All your Firewire 2 HDTV editing base...

matsu · March 29, 2002 2:18PM

...are belong to high-end specialized equipment at the moment.

Apple just released the HD display, which is suitable for 1080p24 HD work, but aside from some very fast SCSI arrays there isn't anything out there that can supply data fast enough to upload and download an uncompressed HD DV tape onto a computer in real time.

Reading through a recent digital video mag article about George Lucas and others moving to exclusive DV capture (not miniDV, but a HD DV format, 1920x1080@24p) I found some very interesting tidbits.

One, the uncompressed DV stream for these pro-cameras is 150MBps. That's a whole lot of data. Only firewire @ 1600Mbps (or 200MBps) would begin to offer a pluggable interface between camera and computer that could work in Real Time. Given the need for more bandwidth on the pro-end and Apple's recent moves to court a larger share of the video market, how long before we see a faster firewire from Apple?

Will we see one at all? Or will this relatively limited market use custom proprietary interfaces? Seems to me like sooner rather than later would be a good time for Apple to get some studios locked into the mac platform.

Discuss, or rant, rave, and flame... It's all good.

[ 03-29-2002: Message edited by: Matsu ]</p>

ferro · March 29, 2002 5:05PM

all your base...

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© FERRO 2001-2002

[ 03-29-2002: Message edited by: FERRO ]</p>

ghost_user_name · March 29, 2002 6:08PM

You know, it really wasn't until recently that non-linear uncompressed NTSC video editing was happening a lot. I know a lot of boutique shops that have Avid Symphony's now, but it's really only become widespread recently. That's a long time for working with compressed video. Broadcast quality, but compressed still.

I don't think we need to worry about uncompressed HDTV. The technology will catch up, but until then, there are systems that can compress down an HDTV stream to around (and this is from something I heard a couple of years ago and wasn't paying full attention to, so forgive me if it is terribly inaccurate) 30MB/sec, and it is broadcast quality.

In reality though, the video cameras themselves really aren't even recording uncompressed images. Betacam SP, Digi Beta, Betacam SX, and HDCam all compress their images when dropping it to the tape. The HD DV Cam stuff you mentioned... if you spend enough money on an array, 150MB/sec is completely doable, just not for most people

So I wouldn't worry about uncompressed HDTV streams. You won't be seeing it commonplace soon. Broadcast quality compression is good enough.

matsu · March 29, 2002 7:24PM

No disagreement from me here. Like the HD cinema display, this would be strictly high-end stuff. From what I've read, HDTV broadcasters may prefer to work with compressed data feeds anyway. However, Lucas and company record everything uncompressed in order to squeeze every last bit of fidelity (for the big screen). Maybe powermac only? And yet, with that kinda speed on hand, it could be used to do away with PCI altogether on Apple's other products -- possibly making it's adoption more cost effective, and addressing just about any expansion complaint potential iMac/iBook/PowerBook users might have.

Even if it remains strictly for PowerMacs, from what I understand there are some pretty neat profits to be had in providing this level of equipment.

Most of us won't be working with anything better than an anamorphic miniDV stream for a while yet (about 800x500ish quality) and really not that bad for even broadcast TV. Hell, NTSC isn't even that good and we've been looking at it for years. MiniDV is more than I need right now for my little home movies!

I sure hope Apple sorts out MPEG4 for us! That, and even better MPEG2 algorhythims for all those home made DVD's, should keep consumers happy for the next decade.

altivec_2.0 · March 29, 2002 7:56PM

Apple will surprise all of us one day.

kormac77 · March 29, 2002 9:15PM

Hello Matsu: You are here too !

I am glad to see you here. P.S.: I am not jocking. I really like you.

Master: I think you know something that other are even think about.

Yes! The day are coming and THE ONE day will come much more early.

Here is my idea.

First Let's check the HD format.

<a href="http://videoexpert.home.att.net/artic3/262ctab.htm"; target="_blank">http://videoexpert.home.att.net/artic3/262ctab.htm</a>;

In this chart, you will find that there is 3 format as Codec.

MPEG-2, DV ( DCT ), and uncompressed.

MPEG-2 is only a recording and Transmission format, not editing.

So DV ( in D7-HD, which is DVCPRO HD ) and Un-compress are the eding solution.

Then you will ask that what about HDCAM & D5-HD which is compressed! The answer is that it is not codec based. It does compress when it record Data to tape.

SONY is thinking about using MPEG-2 for HD editing but still could not come up with product yet. But thigs are changing. More in little later.

Panasonic is using DV in their HD system. It is DVCPRO HD, which was once called DVCPRO 100. The DV which we are using are same as their DVCPRO 25.

So what is the difference with DVCPRO 25 & DVCPRO 100 in data format?

DV,DVCAM, and DVCPRO25 in NTSC are

5:1 compression with DCT and it fit with 25Mps which it can use current Firewire with 100Mps.

-This is what we are using for iMovie and FinalCutPro.

Then if you look at the spec of DVCPRO HD, it is

6.7:1 Compression with DCT.

Current uncompresed HD NLE required to have 150MB/s transfer rate for 1080/60i editing.

Apply this factor, you will get less than 30MB/s transfer rate requirment!. It is fit with normal SCSI-2 or SCSI-3 HD speed and possibly fast IDE HD too !

But most interesting thing is that it can fit with

800Mb/s Firewire system !

So where is 800Mb/s firewire syste ? It is not available yet, but we know what it is.

It is GIGAWIRE from APPLE in near future!

Now you can guess what can be possible !

Than it is for the Professonal which the HD Recording VTR start fro more than USD 60,000.

What good will be for pro-sumer ?

There is two hint for what to expect.

I will post more later.

kormac77 · March 29, 2002 11:05PM

First, Panasonic way.

Panasoic will introduce New CAMCODER.

<a href="http://www.panasonic.com/PBDS/subcat/newsinfo/press_01/01_98.html"; target="_blank">http://www.panasonic.com/PBDS/subcat/newsinfo/press_01/01_98.html</a>;

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New 24P Mini-DV Camcorder to Democratize Digital Filmmaking, Videography

Representing a revolutionary leap in digital video technology, the palm-size AG-DVX100 DV Cinema? camcorder is equipped with three, newly-developed 1/3" progressive scan CCDs that allow the camcorder to capture high-sensitivity images in both standard 60-field-per-second NTSC (interlace scan) and also at 24-frames-per-second progressive scan (24P), the frame rate at which many primetime HD episodics, commercials and independent movies originate.

"The AG-DVX100 DV Cinema camcorder democratizes visual storytelling by substantially reducing the cost-of-entry for digital filmmakers," English commented. "The AG-DVX100 is a forward-looking tool that will allow the creative community, whether video journalists, digital cinematographers or event videographers, to express their visions at the highest creative level."

Pricing and availability of the AG-DVX100 will be announced at NAB2002.

-------------------------------------------------

As you can read in, it does support current NTSC format DV ( 480/60i ) and New format (480/24P ).

Currently, NO one support this format other than Panasonic. And when Panasoic supported product was Professional product.

For the VTR AJ-PD950A

<a href="http://www.panasonic.com/pbds/subcat/Products/vtrs_vcrs/f_aj-pd950a.html"; target="_blank">http://www.panasonic.com/pbds/subcat/Products/vtrs_vcrs/f_aj-pd950a.html</a>;

For the Camcoder AJ-PD900WA

<a href="http://www.panasonic.com/pbds/subcat/Products/cams_ccorders/f_aj-pd900wa.html"; target="_blank">http://www.panasonic.com/pbds/subcat/Products/cams_ccorders/f_aj-pd900wa.html</a>;

The price of this CAMCODER is around US$ 39,950 with out Lense.

And in there , this is interesting part.

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Progressive Scan - 480p delivers a rich, progressively scanned picture and refreshes 60 times per second (rather than 30 times per second as in conventional interlaced pictures). It's the perfect acquisition format for fast moving sports or action sequences, as motion blur is significantly reduced and vertical resolution is significantly increased. 480p converts nicely to 480i for standard definition monitoring and playout, but more importantly its native progressive format lends itself to a very clean upconversion to 720/60p or 1080/30i.

-------------------------------------------------

and

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DVCPRO/DVCPRO50/DVCPRO P Switchable Recording - The AJ-PD900WA Camcorder presents a compelling set of features, in particular it offers a choice of three recording formats in a single camcorder: 25 Mbps, 50 Mbps, or 50 Mbps in progressive scan mode. Each format brings with it distinct advantages that make sense for particular productions and their final destinations. With triple format capability the AJ-PD900WA is equally at home in the news acquisition world, the high-end field and studio production arena, and in creating high resolution progressively scanned images decidedly fitting for DTV broadcasting, digital cinema, web streaming, and cost-effective HDTV programming (once upconverted).

-------------------------------------------------

Many expect the price for AG-DVX100 DV Cinema? camcorder will be less than US$ 10,000

I think it will be less than US$ 6,000 ~ 7,000.

The 480P format is 2 time better resolution than NTSC and some call it "EDTV" or " Semi-HDTV". How good id it ? here is some story.

MUDDFILMS SHOOTS FEATURE FILM, "LUCKY," WITH PANASONIC 480P DVCPRO50 CAMCORDER

<a href="http://www.panasonic.com/pbds/subcat/newsinfo/press_01/01_88.html"; target="_blank">http://www.panasonic.com/pbds/subcat/newsinfo/press_01/01_88.html</a>;

CRYSTAL LAKE ENTERTAINMENT SELECTS PANASONIC 480P FOR LATEST CUNNINGHAM FEATURE FILM

<a href="http://www.panasonic.com/pbds/subcat/newsinfo/press_01/01_27.html"; target="_blank">http://www.panasonic.com/pbds/subcat/newsinfo/press_01/01_27.html</a>;

News & Info

CAPORALE STUDIOS SHOOTING FEATURE FILMS WITH PANASONIC 480P DVCPRO50 CAMCORDER

<a href="http://www.panasonic.com/pbds/subcat/newsinfo/press_01/01_04.html"; target="_blank">http://www.panasonic.com/pbds/subcat/newsinfo/press_01/01_04.html</a>;

But there is NO Editing solution available, not even from Panasonic itself. And if you can make logical guess, You will not use $100,000 NLE system for $6000 Camcoder

Let's think. Firewire can use 480/60i data transfer mode. 480/60P will be difficult because it require to have double capacity. However, if you use 24 frame, it might fit in orginal Firewire capacity.

Or they can use Firewire2 ! <img src="graemlins/surprised.gif" border="0" alt="[Surprised]" />

And who will make first use of Firewire2 ? <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />

APPLE.

So let's see what will happen in this NAB !

Then what about SONY ?

It is better story. But I will save it for later.

I will post SONY story in near future.

P.S.: Did you know that Quicktime 5.04 contain DVCpro codec ? :eek:

If it is, What will happen to Quicktime 6 ?

<img src="confused.gif" border="0">

matsu · March 30, 2002 6:16AM

hahaha

Can one be turned from the dark side?

Anyway, if we're talking about a compressed HD DV 1080 24p stream, then even the current firewire is good (barely). Firewire currently supplies 50MBps (400Mbps) which would leave enough room for a 25-30MBps stream. I think a lot of 'made for TV' stuff will favor this set-up (especially) for the first few years: lower overhead and all. However, film makers will prefer 24P 1080 (and even greater) for feature film use. While there really isn't anything greater available pixel-wise, they can up the frame rate for slow-mo stuff, and people are working on a digital 3-d HD recording format that will use 60fps (30fps right, 30fps left, two cameras, interleaved) Not even close to IMAX quality, but using two digital cameras instead of 2 IMAX beasts ought to be way cheaper!

But this is all besides the point of Gigawire or Firewire 2. Firewire was originally conceived to have the following steps:

400Mbps or 50MB/s

800Mbps or 100MB/s

1600Mbps or 200MB/s

3200Mbps or 400MB/s

The highest speed is available over fiber, and the second highest over both fiber and copper (long and short distances). To cover the needs of both compressed and uncompressed video users, Apple would need to use 1600Mbps (200MB/s, it even leaves a little overhead as they really only need 150MB/s). It is the practical limit, as you can still do everything over copper, it supplies enough speed for professional use, and is part of an already accepted (if not implemented) standard. More would be overkill, which we're unlikely to get, and less really wouldn't let us do anything we can't do already: both firewire and IDE RAID are up to the task for supplying 25-50MB/s.

PS, Kormac, you used M in a bunch of places in your post, and I wasn't sure if you were talking MB or Mb when I started this response, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. You might want to clear it up for the other readers, especially since they're likely to turn any speculation on your part into confirmed rumor.

All your Firewire 2 HDTV editing base...

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