Jony Ive and Marc Newson reveal special Apple Watch Sport Band colors at Milan gala

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  • Reply 201 of 207
    gameboy70 wrote: »
    Diehard Apple fans should be worried if they find themselves in complete agreement with all of the company's developments. That would mean that they're only making things that people are asking for. No one asked for the iMac, or the MacBook Air, or the iPod, or the iPad. I personally have always disagreed with 20% of Apple's product decisions—either entire products (like the iBook) or certain features (lack of file manager on the iPad). This to me is the true "Apple tax": a few unpleasant surprised within a larger string of pleasant surprises.

    It's OK to dislike the Watch or its marketing initiatives. The world will still turn. Before long Apple will have something that will appeal to a different cohort of Apple fans.

    Of course not every Apple product is going to appeal to every person. That's not the problem here. And don't stereotype "die hard Apple fans" as uncritical of the company, because that's not the case. Apple fans complain the most about the company (but from a position of being an affected customer, and not just an anti-Apple critic who is looking to score cheap shots against Apple).

    I'm talking about dishonest trolling. It's not an expression of "I don't like this Apple product." It's use of hyperbole, overgeneralization, appeal to emotion, ad hominem attacks, circular reasoning, straw men, begging the question, appeal to probability, appeal to false authority, cherry picking evidence, moving goalposts, and other rhetorical devices to argue that Apple is doomed, and Tim Cook is the devil. For example: "Apple is doomed because Tim Cook has turned his back on Steve Jobs' vision of computers as 'bicycles for the mind'!! Here's a photo of Jony Ive with some shallow fashion industry people to prove my point!!"

    Here's an actual post from this thread:
    Look at the douche bags Ive is associated with now that Apple is filled with executives from the fashion world.

    You need to be more critical about the crap that goes on these forums.
  • Reply 202 of 207
    radarthekatradarthekat Posts: 3,577moderator
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by aelegg View Post

     

     

    I read the Russel's Teapot Wiki.  I'm sure it's maddening to hear people of Faith to say, "Just take it on Faith".

     

    What Athiests leave out are modern miracles.

    Not stories handed down from the 12th century that grow in the telling and sound like Pagan VooDoo, but modern, documented miracles.

     

    Padre Pio (see Wikipedia) was a catholic priest in Italy who died in the late 1960s.

    Thousands came from around the world to go to Confession to him.

    In cases he knew their sins without being told, and would add to the list if things were left off.

      Athiest explanation:  He's a mind-reader and is evolutionally-early, or everyone's lying.

    He bled from the wounds of Christ, known as "The Stigmata".

    Doctors examined him and found no evidence of man-made scrapes/burns etc, yet the wounds/bleeding continued.

        (When asked if they hurt, he exclaimed, "What do you think they're for, my looks!?!?!?")

    He also ate so little that not enough Calories could have been consumed to make up for the blood loss.

      Atheist explanation:  He must've hurt himself on purpose, AND the doctors are lying, and/or he's sneaking food.

    A man who lost an eye in a construction accident (with doctor's examination), was prayed over by Padre Pio and was healed.

    The healed man was also examined by doctors, who said there was no explanation for the new eye.

      Athiest explanation:  Everyone's lying including data-driven scientific doctors, and weird things happen.

    He appeared to people in visions in the America's.

      Athiest explanation:  Everyone's lying.

     

    The convents and monestaries, filled with people of Faith, would produce broken-hearted whistle-blowers ratting out fakery (as Scientology has now).

     

    Two more modern examples:

     

    See "Proof of Heaven".  The most skeptical brain-surgeon, who was convinced it's all BS (even his own patients stories of visions in which there was no way for the patient to know what they're recounting), until he had his own near-certain death from spinal-meningitis (infection numbers off the charts, brain-activity flat-lined for 1-week), and he had a heavenly experience with his separated-at-birth natural sister that he never knew about.   His book is half medical-jargon of his case, and half "experience".

      Athiest Explanation:  Weird things happen when the brain goes kablooey (that's what the brain-surgeon used to think, but the "Science" said that any random dream-generation wasn't active since he was essentially brain-dead during that time, yet has clear memories of the experience).

     

    See "Heaven is Real" (4yr old Son of a Minister who, while lying in a hospital bed near-death, saw visions of his parents and what they were doing in the hospital, an older sister who died before he was born, that he'd never been told about, Heaven, Jesus, etc.).

      Athiest Explanation:  This man of Faith must be lying just to promote his Fake God and give his life meaning.  (See whistle-blower response).

     

    The easier path for me is to consider the absurdity of two ants debating the existence of 401(k) investment plans, tax-law, or other human-understood complexities.  They'd say it's all made up craziness and they won't take it on Faith since they can't observe it.  It must not exist.

     

    Mans ways, are not Ants ways.  Ants don't have the mind to understand our thoughts, visions, creations, and plans.  We operate outside the limits of Ant-consciousness.

     

    Gods ways, are not Man's ways, and we don't have the mind to comprehend what He does.  He operates outside the limits of human consciousness.

     

    Isn't it absurd to think human-observable "Science" is the be-all end-all of everything, in light of such outside-of-Science happenings? 

     

    Are we really going to find out the Science of knowing personal things you've never been told, experiences with no detectable brain-activity, and un-explained healings?

     

    What would Mr. Russell say to modern Miracles?  If it was all made-up, then 2000 years of conspirators could never keep the story straight, and there would be whistle-blowers.

     

    Respectfully -


     

    Ha!, so here's the rub.  With no actual evidence of the existence of your god, you attribute all of the above to a god creature.  Why not attribute it to some other phenomenon?  Surely, there are an indefinite number of other explanations that could be arrived at.  But you were born into a culture and influenced by a culture where a believe in a god has been in place for a long time.  Do you really think, had you been isolated from the brainwashing of the culture you were born and raise within, that you would have independently arrived at the conclusion to all of the above as evidence of a god, a concept you might never have heard of?  Nope, you have adopted the most convenient explanation.  A person raised among a culture that believe in animism will adopt that as the explanation.  Can you not see this?  Science, does not accept the default dogma.  Therein lies the difference,  Science and those who practice it, are willing and encouraged to doubt the conclusions made by those who came before.  Without that willingness and the freedom to apply it, learning stalls.  This is why so many who are scientifically and logically minded, are so quickly frustrated with the faith explanation put forth by the religious crowd; it signifies there's no willingness to actually learn, though the religious would argue otherwise, naturally, as their ego is at stake.

  • Reply 203 of 207
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post



    I'm talking about dishonest trolling. It's not an expression of "I don't like this Apple product." It's use of hyperbole, overgeneralization, appeal to emotion, ad hominem attacks, circular reasoning, straw men, begging the question, appeal to probability, appeal to false authority, cherry picking evidence, moving goalposts, and other rhetorical devices to argue that Apple is doomed, and Tim Cook is the devil. For example: "Apple is doomed because Tim Cook has turned his back on Steve Jobs' vision of computers as 'bicycles for the mind'!! Here's a photo of Jony Ive with some shallow fashion industry people to prove my point!!"

    Apple forums will never have a shortage of ankle biters who treat the company like a folk singer who "sold out". Whenever I see a criticism of anything, my first question is, "What's the point of this?" If it's for the critic's self-aggrandizement, I just move on. Life's too short to play whack-a-mole with trolls.

  • Reply 204 of 207
    aeleggaelegg Posts: 99member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RadarTheKat View Post

    Ha!, so here's the rub.  With no actual evidence of the existence of your god......


     

    I think I understand what you're saying.  I certainly was raised with my culturally-bred "answers".

     

    What ARE the Athiest explanations for miraculous healings, Visions of heaven, hell, and purgatory experienced by Saints (with minimal whistleblowers), a skeptical hard-core nuerosurgeon who didn't believe in out-of-body experiences until he had an out-of-body experience while scientifically-shown-with-brain-wave-data to be brain-dead, etc, etc, etc?



    If these things are mysterious, and they can't all be made up on purpose, then what do Athiests typcally say?

     

    The Science for reading people's minds isn't worked out yet.

    The Science for unexplained sudden healing isn't worked out yet.

    The Science for knowing things you've never been told isn't worked out yet.

     

    Just-curious on that part of it.

     

    Respectful to all-

  • Reply 205 of 207
    radarthekatradarthekat Posts: 3,577moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by aelegg View Post

     

     

    I think I understand what you're saying.  I certainly was raised with my culturally-bred "answers".

     

    What ARE the Athiest explanations for miraculous healings, Visions of heaven, hell, and purgatory experienced by Saints (with minimal whistleblowers), a skeptical hard-core nuerosurgeon who didn't believe in out-of-body experiences until he had an out-of-body experience while scientifically-shown-with-brain-wave-data to be brain-dead, etc, etc, etc?



    If these things are mysterious, and they can't all be made up on purpose, then what do Athiests typcally say?

     

    The Science for reading people's minds isn't worked out yet.

    The Science for unexplained sudden healing isn't worked out yet.

    The Science for knowing things you've never been told isn't worked out yet.

     

    Just-curious on that part of it.

     

    Respectful to all-




    Totally beside the point.  Who cares?  I certainly am not going to spend my time chasing after these stories any more than urban myths or stories of vampires.  Trying to verify and then disclaim such silliness is a distraction from the main event; using the tools of science to plumb the depths of the natural world's many layers. 

  • Reply 206 of 207
    mr. memr. me Posts: 3,221member
    aelegg wrote: »
    I read the Russel's Teapot Wiki.  I'm sure it's maddening to hear people of Faith to say, "Just take it on Faith".

    What Athiests leave out are modern miracles.
    Not stories handed down from the 12th century that grow in the telling and sound like Pagan VooDoo, but modern, documented miracles.

    Padre Pio (see Wikipedia) was a catholic priest in Italy who died in the late 1960s.
    Thousands came from around the world to go to Confession to him.
    In cases he knew their sins without being told, and would add to the list if things were left off.
    ....

    Respectfully -
    There is a fundamental flaw with your treatise. Rejection of "modern miracles" has little to with whether or not the person is atheist or not. Ask an Evangelical Christian. As a Jew. Ask a Muslim. Ask a Buddhist or Hindu. As any number of people who adhere to any number of recognized religions around the World if they believe in such things as stigmata, appearances of the Virgin Mary in the color gradients in potato chips, or appearances of Jesus in water stains on the walls of abandoned buildings.

    If you venture outside your own little bubble, then you will learn that "People of Faith" agree on very little.
  • Reply 207 of 207
    raz0rraz0r Posts: 28member
    aelegg wrote: »
    I think I understand what you're saying.  I certainly was raised with my culturally-bred "answers".

    What ARE the Athiest explanations for miraculous healings, Visions of heaven, hell, and purgatory experienced by Saints (with minimal whistleblowers), a skeptical hard-core nuerosurgeon who didn't believe in out-of-body experiences until he had an out-of-body experience while scientifically-shown-with-brain-wave-data to be brain-dead, etc, etc, etc?

    ...

    Respectful to all-

    Respectfully, but you need to think back a little. People used to kill people because they believed that the Earth revolves around the Sun and not the other way around. We had centuries of bloodshed over spiritual beliefs, because people used the fear of the unexplainable (unexplainable at the time) to control other people and bend them to their will. This happens today, still.
    Look around, watch the news, read a little.
    I have no quarrel with someone believing in a god. I personally can't say that I have evidence pro or con. But I also won't say "this is the evidence of god because I can't explain it". People used to be unable to explain the sun, so they bowed to it and brought sacrifices to it. And then they explained it and felt a tad silly about it.
    Our visions and perceptions are limited. We perceive only the three dimensions and have only relatively recently proved the existence of the fourth. We don't know what's out there. Heck, we don't even know what's around us. And I would rather spend my days in a child-like eagerness to learn and enjoy this place than trying to convince everyone around me to believe what I believe.
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