I think the following quotation from Junkyard Dawg sets the stakes in pretty stark, extreme, and (for high end users, at least) VALID terms:
[quote] I believe Apple is acting so confidently in this high-stakes, high-performance market because they've got the hardware to run with the big boys. It's not here quite yet, but come MWNY it will be. At the very latest, the new hardware may be announced at MWSF, but I'll be surprised if it comes so late in the game.
If the G4 were all Apple had to rely on, and all they had to look forward to were incremental bumps in G4 design like the one's we've been witnessing lately, then there is NO WAY Apple could hope to become competitive in any high performance markets. It is the G5 that Apple is counting on.
It all fits. The recent migration of consumer lines to the G4, the stagnation of the Powermac line with the same pitiful motherboard for so long, the recent low-key revision of the Powermacs...Apple is on the verge of introducing a radically new Powermac line, one that will change the face of computing as we know it. Get ready to see the iMac bumped to a GHz G4 at MWNY, and for the iBook to migrate to the G4. The current processor lineup represents Apple's future low end.
I suspect the new Powermacs will have a new motherboard that lays to rests any worries about bandwidth, and GHz will be impressive to say the least. The high end will be around 1.4 or 1.6 GHz, dual CPU. It will rock.
If I'm wrong then may God save Apple, because they are otherwise doomed.<hr></blockquote>
The Dawg has sent us over a thousand posts from his Junkyard, and for that intensity of interest alone I look for him to have a high degree of insight, intuition, and incisiveness.
I think the appleinsider forum, in general, tends to attract a more discriminating and demanding Mac user than we see in most other forums and Mac-oriented publications, and we're hearing some of their voices in this thread.
After spending the last four months reading the AI boards, I find that when I switch to, say, Macworld, it's as if Apple's motherboard shortcomings don't exist. I was actually surprised to see that in this month's issue, the editors in fact acknowledged Apple's need to improve its motherboard offerings. The magazine did so in an article about the performance of the G4, with an upbeat assessment vaguely reminiscent of a high school yearbook commemorative on the pep club. If the Macworld staff have better information than we do (which is likely), I'm afraid that all we can expect for the summer are modest improvements.
However, that doesn't negate what the Dawg has said about the G5's arrival down the line, or for that matter the arrival of another CPU (a la IBM). If Jobs wants Hollywood, then he knows that Apple can't confidently continue down the same path it has been on with its motherboards and the incrementally evolving G4.
So hang on Res, Percolate, and all other dismayed Mac fans. Some may hear truth in what you say and others may just hear a whine, but the Dawg has been barking, too. You're not alone. And here's the best comfort of all: Steve Jobs has been barking even louder--at Motorola ... at his own people ... and at the door of a crappy Wintel monopoly. He doesn't want to lose anymore than any of us do.
------------------------------
Hanging with Willie and Emmylou and Another Big Dawg in Nashvegas
Windows 2000 is rock-solid, stable, runs everything under the sun, is easy to use, and the whole damn set up cost me $1103.
I don't see what the big fuss is. I only had about $1000 to spend (and even then, I cheated), and I wasn't going to buy an iMac (this was the old iMac days).
Now, I'll admit, as I get more into DV, I'm kind of intrigued by FCP3. I got to play with at school, and it is tres cool. If I decide to go FCP3, then I'll buy a Mac.
Sheesh. You people all act like if you switch, you're stuck forever. They are just computers, people.
btw, JYD is bound to be SERIOUSLY dissapointed, as......
There
Is
No
G
5
[ 05-10-2002: Message edited by: There is no g5 ]</p>
Some Mac users don't understand why other Mac users complain about being behind in power and performance relative to PC's. The simple matter is that at one time, Macs were more powerful than PCs. Apple loved shouting that fact from the roof tops. They fought for and won the business of many power users. "Power users". These are the users who are in it primarily for the POWER!
Those of you who think that bleeding edge power is not all that important are obviously not power users. Trust me, you don't won't Apple's power users to just shut up and go away. They are an important slice of Apple's marketshare pie. You also need to understant that if it was OK for them to be drawn to Apple because they were the most powerful solution, then it is perfectly reasonable for them to leave Apple because they are the least powerful solution.
Some of you may not need a seriously powerful G5, but Apple sure does if they intend to maintain their power user base.
"I am an unhappy Mac user...[who has owned every model since the beginning]"
If you are so unhappy with Mac's, why have you continued to use them for so long?
Apple is doing better than EVER right now. They have so much promise for the future when compared to others (read 800 pound gorilla). Their OS is killer. Their SMP support is sickly awesome. There are finally games being made for our platform, on our platform (not shitty ports..though there are still plenty of those...) There is attention being received from places never before seen! "Power User" Linux people's jaws are dropping about Darwin and OS X and how f*cking cool it is that apple is seeding every machine with open source development tools. Development is SO fun on the Mac it makes me LAUGH when i am cranking away with tsch, ssh, PB and IB and developing BEAUTIFUL java applications...
Intel chips are faster. That means absolutely squat. You have a Mac for a reason. If I need to explain to you why you have stuck with the Mac this far, then PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE by a PC and leave this forum. We'll see you back when you get tired of rebooting XP and having your address book distributed by worm s.
Macs are the shit. Disagree? Go ahead. Then explain why you've been using them for so long with such devotion, only to leave the company now in its most exciting time of its existence! Things are better (and GETTING better) all the time (thanks Beatles! ) on the Apple front than just a few years ago. You should have left then.
I really challenge all those people that think the grass is greener in Bill's pasture to spend a massive chunk of change on a machine you know in the depths of your heart is going to end up being a POS that can't do half the crap your Mac could. I can't even imagine spending hard-earned money on anything BUT a Mac, if only because I still use my old macs! OS 9 runs great on old machines. Try installing Win2000 (or even 98) on anything under 200MHz from the x86 family.
What is happening here is called WHINING. There is no legitimate reason for it other than to read your own text (i.e. expressing your whine will not make your machine faster nor will it make Apple jump when you say.) SJ is a dictator. All we can do is hope he has an Ace or two up his sleeve (and honestly, when has he not? )
Wanna PC? Get one and get out of here. I reserve all rights for told-you-sos for the next year as Apple does ground-breaking things that will be IMPOSSIBLE on PCs.
PLEASE someone point out some more numbers that are bigger on Intel's site. PLEASE someone ELSE point to that COMPLETE BS article comparing AE on Macs and PCs.
PLEASE someone ELSE point at Intel's own patting-self-on-back-with-own-benchmarks-and-hyped-meaningless numbers.
Then go play with iTunes, iPod, iMovie, iDVD, OS X, et cetera.... realize why you are staring at a smiling computer. PLEASE.
Man why do I always fall for these stupid people's whining posts and post counter-rants...
The people most damaging to Apple's future (other than its crap marketing team) are the kind of mac users who blindly maintain that there is nothing wrong with the Mac, there are no issues and that every apple foul up is forgiveable.
Voyeur has it right.
If you think that people shouldn't complain then the fact is that you have to realise this may not be about you. Even if you don't need the power, someone else does. Even if you don't NEED the power then someone else will want it. That's how computers are sold, apple makes money and stays in business. It seems that those people who are happy with the state of mac mac machines don't really give a damn about the mac and would switch over to linux or xp without a thought if apple went under.
I have over 100 students now (doing Multimedia at various levels) who have access to a G4 suite. Will they buy a mac? any mac? no. Why? "macs are cool but slow - its not worth the money"
each one of them over the past year, despite my constant mac advice has bought a thumping PC. why? becuase after effects is much faster. Premiere renders faster, web testing is faster, their scanner will work, Lightwave renders faster, Director doesn't take a lifetime just to redraw the screen . . .
These are the other 95% that apple WANTS. the other 95% whose custom will enable Macs to become more affordable and for system enhancemnts to become quicker.
If you are not a power user then don't harrass people who are, that complain.
Its our job to keep pushing apple, to keep telling them in no uncertain terms when they're screwing us, to keep the mac the most fantastic computing experience there is.
What you have to realize is that a lot of long term Mac users need a lot of computing power. Will this generation of computers quench our thirst for speed? No. Will the next? No. What we really want is a computer that will render everything in real time, have all effects and filter be instantaneous, etc. The problem is we cant afford 100k+ render farms or SUN quad UltraSpark work stations. We have to make do with the fastest computer we can afford (around 2 to 5k). And for quite awhile that meant an Apple computer. We don't really care about toys like iTunes, iPod, iMovie, and iDVD -- sure they are cool programs and I like them, but they don't help pay the bills.
You ask: "If you are so unhappy with Mac's, why have you continued to use them for so long? "
I was quite happy with the performance of the Mac until a year or two ago. Why haven't I switched since I became dissatisfied? There are several reasons:
1 -- Software: I have several thousand dollars tied up in Mac software, and the cost of replacing it must be figured into a change in platforms.
2 -- I Love my Mac: I'm used to working on a Mac, and prefer it's overall "feel" when compared to PCs.
3 -- Hope: I've been hoping that the next upgrade will make everything better and the Mac will finally catch up.
4 -- Brand loyalty: I've been using Apple products for years, so I cut them a lot of slack.
Basically I don't want to give up my Mac, but I've been waiting for over a year for them to catch up in computing power, only to see them fall further behind. I cannot put off upgrading much longer -- I'm waiting until MWNY and then I'm buying a new computer. If the next Mac still significantly slower then it's PC counter part then I feel I have no choice but to switch over to the dark side of the force and go with a Wentel system. (Remember I'm talking computing power here, not MHz. If the G5 isn't ready and they can't fab fast enough G4s, then at least give us a quad G4!)
We unhappy Mac users are not whining as you put it. We are demanding that Apple put out faster hardware and warning them that it needs to come soon. Hopefully you are wrong and the all powerful Jobs will listen to us, because if all he hears is things like you are saying ("Apple is doing better than EVER right now," and "Intel chips are faster. That means absolutely squat.") then Apple will lose a lot of power users in the near future.
"These are the other 95% that apple WANTS. the other 95% whose custom will enable Macs to become more affordable and for system enhancemnts to become quicker."
Yep.
Fact is, that Powermac sales have been shrinking. Just compare them to a few years ago.
Without the new imac?
Apple wouldn't have had a profitable quarter. Once the initial novelty of 'home runs' like the ibook and imac wears off...then there needs to be MORE underneath 'the bonnet' to attract the 'other' 95%.
They need more than pretty computers and a good OS...and a good suite of iapps.
They need to offer more power for their Power users.
...and many PC users just aint buying the 'mhz myth'. So how are they going to convert them? Sooner or later Apple will have to address the performance gap in real terms...or 'growth' won't come.
Many people have been putting off Powermac purchases because if you're paying BMW prices you need the subsequent power that goes with it.
I don't want a BMW chassis with Ford engine.
Sales of Powermacs sez that Power users agree.
(..and I'm not sure Photoshop 7 on X will change these statistics...unless a hardware jump goes along with the release...)
Apple need a G5 impact soon. To at least give some credence that a Powermac is worth blowing over £2000 pounds for!
The fact is you can get more power for a third of the price and the 'other' 95% chooses to do so.
That doesn't mean apple have to be the cheapest 'box maker' out there...but it would be nice to have Apple competing in each market segment...even if they were the 'upper' part of each market.
Yes. You get what you pay for. But right now? The G4 looks overpriced, out of date and under powered.
I think Res and co. have a right to complain and moan about this. If Macs cost an arm and a leg to buy...then your core base of 'loyal' users can only afford to upgrade every what? Four to five years (if you're me...) If Apple hadn't had the G4 mac debacle and had drove their Powermac prices down further rather than hiking them up...then maybe their 'core' market and the 'other' 95% may consider buying them.
Seems to me that many 'core' Mac men voted with their feet and went Wintel. You can only fleece your core market so often... With publishing and education strongholds being eaten into by x86...then Apple should wake up and smell the coffee...
I know a school that won't be blowing £12000 on Macs. Why? Because they can get faster, cheaper more value for money by going to Wintel.
I don't like it. (And I could make a case for Macs in overall value...) But if you look at the base line which many do? Then its not hard to see why Dell and co. have penetrated Apple's crucial American Education market.
If I'm buying a Powermac for over £2000? Do I want a dual G4 1.2-4 dual with mobo revision? No. I don't. Because it's last years model and it'll arrive at Macworld New York a year late.
Fine. Okay. But I won't be buying until the performance gap for my money is narrowed with the 'competition'. There are many notice boards ringing with the same message. The Powermacs are poor value and people are keeping their wallets shut.
If I'm paying that kinda dosh then I want G5 performance.
[quote]Apple is doing better than EVER right now. <hr></blockquote>
In many respects, what Asian says is true. Apple is way out front in myriad ways. They're kicking serious poto in the terms he outlined, but the so-called whiners are also onto something--and it's a problem that will DAWG Apple until it truly augments its power line.
I suspect that the AE article was not "COMPLETE BS" as Asian suggests. (To be honest, I tend to be wary of absolutes like "complete," anyway.) At work I use an 867mhz G4 and a set of Sony VAIO's (1.8 P4). I prefer OS X and OS 9.2 to XP, and Asian is right about the reboots in XP. That said, the VAIOs are faster at many tasks when using the same aps (Photoshop and After Effects) despite double the memory on the G4. But I'm not going to buy a Wintel box for my work at home. The overall experience on a Mac is markedly better. I'll stick with Apple, but NOT BECAUSE OF THEIR HARDWARE but because of a magnificent OS and great aps like Final Cut Pro. That doesn't mean that I won't rant a bit now and then about a flaw in an otherwise stellar company. Nor will I complain about those who do. To the extent that Apple listens to forums like this one, the criticism may be constructive.
<strong>2000 MWSF: Apples last chance... Apple is doomed!
2000 MWNY: Apples last chance... Apple is doomed!
2001 MWSF: Apples last chance... Apple is doomed!
2001 MWNY: Apples last chance... Apple is doomed!
2002 MWSF: Apples last chance... Apple is doomed!
2002 MWNY: Apples last chance... Apple is doomed!
</strong><hr></blockquote>
LOL -- I agree with you sentiments -- I'm not selling my Apple stock!
If you read my post you would see that I never said that Apple was in danger of going under. I said that if they don't come out with pro-hardware that is at least in the same ball park with the current WinTel systems, in raw computing power, that I would give up on Apple and switch over to WinTels, and that there are probably a lot of other high end Mac users that feel the same way.
This is the way I see the last few Mac Expos:
G4 Powermac Tower history
2000 MWSF: Not even a speed bump... stuck at: G4: 500 Mhz, bus speed: 100 Mhz
Wentel: 800Mhz, bus speed: 133 Mhz
Since the introduction of the PPC Apple has generally been ahead of the competition. WinTels might be a little higher in MHz and Bus speed, but it's not enough to really overcome the superiority of the G4.
2000 MWNY: Dual 500 Mhz bus speed: 100 Mhz
WinTel:1.1Ghz bus speed: 200 Mhz,
G4 still stuck at 500Mhz so they double the processors. Most Applications don't benefit from second processor, but I recommend one to my sister anyway (upgrading from a PowerMac 7200). Starting to wonder how long this trend will continue -- and hope Apple catches up or passes WinTels on the next upgrade.
2001 MWSF: Single 733Mhz G4 bus speed: 133 Mhz
WinTel: 1.3GHz Bus:400
What's Apple up to? I thought Dual Processors were the future of Macs... Not the time to upgrade. (Of course, you can get dual WinTel systems...).
2001 MWNY: Dual 800 Mhz G4 bus speed: 133 Mhz
WinTel: P4 2Ghz, Bus 400/133, or Athlon 1.4 GHz, Bus: 266
Ok, we are back to dual processors, but only at 800 MHz and a bus speed of 133 Mhz? When you can get Dual Wentel systems at 1.4 to 2Ghz with a bus speeds of 266-400MHz? *sigh*
2002 MWSF: Dual 1Ghz bus speed: 133 Mhz --
WinTel: 2.4 with Rambus 400MHz, or 1.67GHz w 266MHz DDR
Macs are falling so far behind it is just ridiculous...
2002 MWNY: ????
WinTel ????
Apple has been trying to keep up with WinTels by using dual processors. The problem with that strategy is that you can also get dual Wentel systems.
To satisfy the high-end Mac user, Apple needs to come out with something a lot more powerful in the next few months. It looks like the G5 isn't going to make MWNY, so maybe something along the lines of dual G4s at 1.6 Ghz with DDR 333 and built in RAID. Or how about a Quad G4? I'd lay out another 1-2K for 2 more processors...
In the last year Apple has come out with a really great new operating system (I'm a long time UNIX fan), and some really cool products, but it really needs to do something about the state of its top of the line hardware.
I'm with Aslan; things are absolutely better than ever. I might have considered abandoning the Mac five, six years ago - but today? Are you serious??
I suppose the good old days were back when Apple's hardware offerings were bewildering, insipid and buggy, and its OS development went nowhere. When there was no decent complete system under two grand, no way to configure a Mac yourself, and nearly everything was non-standard. And when sales started falling through the floor, Apple swam in red ink, ISVs withdrew support and Mac users endured constant frustration as the platform looked to collapse.
But hey - PowerPC maintained (clock) parity with x86 in 1997. Yay.
Of course, it would be great if such were the case with PowerPC today - but it isn't. If that's a deal-breaker for you, then the writing is on the wall. It has been for some time now. You can pretend not to see it for 'hope and love and loyalty' (?), but that serves neither yourself nor those subjected to your whining.
"I am an unhappy Mac user...[who has owned every model since the beginning]"
If you are so unhappy with Mac's, why have you continued to use them for so long?
Apple is doing better than EVER right now. They have so much promise for the future when compared to others (read 800 pound gorilla). Their OS is killer. Their SMP support is sickly awesome. There are finally games being made for our platform, on our platform (not shitty ports..though there are still plenty of those...) There is attention being received from places never before seen! "Power User" Linux people's jaws are dropping about Darwin and OS X and how f*cking cool it is that apple is seeding every machine with open source development tools. Development is SO fun on the Mac it makes me LAUGH when i am cranking away with tsch, ssh, PB and IB and developing BEAUTIFUL java applications...
Intel chips are faster. That means absolutely squat. You have a Mac for a reason. If I need to explain to you why you have stuck with the Mac this far, then PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE by a PC and leave this forum. We'll see you back when you get tired of rebooting XP and having your address book distributed by worm s.
Macs are the shit. Disagree? Go ahead. Then explain why you've been using them for so long with such devotion, only to leave the company now in its most exciting time of its existence! Things are better (and GETTING better) all the time (thanks Beatles! ) on the Apple front than just a few years ago. You should have left then.
I really challenge all those people that think the grass is greener in Bill's pasture to spend a massive chunk of change on a machine you know in the depths of your heart is going to end up being a POS that can't do half the crap your Mac could. I can't even imagine spending hard-earned money on anything BUT a Mac, if only because I still use my old macs! OS 9 runs great on old machines. Try installing Win2000 (or even 98) on anything under 200MHz from the x86 family.
What is happening here is called WHINING. There is no legitimate reason for it other than to read your own text (i.e. expressing your whine will not make your machine faster nor will it make Apple jump when you say.) SJ is a dictator. All we can do is hope he has an Ace or two up his sleeve (and honestly, when has he not? )
Wanna PC? Get one and get out of here. I reserve all rights for told-you-sos for the next year as Apple does ground-breaking things that will be IMPOSSIBLE on PCs.
PLEASE someone point out some more numbers that are bigger on Intel's site. PLEASE someone ELSE point to that COMPLETE BS article comparing AE on Macs and PCs.
PLEASE someone ELSE point at Intel's own patting-self-on-back-with-own-benchmarks-and-hyped-meaningless numbers.
Then go play with iTunes, iPod, iMovie, iDVD, OS X, et cetera.... realize why you are staring at a smiling computer. PLEASE.
Man why do I always fall for these stupid people's whining posts and post counter-rants... </strong><hr></blockquote>
Just about exactly what went through my head when I read the first part of this thread. <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />
Firstly, Sybaritic!!! Thanks for the help man I appreciate that you share my opinion in a few spots...but its ASLAN not ASIAN. One is a turkish word for Lion and a character from a great series of books by C.S. Lewis, the other is a race of humankind.... Just HAD to clarify...just a pet peeve or whatever... <img src="graemlins/embarrassed.gif" border="0" alt="[Embarrassed]" />
Anyhow...
[quote]
StarfleetX said:
2000 MWSF: Apples last chance... Apple is doomed!
2000 MWNY: Apples last chance... Apple is doomed!
2001 MWSF: Apples last chance... Apple is doomed!
2001 MWNY: Apples last chance... Apple is doomed!
2002 MWSF: Apples last chance... Apple is doomed!
2002 MWNY: Apples last chance... Apple is doomed!
<hr></blockquote>
This is the exact sentiment that made me click on the forum link for this thread and heat up the particle cannons. Maybe its just me but do people wear blinders that make them forget the past a LOT. As I read the thread I understood the arguments and the fundamental strengths (or lackof) behind them. That is why i posted.
Ok. Apple doesn't make marketshare targeting PowerUsers. I hate this fact, but despite my displeasure about this fact it is the plain truth. Sorry. It is.
They have never courted much of a high end philosophy because they always insist on making that last bit of great performance cost soooo much! They are not like Sun, who throws in a tightly integrated, expensive, powerful workstation for intense computing demands. Macs are sold to lawyers. Lawyers are stupid. (no offense, but you get my point about the real target audience. Johnny Cochran (sp? ..must have read it 8 times a day at one point! ) doens't care about Photoshop filters (unless they are saving OJ).
I am a PowerUser. I have no explanation for the fact that there are no quad-G4 MPs w/ DDR RAM. Except that these machines are not in their business plan right now. They may not be for a bit.
Maybe it is the degree in CS that I have or something, but I really don't understand why people are still misunderstanding/not-seeing the importance of OS X over what is happening on the other side. OS X makes arguments like "there are also MP wintels" not-hold-much-water, if only for the fact that OS X is in much better shape to be a scalably SMPing OS than the other side. The Law of Diminishing Returns bytes (hee hee) the PC people in the ass LONG before the Mac people by the very nature of our new-yet-unpolished OS.
About that AE on PC and Mac. Ok, I am not going to argue the fact that in those tests the guy ran, the PC out-performed the Mac in numbers. This ignores several things that make me squint at his results from a practical perspective. Ok. The guy removed things from the PC to compare with the mac, except he didn't. he replaced the onboard system with a RAID on the PC (or something...), and cut down his RAM instead of giving the Mac more. Ok. I understand the out-of-the-box testing mentality. But anyone who knows anything about OS X would quickly point out the fact that the 512 MB just ain't enough to count beans with, especially doing AE effects! A Gig at least would be there in a real-wrold situation, even if you DID have to buy it and put it in. Anyhow, the horse is near death here, but you can see my skepticism. If you are going to compare two systems, make sure you are playing on a level field w.r.t. other factors besides ships-with and clockspeed. I mean hell, I read that article and it was like they were laying a .22 next to a .357 and saying that "Hey they are the same length! They must be the same!" Yes a crippled Mac will underperform. Duh.
This is how I like to look at things. Bear with me. Think of a linear graph. Think of an exponential graph. I see speedbumps on wintel (linear), I see SMP on Apple's side (exponential...sortof...again, bear with me). Overlap those two graphs and look at the origin and a few steps beyond and realize that the exponent grows slowly at first, well under the linear line, but will shoot past and never look back when things start to pick up. This is what I see happening as a result of this phatty OS being used on proper hardware.
Motorola is acting stupid as usual and i think that sadly it is one of the greatest problems for the future of apple at the moment. Is there a mythical x86 solution? I doubt it, at least not one we will see. Something else then? I don't know. But I will not give up hope now!
Geez, I didn't even touch on the productivity of the environment argument (i.e. why we are using Macs in the first place). Get a real fast Windows machine. Sorry. Still windows. i.e. polish a piece of shit, its STILL a piece of shit.)
I am among those that would almost rather stay in our little market-share corner. I fear that once we get the market attention, virus writers will start to notice, etc... We may regret the growing popularity.
But I doubt it.
(Aslan straps his helmet back on, jumps back in the bunker and a muffled voice yells "Flame Away Boys!")
I kid at school the other day offered to trade me 1.6 gig athlon for a 500mhz G3 iMac. Seems he couldn't get his video editing software to run on his PC like iMovie did on the iMac. I said no of course. If it doesn't do what you want it to do, it doesn't matter how fast it is. Meanwhile, another kid has loaded windows MP onto my G4 733, after altering the OSX windows to look like XP. This kid will do anything to try and convince himself he doesn't like this machine. He too has a very high end x86 system at home. Windows people just don't get it. IT ISN"T THE HARDWARE.
Comments
[quote] I believe Apple is acting so confidently in this high-stakes, high-performance market because they've got the hardware to run with the big boys. It's not here quite yet, but come MWNY it will be. At the very latest, the new hardware may be announced at MWSF, but I'll be surprised if it comes so late in the game.
If the G4 were all Apple had to rely on, and all they had to look forward to were incremental bumps in G4 design like the one's we've been witnessing lately, then there is NO WAY Apple could hope to become competitive in any high performance markets. It is the G5 that Apple is counting on.
It all fits. The recent migration of consumer lines to the G4, the stagnation of the Powermac line with the same pitiful motherboard for so long, the recent low-key revision of the Powermacs...Apple is on the verge of introducing a radically new Powermac line, one that will change the face of computing as we know it. Get ready to see the iMac bumped to a GHz G4 at MWNY, and for the iBook to migrate to the G4. The current processor lineup represents Apple's future low end.
I suspect the new Powermacs will have a new motherboard that lays to rests any worries about bandwidth, and GHz will be impressive to say the least. The high end will be around 1.4 or 1.6 GHz, dual CPU. It will rock.
If I'm wrong then may God save Apple, because they are otherwise doomed.<hr></blockquote>
The Dawg has sent us over a thousand posts from his Junkyard, and for that intensity of interest alone I look for him to have a high degree of insight, intuition, and incisiveness.
I think the appleinsider forum, in general, tends to attract a more discriminating and demanding Mac user than we see in most other forums and Mac-oriented publications, and we're hearing some of their voices in this thread.
After spending the last four months reading the AI boards, I find that when I switch to, say, Macworld, it's as if Apple's motherboard shortcomings don't exist. I was actually surprised to see that in this month's issue, the editors in fact acknowledged Apple's need to improve its motherboard offerings. The magazine did so in an article about the performance of the G4, with an upbeat assessment vaguely reminiscent of a high school yearbook commemorative on the pep club. If the Macworld staff have better information than we do (which is likely), I'm afraid that all we can expect for the summer are modest improvements.
However, that doesn't negate what the Dawg has said about the G5's arrival down the line, or for that matter the arrival of another CPU (a la IBM). If Jobs wants Hollywood, then he knows that Apple can't confidently continue down the same path it has been on with its motherboards and the incrementally evolving G4.
So hang on Res, Percolate, and all other dismayed Mac fans. Some may hear truth in what you say and others may just hear a whine, but the Dawg has been barking, too. You're not alone. And here's the best comfort of all: Steve Jobs has been barking even louder--at Motorola ... at his own people ... and at the door of a crappy Wintel monopoly. He doesn't want to lose anymore than any of us do.
------------------------------
Hanging with Willie and Emmylou and Another Big Dawg in Nashvegas
<a href="http://www.littlevinnie.com"; target="_blank">http://www.littlevinnie.com</a>;
That's what I did.
Windows 2000 is rock-solid, stable, runs everything under the sun, is easy to use, and the whole damn set up cost me $1103.
I don't see what the big fuss is. I only had about $1000 to spend (and even then, I cheated), and I wasn't going to buy an iMac (this was the old iMac days).
Now, I'll admit, as I get more into DV, I'm kind of intrigued by FCP3. I got to play with at school, and it is tres cool. If I decide to go FCP3, then I'll buy a Mac.
Sheesh. You people all act like if you switch, you're stuck forever. They are just computers, people.
btw, JYD is bound to be SERIOUSLY dissapointed, as......
There
Is
No
G
5
[ 05-10-2002: Message edited by: There is no g5 ]</p>
$10 says his post count doesn't break 5.
Those of you who think that bleeding edge power is not all that important are obviously not power users. Trust me, you don't won't Apple's power users to just shut up and go away. They are an important slice of Apple's marketshare pie. You also need to understant that if it was OK for them to be drawn to Apple because they were the most powerful solution, then it is perfectly reasonable for them to leave Apple because they are the least powerful solution.
Some of you may not need a seriously powerful G5, but Apple sure does if they intend to maintain their power user base.
-------------------
<a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004RDUO/qid=1021032779/ref=sr_11_0_1/002-2560352-5422421" target="_blank">Listening to Walt Whitman Wilkins in Nashville</a>
[ 05-10-2002: Message edited by: Amorph ]</p>
<strong>The only problem is I DON'T WANT TO GIVE UP MY MAC!!!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Q.E.D.
I think your specs for a new G4 are decent but I think Dual 1.6 are a little hopeful. I think we'll see dual 1.4(which gives 2.8ghz).
PLEASE....for the love of GOD people....
"I am an unhappy Mac user...[who has owned every model since the beginning]"
If you are so unhappy with Mac's, why have you continued to use them for so long?
Apple is doing better than EVER right now. They have so much promise for the future when compared to others (read 800 pound gorilla). Their OS is killer. Their SMP support is sickly awesome. There are finally games being made for our platform, on our platform (not shitty ports..though there are still plenty of those...) There is attention being received from places never before seen! "Power User" Linux people's jaws are dropping about Darwin and OS X and how f*cking cool it is that apple is seeding every machine with open source development tools. Development is SO fun on the Mac it makes me LAUGH when i am cranking away with tsch, ssh, PB and IB and developing BEAUTIFUL java applications...
Intel chips are faster. That means absolutely squat. You have a Mac for a reason. If I need to explain to you why you have stuck with the Mac this far, then PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE by a PC and leave this forum. We'll see you back when you get tired of rebooting XP and having your address book distributed by worm s.
Macs are the shit. Disagree? Go ahead. Then explain why you've been using them for so long with such devotion, only to leave the company now in its most exciting time of its existence! Things are better (and GETTING better) all the time (thanks Beatles!
I really challenge all those people that think the grass is greener in Bill's pasture to spend a massive chunk of change on a machine you know in the depths of your heart is going to end up being a POS that can't do half the crap your Mac could. I can't even imagine spending hard-earned money on anything BUT a Mac, if only because I still use my old macs! OS 9 runs great on old machines. Try installing Win2000 (or even 98) on anything under 200MHz from the x86 family.
What is happening here is called WHINING. There is no legitimate reason for it other than to read your own text (i.e. expressing your whine will not make your machine faster nor will it make Apple jump when you say.) SJ is a dictator. All we can do is hope he has an Ace or two up his sleeve (and honestly, when has he not?
Wanna PC? Get one and get out of here. I reserve all rights for told-you-sos for the next year as Apple does ground-breaking things that will be IMPOSSIBLE on PCs.
PLEASE someone point out some more numbers that are bigger on Intel's site. PLEASE someone ELSE point to that COMPLETE BS article comparing AE on Macs and PCs.
PLEASE someone ELSE point at Intel's own patting-self-on-back-with-own-benchmarks-and-hyped-meaningless numbers.
Then go play with iTunes, iPod, iMovie, iDVD, OS X, et cetera.... realize why you are staring at a smiling computer. PLEASE.
Man why do I always fall for these stupid people's whining posts and post counter-rants...
<strong>First, rants belong in General Discussion, so I'm moving this there.
Second, some of the language in this thread is intolerable and poisonous. Be civil.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Explain how mere words are poisonous.
Voyeur has it right.
If you think that people shouldn't complain then the fact is that you have to realise this may not be about you. Even if you don't need the power, someone else does. Even if you don't NEED the power then someone else will want it. That's how computers are sold, apple makes money and stays in business. It seems that those people who are happy with the state of mac mac machines don't really give a damn about the mac and would switch over to linux or xp without a thought if apple went under.
I have over 100 students now (doing Multimedia at various levels) who have access to a G4 suite. Will they buy a mac? any mac? no. Why? "macs are cool but slow - its not worth the money"
each one of them over the past year, despite my constant mac advice has bought a thumping PC. why? becuase after effects is much faster. Premiere renders faster, web testing is faster, their scanner will work, Lightwave renders faster, Director doesn't take a lifetime just to redraw the screen . . .
These are the other 95% that apple WANTS. the other 95% whose custom will enable Macs to become more affordable and for system enhancemnts to become quicker.
If you are not a power user then don't harrass people who are, that complain.
Its our job to keep pushing apple, to keep telling them in no uncertain terms when they're screwing us, to keep the mac the most fantastic computing experience there is.
What you have to realize is that a lot of long term Mac users need a lot of computing power. Will this generation of computers quench our thirst for speed? No. Will the next? No. What we really want is a computer that will render everything in real time, have all effects and filter be instantaneous, etc. The problem is we cant afford 100k+ render farms or SUN quad UltraSpark work stations. We have to make do with the fastest computer we can afford (around 2 to 5k). And for quite awhile that meant an Apple computer. We don't really care about toys like iTunes, iPod, iMovie, and iDVD -- sure they are cool programs and I like them, but they don't help pay the bills.
You ask: "If you are so unhappy with Mac's, why have you continued to use them for so long? "
I was quite happy with the performance of the Mac until a year or two ago. Why haven't I switched since I became dissatisfied? There are several reasons:
1 -- Software: I have several thousand dollars tied up in Mac software, and the cost of replacing it must be figured into a change in platforms.
2 -- I Love my Mac: I'm used to working on a Mac, and prefer it's overall "feel" when compared to PCs.
3 -- Hope: I've been hoping that the next upgrade will make everything better and the Mac will finally catch up.
4 -- Brand loyalty: I've been using Apple products for years, so I cut them a lot of slack.
Basically I don't want to give up my Mac, but I've been waiting for over a year for them to catch up in computing power, only to see them fall further behind. I cannot put off upgrading much longer -- I'm waiting until MWNY and then I'm buying a new computer. If the next Mac still significantly slower then it's PC counter part then I feel I have no choice but to switch over to the dark side of the force and go with a Wentel system. (Remember I'm talking computing power here, not MHz. If the G5 isn't ready and they can't fab fast enough G4s, then at least give us a quad G4!)
We unhappy Mac users are not whining as you put it. We are demanding that Apple put out faster hardware and warning them that it needs to come soon. Hopefully you are wrong and the all powerful Jobs will listen to us, because if all he hears is things like you are saying ("Apple is doing better than EVER right now," and "Intel chips are faster. That means absolutely squat.") then Apple will lose a lot of power users in the near future.
Yep.
Fact is, that Powermac sales have been shrinking. Just compare them to a few years ago.
Without the new imac?
Apple wouldn't have had a profitable quarter. Once the initial novelty of 'home runs' like the ibook and imac wears off...then there needs to be MORE underneath 'the bonnet' to attract the 'other' 95%.
They need more than pretty computers and a good OS...and a good suite of iapps.
They need to offer more power for their Power users.
...and many PC users just aint buying the 'mhz myth'. So how are they going to convert them? Sooner or later Apple will have to address the performance gap in real terms...or 'growth' won't come.
Many people have been putting off Powermac purchases because if you're paying BMW prices you need the subsequent power that goes with it.
I don't want a BMW chassis with Ford engine.
Sales of Powermacs sez that Power users agree.
(..and I'm not sure Photoshop 7 on X will change these statistics...unless a hardware jump goes along with the release...)
Apple need a G5 impact soon. To at least give some credence that a Powermac is worth blowing over £2000 pounds for!
The fact is you can get more power for a third of the price and the 'other' 95% chooses to do so.
That doesn't mean apple have to be the cheapest 'box maker' out there...but it would be nice to have Apple competing in each market segment...even if they were the 'upper' part of each market.
Yes. You get what you pay for. But right now? The G4 looks overpriced, out of date and under powered.
I think Res and co. have a right to complain and moan about this. If Macs cost an arm and a leg to buy...then your core base of 'loyal' users can only afford to upgrade every what? Four to five years (if you're me...) If Apple hadn't had the G4 mac debacle and had drove their Powermac prices down further rather than hiking them up...then maybe their 'core' market and the 'other' 95% may consider buying them.
Seems to me that many 'core' Mac men voted with their feet and went Wintel. You can only fleece your core market so often... With publishing and education strongholds being eaten into by x86...then Apple should wake up and smell the coffee...
I know a school that won't be blowing £12000 on Macs. Why? Because they can get faster, cheaper more value for money by going to Wintel.
I don't like it. (And I could make a case for Macs in overall value...) But if you look at the base line which many do? Then its not hard to see why Dell and co. have penetrated Apple's crucial American Education market.
If I'm buying a Powermac for over £2000? Do I want a dual G4 1.2-4 dual with mobo revision? No. I don't. Because it's last years model and it'll arrive at Macworld New York a year late.
Fine. Okay. But I won't be buying until the performance gap for my money is narrowed with the 'competition'. There are many notice boards ringing with the same message. The Powermacs are poor value and people are keeping their wallets shut.
If I'm paying that kinda dosh then I want G5 performance.
I don't think it's too much to ask.
You may disagree of course.
Lemon Bon Bon
2000 MWNY: Apples last chance... Apple is doomed!
2001 MWSF: Apples last chance... Apple is doomed!
2001 MWNY: Apples last chance... Apple is doomed!
2002 MWSF: Apples last chance... Apple is doomed!
2002 MWNY: Apples last chance... Apple is doomed!
In many respects, what Asian says is true. Apple is way out front in myriad ways. They're kicking serious poto in the terms he outlined, but the so-called whiners are also onto something--and it's a problem that will DAWG Apple until it truly augments its power line.
I suspect that the AE article was not "COMPLETE BS" as Asian suggests. (To be honest, I tend to be wary of absolutes like "complete," anyway.) At work I use an 867mhz G4 and a set of Sony VAIO's (1.8 P4). I prefer OS X and OS 9.2 to XP, and Asian is right about the reboots in XP. That said, the VAIOs are faster at many tasks when using the same aps (Photoshop and After Effects) despite double the memory on the G4. But I'm not going to buy a Wintel box for my work at home. The overall experience on a Mac is markedly better. I'll stick with Apple, but NOT BECAUSE OF THEIR HARDWARE but because of a magnificent OS and great aps like Final Cut Pro. That doesn't mean that I won't rant a bit now and then about a flaw in an otherwise stellar company. Nor will I complain about those who do. To the extent that Apple listens to forums like this one, the criticism may be constructive.
----------------------
Looking Up to Venus in Nashvegas
<a href="http://www.airparma.com"; target="_blank">http://www.airparma.com</a>;
<strong>2000 MWSF: Apples last chance... Apple is doomed!
2000 MWNY: Apples last chance... Apple is doomed!
2001 MWSF: Apples last chance... Apple is doomed!
2001 MWNY: Apples last chance... Apple is doomed!
2002 MWSF: Apples last chance... Apple is doomed!
2002 MWNY: Apples last chance... Apple is doomed!
LOL -- I agree with you sentiments -- I'm not selling my Apple stock!
If you read my post you would see that I never said that Apple was in danger of going under. I said that if they don't come out with pro-hardware that is at least in the same ball park with the current WinTel systems, in raw computing power, that I would give up on Apple and switch over to WinTels, and that there are probably a lot of other high end Mac users that feel the same way.
This is the way I see the last few Mac Expos:
G4 Powermac Tower history
2000 MWSF: Not even a speed bump... stuck at: G4: 500 Mhz, bus speed: 100 Mhz
Wentel: 800Mhz, bus speed: 133 Mhz
Since the introduction of the PPC Apple has generally been ahead of the competition. WinTels might be a little higher in MHz and Bus speed, but it's not enough to really overcome the superiority of the G4.
2000 MWNY: Dual 500 Mhz bus speed: 100 Mhz
WinTel:1.1Ghz bus speed: 200 Mhz,
G4 still stuck at 500Mhz so they double the processors. Most Applications don't benefit from second processor, but I recommend one to my sister anyway (upgrading from a PowerMac 7200). Starting to wonder how long this trend will continue -- and hope Apple catches up or passes WinTels on the next upgrade.
2001 MWSF: Single 733Mhz G4 bus speed: 133 Mhz
WinTel: 1.3GHz Bus:400
What's Apple up to? I thought Dual Processors were the future of Macs... Not the time to upgrade. (Of course, you can get dual WinTel systems...).
2001 MWNY: Dual 800 Mhz G4 bus speed: 133 Mhz
WinTel: P4 2Ghz, Bus 400/133, or Athlon 1.4 GHz, Bus: 266
Ok, we are back to dual processors, but only at 800 MHz and a bus speed of 133 Mhz? When you can get Dual Wentel systems at 1.4 to 2Ghz with a bus speeds of 266-400MHz? *sigh*
2002 MWSF: Dual 1Ghz bus speed: 133 Mhz --
WinTel: 2.4 with Rambus 400MHz, or 1.67GHz w 266MHz DDR
Macs are falling so far behind it is just ridiculous...
2002 MWNY: ????
WinTel ????
Apple has been trying to keep up with WinTels by using dual processors. The problem with that strategy is that you can also get dual Wentel systems.
To satisfy the high-end Mac user, Apple needs to come out with something a lot more powerful in the next few months. It looks like the G5 isn't going to make MWNY, so maybe something along the lines of dual G4s at 1.6 Ghz with DDR 333 and built in RAID. Or how about a Quad G4? I'd lay out another 1-2K for 2 more processors...
In the last year Apple has come out with a really great new operating system (I'm a long time UNIX fan), and some really cool products, but it really needs to do something about the state of its top of the line hardware.
I suppose the good old days were back when Apple's hardware offerings were bewildering, insipid and buggy, and its OS development went nowhere. When there was no decent complete system under two grand, no way to configure a Mac yourself, and nearly everything was non-standard. And when sales started falling through the floor, Apple swam in red ink, ISVs withdrew support and Mac users endured constant frustration as the platform looked to collapse.
But hey - PowerPC maintained (clock) parity with x86 in 1997. Yay.
Of course, it would be great if such were the case with PowerPC today - but it isn't. If that's a deal-breaker for you, then the writing is on the wall. It has been for some time now. You can pretend not to see it for 'hope and love and loyalty' (?), but that serves neither yourself nor those subjected to your whining.
<strong>Man I am so sick of these threads....
PLEASE....for the love of GOD people....
"I am an unhappy Mac user...[who has owned every model since the beginning]"
If you are so unhappy with Mac's, why have you continued to use them for so long?
Apple is doing better than EVER right now. They have so much promise for the future when compared to others (read 800 pound gorilla). Their OS is killer. Their SMP support is sickly awesome. There are finally games being made for our platform, on our platform (not shitty ports..though there are still plenty of those...) There is attention being received from places never before seen! "Power User" Linux people's jaws are dropping about Darwin and OS X and how f*cking cool it is that apple is seeding every machine with open source development tools. Development is SO fun on the Mac it makes me LAUGH when i am cranking away with tsch, ssh, PB and IB and developing BEAUTIFUL java applications...
Intel chips are faster. That means absolutely squat. You have a Mac for a reason. If I need to explain to you why you have stuck with the Mac this far, then PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE by a PC and leave this forum. We'll see you back when you get tired of rebooting XP and having your address book distributed by worm s.
Macs are the shit. Disagree? Go ahead. Then explain why you've been using them for so long with such devotion, only to leave the company now in its most exciting time of its existence! Things are better (and GETTING better) all the time (thanks Beatles!
I really challenge all those people that think the grass is greener in Bill's pasture to spend a massive chunk of change on a machine you know in the depths of your heart is going to end up being a POS that can't do half the crap your Mac could. I can't even imagine spending hard-earned money on anything BUT a Mac, if only because I still use my old macs! OS 9 runs great on old machines. Try installing Win2000 (or even 98) on anything under 200MHz from the x86 family.
What is happening here is called WHINING. There is no legitimate reason for it other than to read your own text (i.e. expressing your whine will not make your machine faster nor will it make Apple jump when you say.) SJ is a dictator. All we can do is hope he has an Ace or two up his sleeve (and honestly, when has he not?
Wanna PC? Get one and get out of here. I reserve all rights for told-you-sos for the next year as Apple does ground-breaking things that will be IMPOSSIBLE on PCs.
PLEASE someone point out some more numbers that are bigger on Intel's site. PLEASE someone ELSE point to that COMPLETE BS article comparing AE on Macs and PCs.
PLEASE someone ELSE point at Intel's own patting-self-on-back-with-own-benchmarks-and-hyped-meaningless numbers.
Then go play with iTunes, iPod, iMovie, iDVD, OS X, et cetera.... realize why you are staring at a smiling computer. PLEASE.
Man why do I always fall for these stupid people's whining posts and post counter-rants...
Just about exactly what went through my head when I read the first part of this thread. <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />
Alrighty, Here we go....
Firstly, Sybaritic!!! Thanks for the help man I appreciate that you share my opinion in a few spots...but its ASLAN not ASIAN. One is a turkish word for Lion and a character from a great series of books by C.S. Lewis, the other is a race of humankind.... Just HAD to clarify...just a pet peeve or whatever... <img src="graemlins/embarrassed.gif" border="0" alt="[Embarrassed]" />
Anyhow...
[quote]
StarfleetX said:
2000 MWSF: Apples last chance... Apple is doomed!
2000 MWNY: Apples last chance... Apple is doomed!
2001 MWSF: Apples last chance... Apple is doomed!
2001 MWNY: Apples last chance... Apple is doomed!
2002 MWSF: Apples last chance... Apple is doomed!
2002 MWNY: Apples last chance... Apple is doomed!
<hr></blockquote>
This is the exact sentiment that made me click on the forum link for this thread and heat up the particle cannons. Maybe its just me but do people wear blinders that make them forget the past a LOT. As I read the thread I understood the arguments and the fundamental strengths (or lackof) behind them. That is why i posted.
Ok. Apple doesn't make marketshare targeting PowerUsers. I hate this fact, but despite my displeasure about this fact it is the plain truth. Sorry. It is.
They have never courted much of a high end philosophy because they always insist on making that last bit of great performance cost soooo much! They are not like Sun, who throws in a tightly integrated, expensive, powerful workstation for intense computing demands. Macs are sold to lawyers. Lawyers are stupid. (no offense, but you get my point about the real target audience. Johnny Cochran (sp? ..must have read it 8 times a day at one point!
I am a PowerUser. I have no explanation for the fact that there are no quad-G4 MPs w/ DDR RAM. Except that these machines are not in their business plan right now. They may not be for a bit.
Maybe it is the degree in CS that I have or something, but I really don't understand why people are still misunderstanding/not-seeing the importance of OS X over what is happening on the other side. OS X makes arguments like "there are also MP wintels" not-hold-much-water, if only for the fact that OS X is in much better shape to be a scalably SMPing OS than the other side. The Law of Diminishing Returns bytes (hee hee) the PC people in the ass LONG before the Mac people by the very nature of our new-yet-unpolished OS.
About that AE on PC and Mac. Ok, I am not going to argue the fact that in those tests the guy ran, the PC out-performed the Mac in numbers. This ignores several things that make me squint at his results from a practical perspective. Ok. The guy removed things from the PC to compare with the mac, except he didn't. he replaced the onboard system with a RAID on the PC (or something...), and cut down his RAM instead of giving the Mac more. Ok. I understand the out-of-the-box testing mentality. But anyone who knows anything about OS X would quickly point out the fact that the 512 MB just ain't enough to count beans with, especially doing AE effects! A Gig at least would be there in a real-wrold situation, even if you DID have to buy it and put it in. Anyhow, the horse is near death here, but you can see my skepticism. If you are going to compare two systems, make sure you are playing on a level field w.r.t. other factors besides ships-with and clockspeed. I mean hell, I read that article and it was like they were laying a .22 next to a .357 and saying that "Hey they are the same length! They must be the same!" Yes a crippled Mac will underperform. Duh.
This is how I like to look at things. Bear with me. Think of a linear graph. Think of an exponential graph. I see speedbumps on wintel (linear), I see SMP on Apple's side (exponential...sortof...again, bear with me). Overlap those two graphs and look at the origin and a few steps beyond and realize that the exponent grows slowly at first, well under the linear line, but will shoot past and never look back when things start to pick up. This is what I see happening as a result of this phatty OS being used on proper hardware.
Motorola is acting stupid as usual and i think that sadly it is one of the greatest problems for the future of apple at the moment. Is there a mythical x86 solution? I doubt it, at least not one we will see. Something else then? I don't know. But I will not give up hope now!
Geez, I didn't even touch on the productivity of the environment argument (i.e. why we are using Macs in the first place). Get a real fast Windows machine. Sorry. Still windows. i.e. polish a piece of shit, its STILL a piece of shit.)
I am among those that would almost rather stay in our little market-share corner. I fear that once we get the market attention, virus writers will start to notice, etc... We may regret the growing popularity.
But I doubt it.
(Aslan straps his helmet back on, jumps back in the bunker and a muffled voice yells "Flame Away Boys!")