Shuttle drivers at Apple, other Silicon Valley tech companies vote for Teamsters representation

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  • Reply 61 of 170
    zoetmbzoetmb Posts: 2,447member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

    I've been hearing that nonsense all my life. This was going to eliminate that, that was going to eliminate this. We're going to have so much free time on our hands because of automation, and if anything we have less free time.

    We do have more free time because of automation.   But we have less free time because corporate America has demanded a longer work week and most of us are working far more many hours than the average worker put in 30 years ago.    And plenty has been eliminated:  there used to be rooms full of typists as well as clerks and secretaries at virtually every business, even smaller ones.   Those people are all gone.    And we're all accomplishing more.   One of the reasons why businesses have done so well is because even aside from screwing workers, they've become far more efficient.   

     

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

    What is The wow all about. $24 an hour is already damn good wages for a stupid person to earn.

    $24 an hour is $840 a week for a 35-hour week, which is $43,680 a year if you get paid for holidays, sick days and vacation, which they probably don't.    While that's above the poverty line, it's below the average income for a worker in the U.S.    How much does rent or mortgage + maintenance cost within 40 miles of Cupertino or Silicon Valley?    Now throw in their share of health insurance (if provided by the company) or their cost for Obamacare.    Now take off Federal, State and Local taxes.    Now throw in commuting costs to get to their job.   There won't be very much left.    And they're not even going to get the $24 for several years.

     

    And it's quite insulting for you to imply that all blue-collar working folks are stupid.   There's plenty of stupidity on this site from supposedly educated people.   Especially today, with college costs having increased at many times the rate of inflation, it's impossible for many people to attend college.    I'm old enough to remember when the City College of New York had free tuition, but it was really hard to get in. And many State schools across the country were near-free as well.   Even State schools are quite expensive today.   If the father of the bus worker also made $24 per hour (and he probably made less), chances are he could not send his kid to college.  

     

    Should there be a difference between what people who have invested in their education earn and those who didn't?   Absolutely.   But everyone who works hard deserves a wage they can live decently on.    It really pisses me off when people making upwards of $200K a year (with household income in the $300-$400,000 range) think it's perfectly okay to pay minimum wage or slightly more to working-class workers.  I don't think bus drivers have to have every luxury, but they deserve to live in a safe neighborhood, in decent housing and be able to put food on the table, clothes on their family's backs, be able to get healthcare when needed and to take a family vacation every once in a while.   You can't do that in most parts of the U.S., especially in most urban or otherwise desirable areas.    

     

    As for unions, in 2013, only 11.3% of American workers are covered by unions and most of those are public workers.   Have some unions done some bad things?   Sure.   The worst things they've done are probably the pension deals for which many cities are now spending more then they are on salaried workers, but the politicians were just as stupid for signing those deals and then even more stupid for not properly funding the plans.   Unions for private workers wouldn't exist if corporations weren't so damned greedy.   

     

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

    This Republican notion that everyone can get an education, and make it is so wrong. Everyone can't be a doctor, a lawyer, a developer, or own a business. We need people to be policeman, fire fighters, garbage collectors, and bus drivers. Those people provide an essential service, and should earn a living wage.



    SF is a small city that has been hit hard by gentrification. The new residents are willing to pay more in rent, and as are the businesses that cater to them. This causes long time residents, and businesses to get pushed out by their landlord. The higher cost of doing business gets passed on to the consumer. It's people that make the cost of living to sky rocket, so how do you suggest we remedy that?

    That's exactly right.   It used to be that the rich didn't have all that much impact on their surrounding communities and the prices paid for services.    But there's such a ridiculously high ratio between what the rich take in vs. what the average working glass person earns, it affects everything and communities that used to support people of all incomes are being transformed into places that only the rich can live.   In NYC, the average price of an apartment in Manhattan hovers around $1.6 million and prices in Brooklyn and some parts of Queens are fairly close behind.     We used to have a program in NYC to build housing for the middle class called the Mitchell-Lama program.   In return for keeping rents low (and tenants couldn't earn more than 6-7x the rent), the builders got a substantial tax break.   That program created tens of thousands of apartments for the middle-class, but starting about 20 years ago, the builders were permitted to buy their way out of the program and they almost all did.    Those buildings went condo or co-op, the builders made a fortune and now the apartments are quite expensive and non-professional co-op and condo boards are stuck with the maintenance bills in this now-aging housing stock.  

     

    If you're middle class, it's almost impossible to live almost anywhere in NYC if you don't already have a place. 

  • Reply 62 of 170
    Not sure they are understanding the definition of "skill" and "non-skill." There is a wage gap for a reason. There is no opportunity gap. Any of those bus drivers could go to a programming boot-camp and get a job programming in python, java, etc. Everyone deserves good working conditions. I seriously doubt these drivers work in a poor working environment. Tons of people would love those jobs. The downside of unions is they prevent people from competing for those jobs - and eventually they will try to prevent non-union firms from competing for the bus contracts. Guaranteed.
  • Reply 63 of 170
    pokerbear wrote: »
    Not sure they are understanding the definition of "skill" and "non-skill." There is a wage gap for a reason. There is no opportunity gap. Any of those bus drivers could go to a programming boot-camp and get a job programming in python, java, etc. Everyone deserves good working conditions. I seriously doubt these drivers work in a poor working environment. Tons of people would love those jobs. The downside of unions is they prevent people from competing for those jobs - and eventually they will try to prevent non-union firms from competing for the bus contracts. Guaranteed.

    So everyone become a developer. Let's all build apps, and sell them to one another. Screw the people that need to get to work, screw the garbage that needs to be picked up, screw getting served at a restaurant, etc, etc, etc. NO, everyone cannot be a developer.
  • Reply 64 of 170



    Non-sensical response - typical.  Trying to install your version of utopia would work real well, I'm sure of it.  Hahaha.  

  • Reply 65 of 170
    119,000 vs 27,000 is a huge gap. I do think it needs to be closed, but maybe the secret is lowering the high tech wages. Seriously, who needs $10k every month to have a nice life?
  • Reply 66 of 170
    dasanman69dasanman69 Posts: 12,980member
    pokerbear wrote: »

    Non-sensical response - typical.  Trying to install your version of utopia would work real well, I'm sure of it.  Hahaha.  

    That's classic coming from someone whose post was the nonsensical one.
  • Reply 67 of 170
    sflocal wrote: »
    "A total of 158 bus drivers working for Compass Transportation..."

    Fix your headline. This has NOTHING to do with Apple, Google, etc., and everything to do with Compass Transportation.

    What next AI? Gonna post news when workers at a company that supplies toilet paper to Apple's bathrooms are gonna unionize too?

    Jeez... click bait.

    And Foxconn. Remember the golden rule of click bait: all controverseies roll uphill (to One Infinite Loop).
  • Reply 68 of 170
    jfc1138jfc1138 Posts: 3,090member
    So Apple's high definition mapping is to automate their contract vendors shuttles?

    Always thinking if the future!
  • Reply 69 of 170
    newbeenewbee Posts: 2,055member
    I will comment on just a few things. Just like "happy" couples don't get a divorce, happy employees don't invite unions into their workplace. Too many people have short memories when it comes to unions. I had the luxury of having been on both sides of this coin. As well as having owned and operated a small business for the last 35 years, I spent 14 years in a union job, funnily enough, driving a trolley bus in Vancouver, which, I imagine to be comparable to the bus drivers in this story, just more difficult, being a trolley and all.

    When I was being interviewed for that job I was asked for my view on unions. I told them that I had no experience with unions but, imo, unions were necessary to balance the power in the workplace. As we all know, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. In any large group of people, whether in the workplace or political party or even a two person relationship, there will be differences of opinion and the best outcome will always be one where there is no fear of compromising.

    Are there people in union jobs that do the minimum amount of work because of the security that the union affords them? Absolutely. By the same token, are there companies that abuse people's rights because of no union presence? You betcha. In a perfect world none of this would matter as we would all strive to "do the right thing". Alas, we do not live in a perfect world. The fact is that everybody's standard of living has risen due largely to a union presence in the workplace. Prior to unions the workplace was a very different beast than it is now. Shorter workweeks, more vacation time, stat holidays all can be traced back to union presence in the workplace.

    If I had one wish re: these boards, it would be that everyone would have to try and see the world through the "other person's eyes". To imagine that our opinion and only our opinion is the one that matters is arrogance at it's worst.

    Lastly, I think the real culprit in all of this are the governments who have debased our currency, through the act of the relentless printing of money, rather than balancing the budgets, and the continuation of that will be the downfall of our society as we know it. Everyone talks of the price of everything as increasing whereas the truth is the value of our currency is going down......and that fact falls directly at the feet of government and the financial industry "geniuses" who "guide"them. The last economic collapse of 2008/2009 was the worst in history. With all the world governments practising the same fiat system of money, the next one, which is surely coming, may well be the one that does us in.
  • Reply 70 of 170
    I think it's a good thing for people that work and provide a valuable service. I'm happy that there is finally some momentum towards raising salaries instead of lowering them for the average worker.
  • Reply 71 of 170
    mstonemstone Posts: 11,510member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DavidW View Post

     
    Not that easy, once the unions gets their foot in the door. A non union bus service would be faced with picketers (most likely homeless people hired by the unions at below minimum wage) harassing the riders at all their bus stops, and possible vandalism of their buses. The tech companies that hires a non union bus service would also be picketed. With their customers also being harassed.  It's how the union competes.  


    Yeah you are probably right.

     

    I had one run in with the union early in my career. My first job out of college was a computer/software/hardware technician in the operating room at a large regional hospital. At the time it was a new job classification so they assigned me to the nurse's union. I had no seniority so I had to work graveyard shift and on call holidays all day. Anyway, the only type of patients we saw were car crash emergencies. I was really dedicated to the work, however the nurses decided they were going on strike for higher wages which left me in a quandary. All the nurses liked me and were really friendly but I felt that my patients were more important so I refused to go on strike.

     

    Two weeks later when the strike was over, no one would even talk to me or say hello. Being young, inexperienced and a little unsure what to do, they essentially forced me to quit. That is when I went into publishing using my computer skills.

     

    Unions have some beneficial qualities but they can get into a mob mentality which isn't really fair or helpful to other people just trying to do their job.

  • Reply 72 of 170
    sflocalsflocal Posts: 4,625member

    Wow... there's a lot of ignorance and hate on this subject.  I don't think for one moment that bus drivers are "stupid".  I work all the time with folks in low-skilled work, and most are very smart, and very capable people.   Folks here stereotyping them as "stupid" are the stupid ones.  In my experience, most (but not all) folks here in the bay area doing those kind of jobs arguably do not fit the mold as one where college is the right path for them.



    College is not a guarantee of success, not by a long shot.  If I were a bus driver and unhappy with no real recourse, I would honestly do what I can do better myself, even if it meant going out of my comfort zone and creating / looking for opportunities.  Sure, easier said than done and much more difficult if I were supporting a family but the reality is no one is going to look out for you, except you.  Take a night course somewhere, network with people, find resources to help, it's out there.  Heck, how many times have we heard about some foreigner that comes here with $20 in their pocket and succeeds?  It's hard work, but focus and determination do pay off I'd like to think!



    At the end, this issue has NOTHING to do with Apple, and everything to do with Compass Transportation.  Apple just gets an invoice every month from this company for $X.XX for "Transportation Services".  That's it.  If next month the amount doubles because Compass has to double pay of their workers, or whatever... so be it.  Apple can decide to continue business with them, or find alternate services, or maybe tell their own workers to drive themselves to work.  Either way, the market will adjust.  It's not Apple's problem and SHAME ON APPLEINSIDER for keeping their misleading headline for the sake of click-bait.

  • Reply 73 of 170
    sflocalsflocal Posts: 4,625member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mstone View Post

     

    Yeah you are probably right.

     

    I had one run in with the union early in my career. My first job out of college was a computer/software/hardware technician in the operating room at a large regional hospital. At the time it was a new job classification so they assigned me to the nurse's union. I had no seniority so I had to work graveyard shift and on call holidays all day. Anyway, the only type of patients we saw were car crash emergencies. I was really dedicated to the work, however the nurses decided they were going on strike for higher wages which left me in a quandary. All the nurses liked me and were really friendly but I felt that my patients were more important so I refused to go on strike.

     

    Two weeks later when the strike was over, no one would even talk to me or say hello. Being young, inexperienced and a little unsure what to do, they essentially forced me to quit. That is when I went into publishing using my computer skills.

     

    Unions have some beneficial qualities but they can get into a mob mentality which isn't really fair or helpful to other people just trying to do their job.




    Fcuk-em.  It's stories like yours that puts me in my anti-union mode.  Unions had a purpose back in time when they were needed, but they are obsolete today.  They are all about milking everybody else for their own greed.  Period.



    I have an extended family member that works for BART here in the bay area.  When they go on strike because BART wants to raise their health plans up $5/mo, and they only pay $50/month for their insurance, I get right in his face.  Surprisingly, he always tells me that he is against the strike and that the Union is just being greedy and not connected with reality.  



    Look at what the union did to the west coast ports.  Shut them down.  Boats with containers circling the water for weeks waiting for the ports to open so they can unload their cargo.  Truck drivers spending all day waiting, doing nothing because some a$$hole unions wanted to pick their own arbitrator for whining issues, as opposed to selecting a neutral 3rd-party.  Really?  All they do is operate cranes in their cushy A/C-controlled cranes and make $200K+ a year, with cadillac benefits.  



    Their ignorance and greed put the company I work at on the brink of collapse because we can't get our raw-materials in.  A higher-up went to a meeting with the port-folks and was stunned to hear about an argument with a striking dock worker for demanding to be paid for not working during the strike.  Pure greed.



    That's one sector I'm so looking forward to getting automated to kick them out.  Modern unions are a cancer that breeds corruption.

  • Reply 74 of 170
    mstonemstone Posts: 11,510member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sflocal View Post

     

    College is not a guarantee of success, not by a long shot. 


    My brother lives in Boulder CO, a very cool college town. He reports that there are Ph.Ds working as waiters in restaurants and clerks at Staples. They apparently just don't want to leave Boulder so they take whatever work they can find. Sort of stupid Ph.Ds if you ask me. Take a high paying job somewhere else and then use your savings to move back to Boulder and start some high tech business. Sometimes even geniuses don't have any common sense.

  • Reply 75 of 170
    mstone wrote: »
    My brother lives in Boulder CO, a very cool college town. He reports that there are Ph.Ds working as waiters in restaurants and clerks at Staples. They apparently just don't want to leave Boulder so they take whatever work they can find. Sort of stupid Ph.Ds if you ask me. Take a high paying job somewhere else and then use your savings to move back to Boulder and start some high tech business. Sometimes even geniuses don't have any common sense.

    If one's goal is to make money at the expense of family, community, happiness, or other aspects that make up a comfortable and fulfilling life then, sure, working for a low wage in an expensive city when one doesn't have to isn't very smart. But why assume that is everyone's goal? I moved to a city because of its size, location, year round climate (daily highs and lows, and seasonal highs and lows, and average), air quality, and culture, knowing full well that it was expensive and had no good options for my particular set of skills.
  • Reply 76 of 170
    newbee wrote: »
    I will comment on just a few things. Just like "happy" couples don't get a divorce, happy employees don't invite unions into their workplace. Too many people have short memories when it comes to unions. I had the luxury of having been on both sides of this coin. As well as having owned and operated a small business for the last 35 years, I spent 14 years in a union job, funnily enough, driving a trolley bus in Vancouver, which, I imagine to be comparable to the bus drivers in this story, just more difficult, being a trolley and all.

    When I was being interviewed for that job I was asked for my view on unions. I told them that I had no experience with unions but, imo, unions were necessary to balance the power in the workplace. As we all know, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. In any large group of people, whether in the workplace or political party or even a two person relationship, there will be differences of opinion and the best outcome will always be one where there is no fear of compromising.

    Are there people in union jobs that do the minimum amount of work because of the security that the union affords them? Absolutely. By the same token, are there companies that abuse people's rights because of no union presence? You betcha. In a perfect world none of this would matter as we would all strive to "do the right thing". Alas, we do not live in a perfect world. The fact is that everybody's standard of living has risen due largely to a union presence in the workplace. Prior to unions the workplace was a very different beast than it is now. Shorter workweeks, more vacation time, stat holidays all can be traced back to union presence in the workplace.

    If I had one wish re: these boards, it would be that everyone would have to try and see the world through the "other person's eyes". To imagine that our opinion and only our opinion is the one that matters is arrogance at it's worst.

    Lastly, I think the real culprit in all of this are the governments who have debased our currency, through the act of the relentless printing of money, rather than balancing the budgets, and the continuation of that will be the downfall of our society as we know it. Everyone talks of the price of everything as increasing whereas the truth is the value of our currency is going down......and that fact falls directly at the feet of government and the financial industry "geniuses" who "guide"them. The last economic collapse of 2008/2009 was the worst in history. With all the world governments practising the same fiat system of money, the next one, which is surely coming, may well be the one that does us in.

    The "commonly accepted knowledge" with regard to unions is not correct. American prosperity was already on an upswing, wages were rising and the number of hours per week people were willing to work were already being shortened by the time big labor was a part of the picture. In fact, it was because of the pace of growing business that most were able to absorb and pass along these additional costs to consumers. When the rapid pace of business growth started to slow and the bottom fell out, the generous labor contracts and perks could not be maintained. Mass manufacturing relocated to China and the needs of businesses in America shifted to service, white collar and online. This same upward trajectory can be seen in China as they move from a manufacturing economy into services and technology. Manufacturing and labor intensive work has been transitioning to poorer and less developed countries for some time now.
  • Reply 77 of 170
    dasanman69dasanman69 Posts: 12,980member
    sflocal wrote: »
     They are all about milking everybody else for their own greed.  Period.

    Funny how nobody ever sees corporations as being greedy. There's greed everywhere, and that of unions pales in comparison to most corporations. The CEO of Toyota salary was $1.9 million last year. Yet the CEOs in US take obscene annual salaries that are way more than most people make in a lifetime.
  • Reply 78 of 170
    mpantonempantone Posts: 1,383member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post





    Yet everything you listed is done on free time. I meant free time as opposed to work which the hours spent doing has increased, not decreased.



    Nope. You can buy airplane tickets, gas, books, etc. while you are working for your job.

     

    Here's another work specific example. A few years ago employees were required to fill out a form for time off requests (originally printed out, filled out, signed and sent via interoffice mail). Today, it's an e-mail to my manager and the payroll person. If my boss replies "approved", that's all that's necessary.

     

    Another business focused example? Snapping a photo of a business card and having that import into your contact list (note that this could be a Salesforce database).

     

    Try another lie.

     

    To reiterate, there are plenty of efficiencies that computers have brought.

     

    You are stuck in the 20th century. You have been left behind.

  • Reply 79 of 170
    Did Apple][ get banned? I figure he'd be all over this one
  • Reply 80 of 170
    dasanman69dasanman69 Posts: 12,980member
    mpantone wrote: »
    Nope. You can buy airplane tickets, gas, books, etc. while you are working for your job.

    Try another lie.

    Unless your job calls for you to do that it shouldn't be done on company time, and I'm sure they frown upon it.
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