads including the new iPad Pro 12"

    Some [much?] of the acceptance will be a result of the Apple/IBM partnership ... and as people, increasingly, use iPads in their work -- the will tend to purchase similar devices for their personal use!

    The thing is that the consumer doesn't know anything about what's inside. They don't much care either. It's up to Apple to do all the things you have stated, none of which I disagree with.

    Let's look at the game machine thing. How long after we begged for third party, or Apple made controllers have we gotten them? Years! Wasted years. Why is Apple controlling the market for them now as much as it is said to be doing, resulting in such high prices? I don't know, but it's killing a vast potential market. When you can get an excellent Microsoft or Sony controller for much less than these offerings, something is wrong. We need truly excellent controllers for $49, just as they can be bought for the XBox and the PS4. $79 to $99 is just too much.

    When is the new ATv coming out? If this box, as rumored, will be for apps and gaming, come out with it already. Why miss the holiday season, when many game machines are bought? I know the reason being given is that Apple still hasn't gotten what is wants from Tv programmers, cable networks, etc. but if this is truly a dual function box, then sure,y, the gaming and app function is still valid, and the Tv changes Apple is trying to accomplish is icing on the cake, as it will still function perfectly well as is, until Apple is ready for the rest.

    We can use out iPads as personal Tvs now. Many networks, as well as all of the major ones have apps for that lurpose. Yes, you must also have cable for most, but that's not something Apple can do anything about until it's negotions are successful. As gaming devices, see the above concerning controllers.

    Apple has a very share of institutional use there, and with the IBM agreement, hopefully that will expand. In addition there was several articles as to how Apple has formed a new, or revised enterprise sales and support division, and is hiring a lot of people there. I hope to see the 12" model next year. If, as we've been to,d, App,e shelved it for this year because they don't have enough resources, well, they should hire more. It's not as though they can't affort not to. When working with business, resources must never be a problem.

    I can't divorce professional usage from institutional use, it's oart and parcel , as they say. That is, it's the same type of user, for the most part.

    I would like to see a major change in Apple's thinking here. I would like to see a screen that also pressure sensitive. I can do some Photoshop work, but it really requires pressure sensitivity. Samsung uses Wacom's technology. Those patents ran out years ago. Apple should incorporate something similar. Then we wouldn't need these annoying rubber stylus's.


    I agree with most of that!

    I misspoke -- i meant creative professionals -- artists, photographers, video/sound editors, designers ... these are more individuals than institunal employees.

    For example:

    http://www.icompositions.com/music/song.php?sid=87177

    and

    http://www.icompositions.com/music/song.php?sid=105625

    Take a few moments and listen to these ... they were done on a Mac Laptop using Garage Band ...

    The first was Mystified singing over herself -- much the way Natalie Cole sang over father's recording ... She said she lost count and can't even tell how many voice overs there are -- I can count 4, maybe 5 concurrent voices.

    The second is GB generating the sound of a grand piano accompaniment ...

    This should doable on an iPad!
  • Reply 129 of 251
    relicrelic Posts: 4,735member
    I agree with most of that!

    I misspoke -- i meant creative professionals -- artists, photographers, video/sound editors, designers ... these are more individuals than institunal employees.

    For example:

    http://www.icompositions.com/music/song.php?sid=87177

    and

    http://www.icompositions.com/music/song.php?sid=105625

    Take a few moments and listen to these ... they were done on a Mac Laptop using Garage Band ...

    The first was Mystified singing over herself -- much the way Natalie Cole sang over father's recording ... She said she lost count and can't even tell how many voice overs there are -- I can count 4, maybe 5 concurrent voices.

    The second is GB generating the sound of a grand piano accompaniment ...

    This should doable on an iPad!

    The iPad is an awesome music creation platform, the amount of midi controllers and keyboards are just staggering.
  • Reply 130 of 251
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,510member

    I don't think DED has any 'goals' or agenda. When it comes to Apple, he just sees things how they are, which is what makes his writing so attractive. He strips everything down to the historical facts and presents them in an entertaining way.

    Admittedly, he can't hep his liberal roots seeping through on non-tech related matters, bless him.

    No, he doesn't see things as they are. He sees things the way he wants them to be. And those people here who also want to see things as they want them to be read him uncritically. They don't look to the incorrect facts and omissions, or the fault in his logic.

    Don't get me wrong, he's fun to read, and for a short time, I can imagine that in his world, everything would be good. But then, I have to leave that utopia, and come back to earth.
  • Reply 131 of 251
    melgross wrote: »

    I don't think DED has any 'goals' or agenda. When it comes to Apple, he just sees things how they are, which is what makes his writing so attractive. He strips everything down to the historical facts and presents them in an entertaining way.

    Admittedly, he can't hep his liberal roots seeping through on non-tech related matters, bless him.

    No, he doesn't see things as they are. He sees things the way he wants them to be. And those people here who also want to see things as they want them to be read him uncritically. They don't look to the incorrect facts and omissions, or the fault in his logic.

    Don't get me wrong, he's fun to read, and for a short time, I can imagine that in his world, everything would be good. But then, I have to leave that utopia, and come back to earth.

    Fair do's. We'll have to agree to disagree.
  • Reply 132 of 251
    well, besides all this humiliatingly nauseous backpatting, it would be nice if apple was more realistic, like listening to what your customers have to say. how about adding microSD support or a user replaceable battery? then again, they dont seem to care. also, i think the writer didnt notice that his self proclaiming graph shows nvidia's SOC in the lead even though his rants keep going on and on and on until i got bored reading about how apple is the greatest in the world and everyone else isn't. lol but, alas, its very amusing that all this nonsense has been written without a shred of evidence in real world performance. thanks for wasting 5 minute of my life that i will never get back.
  • Reply 133 of 251
    rogifanrogifan Posts: 10,669member

    Nope. iPhone 6 and 6+ are designed to use the full 12W, all other iPhones only pull 5W. They'll be fine.
    Good to know. Although I probably shouldn't care as I get a new phone every year now. :lol:
  • Reply 134 of 251
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,510member
    rogifan wrote: »
    I use a 12w charger to charge both my iPhone and iPad. Am I negatively impacting my iPhone's battery life by doing so?

    No. Apple's chargers contain circuitry that limit the current to safe values for any Apple device. They will work on non Apple devices, but I'm not sure whether the circuitry would be as effective in protecting the device.

    Oops! Removed inadvertent question mark after " No". That was a statement, not a question.
  • Reply 135 of 251
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,510member

    The technology to supercharge batteries is many years old. The problem is that you knacker the battery, so in the long-term, you will have to replace the battery too quickly. No doubt, Apple have experimented with this technology, and if it becomes commercially viable, they will implement it.

    No. You and our other friend are not understanding how this works, or why it does work. If manufacturer "A" has a fast charger, and you use it with manufacturer "B's" batteries, you may damage the batteries. But if you use it with manufacturer "A's" batteries, unless they specifically state that using this charger may lessen battery life, then you're ok. Sometimes, manufacturers will state that this particular line of batteries are for quick charging.

    Apple has allowed the big chargers charge their phones all along. It's simply not a problem. You will get a shorter time, but not by too much. The new phones are designed to be relatively quick charged, but not nearly as fast as the new Motorola phone, which obviously has a battery designed for that purpose.

    Quick charging, as you say, is an old technology. With computerized chargers, as almost all good chargers are these days, and the proper battery, quick charging is effective, and results in no loss of battery life.

    With the proper charging station, you can quick charge a Tesla car battery in less than 15 minutes, and Tesla states that it won't damage the battery.
  • Reply 136 of 251
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,510member
    I already corrected that above.

    And no, she does not know more than me considering she refuses to get into any in-depth processor architecture discussions and continues to diminish the significance of Apple's processors.


    Please. It's only faster because it's clocked a full 1.0GHz higher. 66% faster clock than the A8X and only 5% faster. This despite Nvidias constant hyping of the Denver K1 and the fact it's supposed to be more efficient and do more work per clock cycle than other ARM processors (Nvidias words, not mine).

    I haven't gotten the feeling from you that you do know this. I have talked to her, and her posts have shown that she does know what she' stalking g about. Perhaps you can enlighten us further.

    As far as your knowledge goes, I don't see it from your statements here. Surely you know that clock speed has little to do with anything unless it specifically refers to the same processor family? So comparing clocks and performance is not proper. And while I'm not a fan of Nvidia, their latest SoC is pretty good. Knocking it isn't helping your case.
  • Reply 137 of 251
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,510member
    A while back, I suggested using a lens/mirror concept for light -- similar to what a folded horn does for sound ... for a super-flat camera in an iPhone.

    I did some surfing and there had been research in that area -- but most of it was over 10 years ago.

    Yeah, I've been talking about this for a while too. I keep my fingers crossed every year.
  • Reply 138 of 251
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,510member
    The last iPad I bought was the iPad 4 -- didn't have the need for an iPad Air last year, and planned to wait for the iPad Pro early next year.

    We all (5 in family) have iPad 2s or later (and some iPad 1s as backup). Last week my youngest grandson's iPad 2 acted up -- and I can't turn of FindMyPhone to reset it ...

    The older grandson wants a Mac laptop in addition to his iMac and iPad 2 ...

    Then I saw an add for a new Logitech iDevice KB ... I bought 3 of them, Ordered an iPad Air 2 for myself, the grandsons will get iPad 4 and iPad 3 replacements -- and I'll donate the older iPads to charity for things like Proloquotogo.

    The older ones move around. My original model is now relegated to the historical department. The 2 is used in my shops for calculations. The 3 has been given to an artist friend of Janet, my daughter. We never did get the 4 because of another priority that year, a new multifunction printer from Hp, the MFP 575, which cost $2,400, so I took the money for the iPad for that. The Air, my wife has, as she doesn't want me to spend the money for a new one for her, as she just uses it for browsing and games.My daughter still has a 3,, but is now thinking of getting the Air 2.

    I'd like to get the Pro, or whatever it will be called, but it's speculative right now. We don't really know what is going to happen, so I didn't want to wait.
  • Reply 139 of 251
    melgross wrote: »
    Aha! Yes! That's something that I wanted to bring into the conversation. At the last financial call, Tim was asked this very question. Are people treating their iPad purchases the way they buy new PC's, rather than to the way they buy new phones?

    His answer was that it was too early to tell, but that it could be possible. So if instead of getting a new model every two years, people are going to hold them for three, or even four, that's going to put a big damper on new sales. Once the market becomes closer to saturation, sales would then slow because of this, being that many, if not most new sales would be for replacement devices. It's been suggested that Apple is a victim of their success. That their tablets are so good, that people don't feel the need to get new ones..

    So if you combine that with $250 tablets being "good enough", we can get a picture of why Apple's tablet sales have been falling

    Yes… iPad sales have declined year-over-year… but Apple still managed to sell over 12 million iPads last quarter.

    A person might only buy an iPad once every 3 or 4 years… but people are buying iPads every day.

    There were roughly 136,000 iPads sold every day last quarter.

    So who are those people? Are any of them first-time iPad buyers? If so… that’s good. It means people are still interested in the iPad.

    I agree with Tim... it's too early to tell. It's only been 2 quarters of declining sales compared to 12 quarters of growing sales. I wonder how far it will go.
  • Reply 140 of 251
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,510member
    foggyhill wrote: »
    Battery is "damaged" when you charge it. It is just a question of terminology. If they didn't worry at all they would have shipped with the larger charger... 

    Like I said, there's nothing wrong with using the larger charger, your battery will just last less time.  How much less depends on how often you charge it. If your a heavy user that needs 1 charge per day, then the effect will be more pronounced.

    Another reason that the Ipad can be charged with the larger charger is that you tend to use your Ipad less and the batter will last longer, so even a quick charge would be less damaging since it is done less often. So, for both those reasons it is less of an issue for an Ipad. How many people have had to replace their Ipad battery?

    Your phone's battery could last even longer if you connect it to under powered USB ports, but that doesn't mean I encourage you to do so except in absolute necessity.

    So, basically, do whatever you want...

    You are making assumptions that are simply incorrect.
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