Carl Ichan may be close to top 10 holders of Apple (I think he has $5 billion worth of AAPL) . Still his ownership of % outstanding is so relatively small that Tim Cook does not have to listen to him. If Vanguard and State Street both throw support behind Ichan, that may mean something. But I do think both Vanguard and State Street holdings of Apple are part of their index fund portfolio. In other words, I don't think they will be any part of shareholder activist movement.
Something is only worth what someone else will pay for it. If Apple shares really worth almost double their price then obviously Icahn would spend every penny he has minus a bit for living expenses, on Apple shares. Oh no, he just wants other people to share the wealth, or maybe he's just trying to spruik his own holdings, you decide.
How about Apple helping to build public wi-fi? Lobbying for fiber optics to the house? Gigabit internet? Something that benefits users, and the public in general. Carl Icahn is old and he has more money than any human needs. The hell with him.
How about Apple helping to build public wi-fi? Lobbying for fiber optics to the house? Gigabit internet? Something that benefits users, and the public in general.
Why? I’d rather they stick to putting their money where they know it will actually do something.
Carl Icahn is old and he has more money than any human needs.
People keep making this silly assertion. It is NOT 35%. It is the DIFFERENCE between what has been paid abroad and Apple's marginal US tax rate. What has been paid abroad is not 0%; what is owed as marginal tax rate in the US is probably not 35%.
Without having access to Apple's books, it's impossible to say exactly what that percentage is. Yes, they get to deduct taxes already paid abroad. But I guess I wasn't trying to deduce the exact percentage paid or get mired in accounting rules. I was simply making the point that borrowing money at less than 1% (or say even a few %) to save from paying taxes on repatriated cash is smart. I'll leave it to the rest of you to debate whether it's 13.5 or 11.75 or 9.09%. Apple was praised for their financial acumen and they should be applauded for being so aggressive.
I came across this little list of Icahn's accomplishments:
Quote:
1985Trans World Airlines: Carl Icahn launched a hostile takeover of TWA in 1985. He then stripped TWA's assets, took the company private in 1988, gaining a personal profit of $469 million and leaving the company $540 million in debt. Icahn sold TWA's London routes to American Airlines in 1991 for $445 million.
1986U.S. Steel: Attempted a hostile takeover for 89% of U.S. Steel in 1986, which would have been worth $7 billion. He was later rebuffed by company CEO David Roderick.
1989Texaco Inc.: Icahn, Texaco's largest shareholder with more than 16.6% ownership, started a proxy fight with the company to sell assets and reward shareholders. The company negotiated a settlement with Icahn, announcing plans in 1989 to spend $2.4 billion on dividends to shareholders and purchase some of its stock.
1997RJR Nabisco: After accumulating a 7.3% stake in RJR Nabisco during the late 1990s, he launched a proxy fight to take control of the board and break up the company. He was unsuccessful but still was able to make $100 million after selling his stock.
2006Time Warner: Icahn, who owned about 3.3% of Time Warner's stock, attempted to pressure CEO Richard Parsons to increase shareholder value. He and a group of other shareholders started a proxy battle to remove Parsons and to break Time Warner into four companies. The company's board members negotiated a deal with Icahn's group to maintain their leadership while also cutting costs and buying back $20 billion of stock.
2008Yahoo Inc.: In a proxy fight that lasted months, Icahn attempted to oust CEO Jerry Yang to allow Microsoft to purchase the company. The company announced a settlement with Icahn in July that called for restructuring of the company's board.
2009Biogen Idec Inc.: Icahn started to increase his stake in Biogen in 2007 while seeking to acquire, break up or sell off parts of the company. In 2009, he got two allies elected to the board. In 2011, Icahn sold all of his stock in the company, valued at $750 million.
2014Oshkosh Corp.: Icahn unsuccessfully proposed replacing Oshkosh's board with a slate of directors that would have separated the company's JLG aerial-lift equipment production into a separate public company. He said that would allow investors to choose between the truck manufacturing business and JLG.
2014Apple Inc.: Claimed Apple was undervalued and urged CEO Tim Cook to make a share buyback. He later urged the company to double the $101.90 share price and threatened to sell back his 53 million shares, which were representing 1% of the company's stock.
2014eBay Inc.: Icahn attempted to separate eBay from PayPal in another proxy fight but reached a settlement with the company in April that expanded the number of directors on the company's board.
What seems to be lacking to me is any indication whatsoever that his actions ever lead to actual betterment of the companies he targets. He seems to get into a position of influence and forces companies to take actions which they obviously don't believe to be in their best interests but which do lead to massive profits for Icahn. I don't believe any good can come to Apple from his actions.
it might not be 35% but its a hell lot more than 1%. Irish tax was about 5% so Apple would need to pay 30% if sent their cash back to the US.
Also don't forget buybacks decreases the amount of dividends that need to be paid. Dividend rate is about 1.5% right now. So that saves money also. Also don't forget the interest expense is tax deductable. Someone did a calculation and the cost of doing the buyback was actually SAVING apple money because of dividends savings and tax savings.
Without having access to Apple's books, it's impossible to say exactly what that percentage is. Yes, they get to deduct taxes already paid abroad. But I guess I wasn't trying to deduce the exact percentage paid or get mired in accounting rules. I was simply making the point that borrowing money at less than 1% (or say even a few %) to save from paying taxes on repatriated cash is smart. I'll leave it to the rest of you to debate whether it's 13.5 or 11.75 or 9.09%. Apple was praised for their financial acumen and they should be applauded for being so aggressive.
1) I am fine with you saying that the post-tax cost of debt is lower than the marginal tax rate of bringing back the cash from abroad. There is no need to constantly exaggerate and make it "35%".
2) At some point it would be good for Apple (and others) to solve this problem once and for all, by negotiating a special, one-time tax deal with the U.S. government to bring the money back. They can then decide what to do with it, including putting it to use for repurchases, without having to resort to unnecessary financial engineering.
(Add: Personally, I believe that any tax revenue raised from such a deal should be put into a special "infrastructure fund" to rebuild our country's pathetic, crumbling roads, grids, bridges, and schools).
Icahn owns less than 1% of Apple's shares. There is no way on earth he can make Tim do anything he does not want to do. If he owed 10%-15%+ of the shares then hostile activity could be possible.
All those companies you mentioned had one thing in common: they were all struggling and there was a leadership void that Icahn took over. I don't see that problem with Apple.
I believe Tim had lunch with him. I doubt Tim really wanted to do that. Tim has been agressively purchasing Apple shares due to to Icahn's meddling. There is no evidence Tim really wanted to do that either.
Can you show instances where Icahn's interference in the running of companies has resulted in significant improvements and benefits for the company?
How about Apple helping to build public wi-fi? Lobbying for fiber optics to the house? Gigabit internet? Something that benefits users, and the public in general. Carl Icahn is old and he has more money than any human needs. The hell with him.
Notice how trolls like Constable Odo, who for months campaigned for Cook's head because of stock price, are now nowhere to be seen when the stock is through the roof? Currently sitting @ $882 pre-split. Fucking amazing how these people so giddily and easily dish out hate, but when it comes to giving credit, especially when that credit proves that their assumptions and predictions were 100% wrong, they're nowhere to be seen.
Through the roof?
We're not much higher than we were in 2012.
You obviously have very modest ideas of what 'through the roof' means.
I read today Tim Cook is headed to Israel for...something or other.
Now...there are certain parts of the US that aren't particularly safe, but Israel is much closer to that brutal ISIS bunch. If I was Evil(tm) and had minions, I'd be thinking about how to get to a guy that is integral to a $700B company that could pay a ransom. Seriously...what kind of security does Tim have? Remember how weird it was when Steve was sick, and "succession plans" were being discussed?
/TJ
I agree. Hearing about Tim's trip there kind of scarred me. What protection will he have? What would happen to AAPL's stock price if he were killed?
Comments
From Yahoo Finance - Major Holders of Apple:
Carl Ichan may be close to top 10 holders of Apple (I think he has $5 billion worth of AAPL) . Still his ownership of % outstanding is so relatively small that Tim Cook does not have to listen to him. If Vanguard and State Street both throw support behind Ichan, that may mean something. But I do think both Vanguard and State Street holdings of Apple are part of their index fund portfolio. In other words, I don't think they will be any part of shareholder activist movement.
Sep 30, 2014
How about Apple helping to build public wi-fi? Lobbying for fiber optics to the house? Gigabit internet? Something that benefits users, and the public in general. Carl Icahn is old and he has more money than any human needs. The hell with him.
Why? I’d rather they stick to putting their money where they know it will actually do something.
Yeah, you don’t get to dictate that.
People keep making this silly assertion. It is NOT 35%. It is the DIFFERENCE between what has been paid abroad and Apple's marginal US tax rate. What has been paid abroad is not 0%; what is owed as marginal tax rate in the US is probably not 35%.
Without having access to Apple's books, it's impossible to say exactly what that percentage is. Yes, they get to deduct taxes already paid abroad. But I guess I wasn't trying to deduce the exact percentage paid or get mired in accounting rules. I was simply making the point that borrowing money at less than 1% (or say even a few %) to save from paying taxes on repatriated cash is smart. I'll leave it to the rest of you to debate whether it's 13.5 or 11.75 or 9.09%. Apple was praised for their financial acumen and they should be applauded for being so aggressive.
I came across this little list of Icahn's accomplishments:
1985Trans World Airlines: Carl Icahn launched a hostile takeover of TWA in 1985. He then stripped TWA's assets, took the company private in 1988, gaining a personal profit of $469 million and leaving the company $540 million in debt. Icahn sold TWA's London routes to American Airlines in 1991 for $445 million.
1986U.S. Steel: Attempted a hostile takeover for 89% of U.S. Steel in 1986, which would have been worth $7 billion. He was later rebuffed by company CEO David Roderick.
1989Texaco Inc.: Icahn, Texaco's largest shareholder with more than 16.6% ownership, started a proxy fight with the company to sell assets and reward shareholders. The company negotiated a settlement with Icahn, announcing plans in 1989 to spend $2.4 billion on dividends to shareholders and purchase some of its stock.
1997RJR Nabisco: After accumulating a 7.3% stake in RJR Nabisco during the late 1990s, he launched a proxy fight to take control of the board and break up the company. He was unsuccessful but still was able to make $100 million after selling his stock.
2006Time Warner: Icahn, who owned about 3.3% of Time Warner's stock, attempted to pressure CEO Richard Parsons to increase shareholder value. He and a group of other shareholders started a proxy battle to remove Parsons and to break Time Warner into four companies. The company's board members negotiated a deal with Icahn's group to maintain their leadership while also cutting costs and buying back $20 billion of stock.
2008Yahoo Inc.: In a proxy fight that lasted months, Icahn attempted to oust CEO Jerry Yang to allow Microsoft to purchase the company. The company announced a settlement with Icahn in July that called for restructuring of the company's board.
2009Biogen Idec Inc.: Icahn started to increase his stake in Biogen in 2007 while seeking to acquire, break up or sell off parts of the company. In 2009, he got two allies elected to the board. In 2011, Icahn sold all of his stock in the company, valued at $750 million.
2014Oshkosh Corp.: Icahn unsuccessfully proposed replacing Oshkosh's board with a slate of directors that would have separated the company's JLG aerial-lift equipment production into a separate public company. He said that would allow investors to choose between the truck manufacturing business and JLG.
2014Apple Inc.: Claimed Apple was undervalued and urged CEO Tim Cook to make a share buyback. He later urged the company to double the $101.90 share price and threatened to sell back his 53 million shares, which were representing 1% of the company's stock.
2014eBay Inc.: Icahn attempted to separate eBay from PayPal in another proxy fight but reached a settlement with the company in April that expanded the number of directors on the company's board.
http://www.jsonline.com/business/manitowoc-co-gives-activist-investor-carl-icahn-board-seats-b99441392z1-291266791.html
What seems to be lacking to me is any indication whatsoever that his actions ever lead to actual betterment of the companies he targets. He seems to get into a position of influence and forces companies to take actions which they obviously don't believe to be in their best interests but which do lead to massive profits for Icahn. I don't believe any good can come to Apple from his actions.
1) I am fine with you saying that the post-tax cost of debt is lower than the marginal tax rate of bringing back the cash from abroad. There is no need to constantly exaggerate and make it "35%".
2) At some point it would be good for Apple (and others) to solve this problem once and for all, by negotiating a special, one-time tax deal with the U.S. government to bring the money back. They can then decide what to do with it, including putting it to use for repurchases, without having to resort to unnecessary financial engineering.
(Add: Personally, I believe that any tax revenue raised from such a deal should be put into a special "infrastructure fund" to rebuild our country's pathetic, crumbling roads, grids, bridges, and schools).
Icahn owns less than 1% of Apple's shares. There is no way on earth he can make Tim do anything he does not want to do. If he owed 10%-15%+ of the shares then hostile activity could be possible.
All those companies you mentioned had one thing in common: they were all struggling and there was a leadership void that Icahn took over. I don't see that problem with Apple.
I believe Tim had lunch with him. I doubt Tim really wanted to do that. Tim has been agressively purchasing Apple shares due to to Icahn's meddling. There is no evidence Tim really wanted to do that either.
Can you show instances where Icahn's interference in the running of companies has resulted in significant improvements and benefits for the company?
Apple is not a charity.
If our military dropped iPhones on other countries instead of bombs, we'd be making a lot more friends and fewer enemies.
It would be a way of introducing the bent iPhone to new people, I’ll give you that.
Notice how trolls like Constable Odo, who for months campaigned for Cook's head because of stock price, are now nowhere to be seen when the stock is through the roof? Currently sitting @ $882 pre-split. Fucking amazing how these people so giddily and easily dish out hate, but when it comes to giving credit, especially when that credit proves that their assumptions and predictions were 100% wrong, they're nowhere to be seen.
Through the roof?
We're not much higher than we were in 2012.
You obviously have very modest ideas of what 'through the roof' means.
Threadjack:
I read today Tim Cook is headed to Israel for...something or other.
Now...there are certain parts of the US that aren't particularly safe, but Israel is much closer to that brutal ISIS bunch. If I was Evil(tm) and had minions, I'd be thinking about how to get to a guy that is integral to a $700B company that could pay a ransom. Seriously...what kind of security does Tim have? Remember how weird it was when Steve was sick, and "succession plans" were being discussed?
/TJ
I agree. Hearing about Tim's trip there kind of scarred me. What protection will he have? What would happen to AAPL's stock price if he were killed?
It would probably go up or down.
How in the world could it go up? Haven't all the haters of Tim Cook been given irrefutable proof of his value to Apple?
The day that Apple announced net profits of $18 billion, the shares dropped $4. Although they have since gone up, they will no doubt drop again.
Markets don't go in one direction only. It would be great if Apple shares only went up, but the world intervenes, unfortunately.
That's true, but I can't see the market going up if Tim Cook is killed. It's just purely negative and I think it would scare the market lower.
Let's hope he's grooming his successor, so that if he is killed, Apple continues to flourish, as Jobs saw fit to do with Cook.